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Saturday, June 29, 2019
Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 6
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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST
Today's Topics:
1. Dangerous Art, True AI and Posthuman Knowledge
(YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:31:42 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Dangerous Art, True AI and Posthuman
Knowledge
Message-ID:
<mailman.2.1561714511.58402.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
bill, welcome back to the yasmin village
re your comment re 'true AI"- i am more disposed to try and shift our
definitions of intelligence- in the jargon of the time we need to
become "post anthropocentric' in the ways we think about intelligence.
Braidotti has a fascinating summer school that addresses these areas
from a very different perspective of the humanities- read below the
workshop with the seminal thinking of Rosi Braidotti
https://rosibraidotti.com/summer-school/ on new approaches on thinking
about the nature of intelligence ( Rosi Braidotti is a Philosopher and
Distinguished University Professor at Utrecht University as well as
the founding director of the Centre for the Humanities in Utrecht.)
by coincidence i am at IMERA in marseille and just me the artist
abdessamad-el-montassir who is working with thierry gauquelin to
understand how the Daghmous cactus has embedeed in it the various
'memories' of post climatic and human caused traumas- abdessamad is
from south moroco where this cactus keeps morphing over the
generations- certainly a form of intelligence we may need to learn as
climate change makes current forms of human beings unsurvivable !
check out his work https://imera.univ-amu.fr/fr/resident/abdessamad-el-montassir
yasminers please join in our discussion !
roger malina
bill joel's post:
So glad Yasmin discussions are reemerging; I've missed them.
Regarding AI and Art, I'm reminded of John Cage, and his use of
I-Ching to compose music. In many ways, he was using an algorithm to
compose, just not using a computer. Is this any different from the
types of AI programming we see today? BTW, I have an issue with folks
calling what we currently have AI. I see these programs more as expert
systems. "True" AI, in my view, is "something" that can learn on its
own within any realm of knowledge.
Bill Joel
Summer School 2019
Posthuman knowledge(s)
Rosi Braidotti is a Philosopher and Distinguished University Professor
at Utrecht University as well as the founding director of the Centre
for the Humanities in Utrecht.
https://rosibraidotti.com/summer-school/
The intensive course ?Posthuman Knowledge(s)? offers an overview of
contemporary debates around the ?posthuman turn?, in the framework of
Braidotti?s brand of critical theory.
It explores the implications of the posthuman convergence of
posthumanism and postanthropocentrism for the constitution of
subjectivity, the production of knowledge and the practice of the
academic humanities. How can scholarship in the critical humanities
move beyond the old dualities in which Man/Anthropos defined himself,
beyond the hierarchical production of sexualized, racialized and
naturalized others as excluded from humanity ? To what extent do
current posthuman forms of knowledge critique anthropocentrism and
Eurocentric humanism?
In 2019, Braidotti?s intensive course will focus on ?Posthuman
Knowledge(s)? , which is also the title of Braidotti?s new monograph,
published by Polity Press. The other textbook that will be adopted for
the course is The Posthuman Glossary (Bloomsbury Academic, 2018).
The aim of this interdisciplinary course is to offer a critical
overview of the contemporary scholarship dealing with the applications
and implications of the ?posthuman turn,? for knowledge production and
research, notably in the Humanities and Social Sciences. The posthuman
turn is defined as the convergence, within the context of advanced or
cognitive capitalism, of post-humanism on the one hand and
post-anthropocentrism on the other. Although these two lines of
critical thought often overlap, they are rather distinct phenomena
both in terms of their theoretical genealogies and in their practical
applications. Their current convergence is triggering a number of
qualitative developments of a very original nature, which we will try
to study.
A related aim of the course is to introduce the participants to
Braidotti?s specific brand of neo-materialist, critical posthuman
theory. This theory rests on two main concepts: the emphasis on the
embodied and embedded, relational and affective structure of
subjectivity and the grounded and accountable nature of knowledge
claims. These aspects will be connected through the emphasis on
perspectival politics of locations on the one hand and affirmative
ethics on the other. To strengthen this aspect of the course,
participants will be required to read Braidotti?s The Posthuman
(Polity Press, 2013) prior to the start of the course.
In order to evaluate posthuman knowledge(s), the course will present,
explore and assess the defining features of a selected number of
fields within the fast-growing Posthumanities, such as the
Environmental, Digital and Medical Humanities, asking questions such
as: what is the object of enquiry of these emergent areas of research?
What is the knowing subject of the Posthumanities? How do these new
fields of knowledge affect the constitution of subjectivity and
practice of academic research today? Mindful of the differences in
power and access that structure the debate on the posthuman, we will
also investigate how posthuman knowledge(s) can assist us in moving
beyond the patterns of exclusion of the sexualized, racialized and
naturalized ?others? that were not recognized as belonging to humanity
and were also disqualified as subjects of knowledge. Special attention
will also be given to the continuing efforts to learn to think beyond
anthropocentrism.
Next to outlining the main features of the Posthumanities, the course
will also endeavour to present in a collaborative fashion ? through
panels and tutorials ? a selection of concrete case-studies drawn from
the Environmental, Digital and Medical Humanities. These cases will be
presented by teams of participating scholars from a range of
disciplines and interdisciplinary areas of research, notably:
literature and animal studies, pedagogy, media and technology studies,
legal theory, philosophy and the arts. Throughout the course, special
efforts will be made to highlight the crucial contribution of art
practices to all areas of posthuman scholarship and research.
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
https://ntlab.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr
------------------------------
End of Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 6
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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST
Today's Topics:
1. Dangerous Art, True AI and Posthuman Knowledge
(YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:31:42 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Dangerous Art, True AI and Posthuman
Knowledge
Message-ID:
<mailman.2.1561714511.58402.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
bill, welcome back to the yasmin village
re your comment re 'true AI"- i am more disposed to try and shift our
definitions of intelligence- in the jargon of the time we need to
become "post anthropocentric' in the ways we think about intelligence.
Braidotti has a fascinating summer school that addresses these areas
from a very different perspective of the humanities- read below the
workshop with the seminal thinking of Rosi Braidotti
https://rosibraidotti.com/summer-school/ on new approaches on thinking
about the nature of intelligence ( Rosi Braidotti is a Philosopher and
Distinguished University Professor at Utrecht University as well as
the founding director of the Centre for the Humanities in Utrecht.)
by coincidence i am at IMERA in marseille and just me the artist
abdessamad-el-montassir who is working with thierry gauquelin to
understand how the Daghmous cactus has embedeed in it the various
'memories' of post climatic and human caused traumas- abdessamad is
from south moroco where this cactus keeps morphing over the
generations- certainly a form of intelligence we may need to learn as
climate change makes current forms of human beings unsurvivable !
check out his work https://imera.univ-amu.fr/fr/resident/abdessamad-el-montassir
yasminers please join in our discussion !
roger malina
bill joel's post:
So glad Yasmin discussions are reemerging; I've missed them.
Regarding AI and Art, I'm reminded of John Cage, and his use of
I-Ching to compose music. In many ways, he was using an algorithm to
compose, just not using a computer. Is this any different from the
types of AI programming we see today? BTW, I have an issue with folks
calling what we currently have AI. I see these programs more as expert
systems. "True" AI, in my view, is "something" that can learn on its
own within any realm of knowledge.
Bill Joel
Summer School 2019
Posthuman knowledge(s)
Rosi Braidotti is a Philosopher and Distinguished University Professor
at Utrecht University as well as the founding director of the Centre
for the Humanities in Utrecht.
https://rosibraidotti.com/summer-school/
The intensive course ?Posthuman Knowledge(s)? offers an overview of
contemporary debates around the ?posthuman turn?, in the framework of
Braidotti?s brand of critical theory.
It explores the implications of the posthuman convergence of
posthumanism and postanthropocentrism for the constitution of
subjectivity, the production of knowledge and the practice of the
academic humanities. How can scholarship in the critical humanities
move beyond the old dualities in which Man/Anthropos defined himself,
beyond the hierarchical production of sexualized, racialized and
naturalized others as excluded from humanity ? To what extent do
current posthuman forms of knowledge critique anthropocentrism and
Eurocentric humanism?
In 2019, Braidotti?s intensive course will focus on ?Posthuman
Knowledge(s)? , which is also the title of Braidotti?s new monograph,
published by Polity Press. The other textbook that will be adopted for
the course is The Posthuman Glossary (Bloomsbury Academic, 2018).
The aim of this interdisciplinary course is to offer a critical
overview of the contemporary scholarship dealing with the applications
and implications of the ?posthuman turn,? for knowledge production and
research, notably in the Humanities and Social Sciences. The posthuman
turn is defined as the convergence, within the context of advanced or
cognitive capitalism, of post-humanism on the one hand and
post-anthropocentrism on the other. Although these two lines of
critical thought often overlap, they are rather distinct phenomena
both in terms of their theoretical genealogies and in their practical
applications. Their current convergence is triggering a number of
qualitative developments of a very original nature, which we will try
to study.
A related aim of the course is to introduce the participants to
Braidotti?s specific brand of neo-materialist, critical posthuman
theory. This theory rests on two main concepts: the emphasis on the
embodied and embedded, relational and affective structure of
subjectivity and the grounded and accountable nature of knowledge
claims. These aspects will be connected through the emphasis on
perspectival politics of locations on the one hand and affirmative
ethics on the other. To strengthen this aspect of the course,
participants will be required to read Braidotti?s The Posthuman
(Polity Press, 2013) prior to the start of the course.
In order to evaluate posthuman knowledge(s), the course will present,
explore and assess the defining features of a selected number of
fields within the fast-growing Posthumanities, such as the
Environmental, Digital and Medical Humanities, asking questions such
as: what is the object of enquiry of these emergent areas of research?
What is the knowing subject of the Posthumanities? How do these new
fields of knowledge affect the constitution of subjectivity and
practice of academic research today? Mindful of the differences in
power and access that structure the debate on the posthuman, we will
also investigate how posthuman knowledge(s) can assist us in moving
beyond the patterns of exclusion of the sexualized, racialized and
naturalized ?others? that were not recognized as belonging to humanity
and were also disqualified as subjects of knowledge. Special attention
will also be given to the continuing efforts to learn to think beyond
anthropocentrism.
Next to outlining the main features of the Posthumanities, the course
will also endeavour to present in a collaborative fashion ? through
panels and tutorials ? a selection of concrete case-studies drawn from
the Environmental, Digital and Medical Humanities. These cases will be
presented by teams of participating scholars from a range of
disciplines and interdisciplinary areas of research, notably:
literature and animal studies, pedagogy, media and technology studies,
legal theory, philosophy and the arts. Throughout the course, special
efforts will be made to highlight the crucial contribution of art
practices to all areas of posthuman scholarship and research.
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
https://ntlab.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr
------------------------------
End of Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 6
************************************************
Friday, June 28, 2019
Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 4 (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:30:51 +0000
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: "yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr" <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9,
Issue 4
Message-ID:
<mailman.0.1561667737.58402.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
So glad Yasmin discussions are reemerging; I've missed them.
Regarding AI and Art, I'm reminded of John Cage, and his use of I-Ching to compose music. In many ways, he was using an algorithm to compose, just not using a computer. Is this any different from the types of AI programming we see today? BTW, I have an issue with folks calling what we currently have AI. I see these programs more as expert systems. "True" AI, in my view, is "something" that can learn on its own within any realm of knowledge.
Bill Joel
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
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------------------------------
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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 4 (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:30:51 +0000
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: "yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr" <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9,
Issue 4
Message-ID:
<mailman.0.1561667737.58402.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
So glad Yasmin discussions are reemerging; I've missed them.
Regarding AI and Art, I'm reminded of John Cage, and his use of I-Ching to compose music. In many ways, he was using an algorithm to compose, just not using a computer. Is this any different from the types of AI programming we see today? BTW, I have an issue with folks calling what we currently have AI. I see these programs more as expert systems. "True" AI, in my view, is "something" that can learn on its own within any realm of knowledge.
Bill Joel
------------------------------
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_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
https://ntlab.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr
------------------------------
End of Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5
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Thursday, June 27, 2019
Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 4
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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST
Today's Topics:
1. AI and Art...dangerous art ? (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 18:31:08 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] AI and Art...dangerous art ?
Message-ID:
<mailman.11.1561566749.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Jon Ippolito et yasminers,
Jon ,thanks for launching the discussion AI and Art- which I fear
merits discussion- for those of us who have been around the AI track
about seven times- this time it is getting our attention. Thouseef
Syed in our ArtSciLab has developed an AI/Machine learning virtual
assigned- designed to interact with the 30 or so people who use the
lab in some way ( a hamlet in my metaphor of our being part of
archipelago of artsciencetech villages, with Leonardo and many other
boats transfering merchandise and ideas between them). The virtual
assistant is called Michele Besso (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Besso ) Besso for short.
(https://artscilab.atec.io/projects/besso)
I remember 50 years ago when Aaron Cohen had an ahha moment when his
colleague AARON who was 'born' in 1973 ( created ) (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARON ) started collaborating with him
rather than being a tool: he said "If what AARON is making is not
art, what is it exactly, and in what ways, other than its origin, does
it differ from the 'real thing?' If it is not thinking, what exactly
is it doing?"- at some point the interaction between the human and the
code became symbiotic modifying the human's thinking as well as the
code's structure. (thank you Bernard Stiegler)
Besso has been talking and listening to the lab members for about 6
months and now remembers discussions that the individual people have
forgotten and can make connections between incidents or find patterns
in the questions and answers. Besso has yet started creating art on
his own, but he will soon, I suspect, just by sonifying the data being
fed to him using our data stethoscope software
(https://atec.utdallas.edu/content/data-stethoscope/ ).
I just fininished reading Stuart Kauffman's brilliant new book (
http://malina.diatrope.com/2019/06/26/1-book-that-made-roger-happy-1-that-made-him-unhappy-1-that-he-has-yet-to-read-so-his-future-state-of-mind-is-un-prestatable-due-to-constraint-closure/)
A World Beyond Physics: The emergence of evolution and Life; Stuart A.
Kauffman, Oxford University Press, 2019 ISBN 978-0-19-087133-8. It
seems to me to be relevant to your provocations. Perhaps this time
around the degree of complexity of the internest and its associated
human and AI-beings will lead to , (his neologism)"unprestatable"
forms of life ( Roy Ascott you only had to wait 40 years
http://eejournal.no/home/2018/3/2/consciousness-in-danger-roy-ascott
I hope other YASMINERS will respond to jon's provocations below
Roger Malina
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:52:09 -0400
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
T-8
Hi everyone,
Since Yasmin appears ready to bloom again, I'll take this opportunity
to broach the subject of AI as art. To judge from a recent spate of
articles, artists may be no more immune to ouster by artificial
intelligence than truck drivers or Walmart cashiers. I have yet to
read any article that focuses on whether AI-driven art is good.
Instead they ask, is it art, or more often, can machines be
artists--and if so, will they replace artists?
The spring issue of the Swiss-based open-access journal MPDI, for
example, includes a claim that AIs can produce autonomous art by
Marian Mazzone and Ahmed Elgammal [1], as well as counterarguments by
Arthur Still and Mark d?Inverno [2] and Andreas Broeckmann [3]. Artist
Ernest Edmonds [4] argues for an intermediate position, in which AI
acts as a sort of communication medium between artists.
Apart from the general hoopla about machine learning making life
better (or taking your job), much of this art-related interest seems
precipitated by Christies' sale last October of an algorithmically
generated print for $400,000, because money. That auctioned AI is the
subject of Ian Bogost's piece for the Atlantic magazine [5], though
there are concurrent ripples in other creative industries, notably
Warner signing a record deal with a startup that makes music
algorithms [6].
While the radiologists and taxi drivers may be grappling for the first
time with whether robots will take their jobs, we artists have been
down this road before. A century ago, theorists like Walter Benjamin
wrung their hands over whether photography would make artists obsolete
thanks to its automated depiction of the natural world. Artists,
however, just kept on painting and in so doing shifted the definition
of what it meant to be an artist.
I don?t see how a similar vocational dodge will rescue doctors and
cabbies from the encroach of AI in the longer-term. However, it might
be instructive to note that most of the academic articles I cite above
implicitly or explicitly discount the idea of an artificial
intelligence as artist (5 out of 7 articles). So why the undeterred
attention on art and AI? Is it because artists are no longer the only
people capable of generating believable faces of people who don't
exist [7] or a video of the Mona Lisa chatting about the weather [8]?
My colleague and AI artist Sofian Audry pointed out that some artworld
insiders just smell a new business opportunity. They're already
thinking through the insurance risks, for chrissakes:
"If it's on a video screen, you're going to be thinking about the risk
management in the same way as you might with a Bill Viola exhibit or
another video piece. With Klingemann's AI-brain, there might be
additional risks with the algorithm itself. How do you know if the
algorithm or the artificial brain is somehow malfunctioning? If that
happens, does that constitute a damage to the work of art, or is it
simply an extension to the performance and how the artwork is
presenting itself?" [9]
At Glenn Smith's suggestion, Audry and I contributed an MDPI article
of our own. For us, the important issue is not whether an AI can be an
artist, but whether the artist that viewers construct from seeing an
AI artwork will be human or machine. Monkie selfies and computer
viruses loom large in our argument [10].
Cheers,
jon
______________________________
Jon Ippolito
Professor of New Media, University of Maine
Study Digital Curation online at http://DigitalCuration.UMaine.edu
[1] Marian Mazzone and Ahmed Elgammal, "Art, Creativity, and the
Potential of Artificial Intelligence,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/26/htm
[2] Arthur Still and Mark d?Inverno, "Can Machines Be Artists? A
Deweyan Response in Theory and Practice,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/36/htm
[3] Andreas Broeckmann, "The Machine as Artist as Myth,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/25/htm
[4] Ernest Edmonds, "Communication Machines as Art,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/22/htm
[5] Ian Bogost, "The AI-Art Gold Rush Is Here,"
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/ai-created-art-invades-chelsea-gallery-scene/584134/
[6] Dani Deahl, "Warner Music signed an algorithm to a record deal?
what happens next?"
https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283084/warner-music-algorithm-signed-ambient-music-endel
[7] Tom Simonite, "Artificial Intelligence Is Coming for Our Faces,"
https://www.wired.com/story/artificial-intelligence-fake-fakes/
[8] Devin Coldewey, "This technology can make the Mona Lisa talk (sort
of)," https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/mona-lisa-frown-machine-learning-brings-old-paintings-and-photos-to-life
[9] Bethan Moorcraft, "Klingemann?s AI-brain artwork raises intriguing
art insurance questions,"
https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/breaking-news/klingemanns-aibrain-artwork-raises-intriguing-art-insurance-questions-162464.aspx
[10] Sofian Audry and Jon Ippolito, "Can Artificial Intelligence Make
Art without Artists? Ask the Viewer,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/35/htm
------------------------------
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Today's Topics:
1. AI and Art...dangerous art ? (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 18:31:08 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] AI and Art...dangerous art ?
Message-ID:
<mailman.11.1561566749.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Jon Ippolito et yasminers,
Jon ,thanks for launching the discussion AI and Art- which I fear
merits discussion- for those of us who have been around the AI track
about seven times- this time it is getting our attention. Thouseef
Syed in our ArtSciLab has developed an AI/Machine learning virtual
assigned- designed to interact with the 30 or so people who use the
lab in some way ( a hamlet in my metaphor of our being part of
archipelago of artsciencetech villages, with Leonardo and many other
boats transfering merchandise and ideas between them). The virtual
assistant is called Michele Besso (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Besso ) Besso for short.
(https://artscilab.atec.io/projects/besso)
I remember 50 years ago when Aaron Cohen had an ahha moment when his
colleague AARON who was 'born' in 1973 ( created ) (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARON ) started collaborating with him
rather than being a tool: he said "If what AARON is making is not
art, what is it exactly, and in what ways, other than its origin, does
it differ from the 'real thing?' If it is not thinking, what exactly
is it doing?"- at some point the interaction between the human and the
code became symbiotic modifying the human's thinking as well as the
code's structure. (thank you Bernard Stiegler)
Besso has been talking and listening to the lab members for about 6
months and now remembers discussions that the individual people have
forgotten and can make connections between incidents or find patterns
in the questions and answers. Besso has yet started creating art on
his own, but he will soon, I suspect, just by sonifying the data being
fed to him using our data stethoscope software
(https://atec.utdallas.edu/content/data-stethoscope/ ).
I just fininished reading Stuart Kauffman's brilliant new book (
http://malina.diatrope.com/2019/06/26/1-book-that-made-roger-happy-1-that-made-him-unhappy-1-that-he-has-yet-to-read-so-his-future-state-of-mind-is-un-prestatable-due-to-constraint-closure/)
A World Beyond Physics: The emergence of evolution and Life; Stuart A.
Kauffman, Oxford University Press, 2019 ISBN 978-0-19-087133-8. It
seems to me to be relevant to your provocations. Perhaps this time
around the degree of complexity of the internest and its associated
human and AI-beings will lead to , (his neologism)"unprestatable"
forms of life ( Roy Ascott you only had to wait 40 years
http://eejournal.no/home/2018/3/2/consciousness-in-danger-roy-ascott
I hope other YASMINERS will respond to jon's provocations below
Roger Malina
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:52:09 -0400
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
T-8
Hi everyone,
Since Yasmin appears ready to bloom again, I'll take this opportunity
to broach the subject of AI as art. To judge from a recent spate of
articles, artists may be no more immune to ouster by artificial
intelligence than truck drivers or Walmart cashiers. I have yet to
read any article that focuses on whether AI-driven art is good.
Instead they ask, is it art, or more often, can machines be
artists--and if so, will they replace artists?
The spring issue of the Swiss-based open-access journal MPDI, for
example, includes a claim that AIs can produce autonomous art by
Marian Mazzone and Ahmed Elgammal [1], as well as counterarguments by
Arthur Still and Mark d?Inverno [2] and Andreas Broeckmann [3]. Artist
Ernest Edmonds [4] argues for an intermediate position, in which AI
acts as a sort of communication medium between artists.
Apart from the general hoopla about machine learning making life
better (or taking your job), much of this art-related interest seems
precipitated by Christies' sale last October of an algorithmically
generated print for $400,000, because money. That auctioned AI is the
subject of Ian Bogost's piece for the Atlantic magazine [5], though
there are concurrent ripples in other creative industries, notably
Warner signing a record deal with a startup that makes music
algorithms [6].
While the radiologists and taxi drivers may be grappling for the first
time with whether robots will take their jobs, we artists have been
down this road before. A century ago, theorists like Walter Benjamin
wrung their hands over whether photography would make artists obsolete
thanks to its automated depiction of the natural world. Artists,
however, just kept on painting and in so doing shifted the definition
of what it meant to be an artist.
I don?t see how a similar vocational dodge will rescue doctors and
cabbies from the encroach of AI in the longer-term. However, it might
be instructive to note that most of the academic articles I cite above
implicitly or explicitly discount the idea of an artificial
intelligence as artist (5 out of 7 articles). So why the undeterred
attention on art and AI? Is it because artists are no longer the only
people capable of generating believable faces of people who don't
exist [7] or a video of the Mona Lisa chatting about the weather [8]?
My colleague and AI artist Sofian Audry pointed out that some artworld
insiders just smell a new business opportunity. They're already
thinking through the insurance risks, for chrissakes:
"If it's on a video screen, you're going to be thinking about the risk
management in the same way as you might with a Bill Viola exhibit or
another video piece. With Klingemann's AI-brain, there might be
additional risks with the algorithm itself. How do you know if the
algorithm or the artificial brain is somehow malfunctioning? If that
happens, does that constitute a damage to the work of art, or is it
simply an extension to the performance and how the artwork is
presenting itself?" [9]
At Glenn Smith's suggestion, Audry and I contributed an MDPI article
of our own. For us, the important issue is not whether an AI can be an
artist, but whether the artist that viewers construct from seeing an
AI artwork will be human or machine. Monkie selfies and computer
viruses loom large in our argument [10].
Cheers,
jon
______________________________
Jon Ippolito
Professor of New Media, University of Maine
Study Digital Curation online at http://DigitalCuration.UMaine.edu
[1] Marian Mazzone and Ahmed Elgammal, "Art, Creativity, and the
Potential of Artificial Intelligence,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/26/htm
[2] Arthur Still and Mark d?Inverno, "Can Machines Be Artists? A
Deweyan Response in Theory and Practice,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/36/htm
[3] Andreas Broeckmann, "The Machine as Artist as Myth,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/25/htm
[4] Ernest Edmonds, "Communication Machines as Art,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/22/htm
[5] Ian Bogost, "The AI-Art Gold Rush Is Here,"
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/ai-created-art-invades-chelsea-gallery-scene/584134/
[6] Dani Deahl, "Warner Music signed an algorithm to a record deal?
what happens next?"
https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283084/warner-music-algorithm-signed-ambient-music-endel
[7] Tom Simonite, "Artificial Intelligence Is Coming for Our Faces,"
https://www.wired.com/story/artificial-intelligence-fake-fakes/
[8] Devin Coldewey, "This technology can make the Mona Lisa talk (sort
of)," https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/mona-lisa-frown-machine-learning-brings-old-paintings-and-photos-to-life
[9] Bethan Moorcraft, "Klingemann?s AI-brain artwork raises intriguing
art insurance questions,"
https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/breaking-news/klingemanns-aibrain-artwork-raises-intriguing-art-insurance-questions-162464.aspx
[10] Sofian Audry and Jon Ippolito, "Can Artificial Intelligence Make
Art without Artists? Ask the Viewer,"
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/35/htm
------------------------------
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Wednesday, June 26, 2019
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Tuesday, June 25, 2019
Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 3
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Today's Topics:
1. Art and AI in the news (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:52:09 -0400
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Art and AI in the news
Message-ID:
<mailman.9.1561396048.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi everyone,
Since Yasmin appears ready to bloom again, I'll take this opportunity to broach the subject of AI as art. To judge from a recent spate of articles, artists may be no more immune to ouster by artificial intelligence than truck drivers or Walmart cashiers. I have yet to read any article that focuses on whether AI-driven art is good. Instead they ask, is it art, or more often, can machines be artists--and if so, will they replace artists?
The spring issue of the Swiss-based open-access journal MPDI, for example, includes a claim that AIs can produce autonomous art by Marian Mazzone and Ahmed Elgammal [1], as well as counterarguments by Arthur Still and Mark d?Inverno [2] and Andreas Broeckmann [3]. Artist Ernest Edmonds [4] argues for an intermediate position, in which AI acts as a sort of communication medium between artists.
Apart from the general hoopla about machine learning making life better (or taking your job), much of this art-related interest seems precipitated by Christies' sale last October of an algorithmically generated print for $400,000, because money. That auctioned AI is the subject of Ian Bogost's piece for the Atlantic magazine [5], though there are concurrent ripples in other creative industries, notably Warner signing a record deal with a startup that makes music algorithms [6].
While the radiologists and taxi drivers may be grappling for the first time with whether robots will take their jobs, we artists have been down this road before. A century ago, theorists like Walter Benjamin wrung their hands over whether photography would make artists obsolete thanks to its automated depiction of the natural world. Artists, however, just kept on painting and in so doing shifted the definition of what it meant to be an artist.
I don?t see how a similar vocational dodge will rescue doctors and cabbies from the encroach of AI in the longer-term. However, it might be instructive to note that most of the academic articles I cite above implicitly or explicitly discount the idea of an artificial intelligence as artist (5 out of 7 articles). So why the undeterred attention on art and AI? Is it because artists are no longer the only people capable of generating believable faces of people who don't exist [7] or a video of the Mona Lisa chatting about the weather [8]? My colleague and AI artist Sofian Audry pointed out that some artworld insiders just smell a new business opportunity. They're already thinking through the insurance risks, for chrissakes:
"If it's on a video screen, you're going to be thinking about the risk management in the same way as you might with a Bill Viola exhibit or another video piece. With Klingemann's AI-brain, there might be additional risks with the algorithm itself. How do you know if the algorithm or the artificial brain is somehow malfunctioning? If that happens, does that constitute a damage to the work of art, or is it simply an extension to the performance and how the artwork is presenting itself?" [9]
At Glenn Smith's suggestion, Audry and I contributed an MDPI article of our own. For us, the important issue is not whether an AI can be an artist, but whether the artist that viewers construct from seeing an AI artwork will be human or machine. Monkie selfies and computer viruses loom large in our argument [10].
Cheers,
jon
______________________________
Jon Ippolito
Professor of New Media, University of Maine
Study Digital Curation online at http://DigitalCuration.UMaine.edu
[1] Marian Mazzone and Ahmed Elgammal, "Art, Creativity, and the Potential of Artificial Intelligence," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/26/htm
[2] Arthur Still and Mark d?Inverno, "Can Machines Be Artists? A Deweyan Response in Theory and Practice," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/36/htm
[3] Andreas Broeckmann, "The Machine as Artist as Myth," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/25/htm
[4] Ernest Edmonds, "Communication Machines as Art," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/22/htm
[5] Ian Bogost, "The AI-Art Gold Rush Is Here," https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/ai-created-art-invades-chelsea-gallery-scene/584134/
[6] Dani Deahl, "Warner Music signed an algorithm to a record deal? what happens next?" https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283084/warner-music-algorithm-signed-ambient-music-endel
[7] Tom Simonite, "Artificial Intelligence Is Coming for Our Faces," https://www.wired.com/story/artificial-intelligence-fake-fakes/
[8] Devin Coldewey, "This technology can make the Mona Lisa talk (sort of)," https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/mona-lisa-frown-machine-learning-brings-old-paintings-and-photos-to-life
[9] Bethan Moorcraft, "Klingemann?s AI-brain artwork raises intriguing art insurance questions," https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/breaking-news/klingemanns-aibrain-artwork-raises-intriguing-art-insurance-questions-162464.aspx
[10] Sofian Audry and Jon Ippolito, "Can Artificial Intelligence Make Art without Artists? Ask the Viewer," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/35/htm
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
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------------------------------
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1. Art and AI in the news (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:52:09 -0400
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Art and AI in the news
Message-ID:
<mailman.9.1561396048.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi everyone,
Since Yasmin appears ready to bloom again, I'll take this opportunity to broach the subject of AI as art. To judge from a recent spate of articles, artists may be no more immune to ouster by artificial intelligence than truck drivers or Walmart cashiers. I have yet to read any article that focuses on whether AI-driven art is good. Instead they ask, is it art, or more often, can machines be artists--and if so, will they replace artists?
The spring issue of the Swiss-based open-access journal MPDI, for example, includes a claim that AIs can produce autonomous art by Marian Mazzone and Ahmed Elgammal [1], as well as counterarguments by Arthur Still and Mark d?Inverno [2] and Andreas Broeckmann [3]. Artist Ernest Edmonds [4] argues for an intermediate position, in which AI acts as a sort of communication medium between artists.
Apart from the general hoopla about machine learning making life better (or taking your job), much of this art-related interest seems precipitated by Christies' sale last October of an algorithmically generated print for $400,000, because money. That auctioned AI is the subject of Ian Bogost's piece for the Atlantic magazine [5], though there are concurrent ripples in other creative industries, notably Warner signing a record deal with a startup that makes music algorithms [6].
While the radiologists and taxi drivers may be grappling for the first time with whether robots will take their jobs, we artists have been down this road before. A century ago, theorists like Walter Benjamin wrung their hands over whether photography would make artists obsolete thanks to its automated depiction of the natural world. Artists, however, just kept on painting and in so doing shifted the definition of what it meant to be an artist.
I don?t see how a similar vocational dodge will rescue doctors and cabbies from the encroach of AI in the longer-term. However, it might be instructive to note that most of the academic articles I cite above implicitly or explicitly discount the idea of an artificial intelligence as artist (5 out of 7 articles). So why the undeterred attention on art and AI? Is it because artists are no longer the only people capable of generating believable faces of people who don't exist [7] or a video of the Mona Lisa chatting about the weather [8]? My colleague and AI artist Sofian Audry pointed out that some artworld insiders just smell a new business opportunity. They're already thinking through the insurance risks, for chrissakes:
"If it's on a video screen, you're going to be thinking about the risk management in the same way as you might with a Bill Viola exhibit or another video piece. With Klingemann's AI-brain, there might be additional risks with the algorithm itself. How do you know if the algorithm or the artificial brain is somehow malfunctioning? If that happens, does that constitute a damage to the work of art, or is it simply an extension to the performance and how the artwork is presenting itself?" [9]
At Glenn Smith's suggestion, Audry and I contributed an MDPI article of our own. For us, the important issue is not whether an AI can be an artist, but whether the artist that viewers construct from seeing an AI artwork will be human or machine. Monkie selfies and computer viruses loom large in our argument [10].
Cheers,
jon
______________________________
Jon Ippolito
Professor of New Media, University of Maine
Study Digital Curation online at http://DigitalCuration.UMaine.edu
[1] Marian Mazzone and Ahmed Elgammal, "Art, Creativity, and the Potential of Artificial Intelligence," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/26/htm
[2] Arthur Still and Mark d?Inverno, "Can Machines Be Artists? A Deweyan Response in Theory and Practice," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/36/htm
[3] Andreas Broeckmann, "The Machine as Artist as Myth," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/25/htm
[4] Ernest Edmonds, "Communication Machines as Art," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/22/htm
[5] Ian Bogost, "The AI-Art Gold Rush Is Here," https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/ai-created-art-invades-chelsea-gallery-scene/584134/
[6] Dani Deahl, "Warner Music signed an algorithm to a record deal? what happens next?" https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283084/warner-music-algorithm-signed-ambient-music-endel
[7] Tom Simonite, "Artificial Intelligence Is Coming for Our Faces," https://www.wired.com/story/artificial-intelligence-fake-fakes/
[8] Devin Coldewey, "This technology can make the Mona Lisa talk (sort of)," https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/mona-lisa-frown-machine-learning-brings-old-paintings-and-photos-to-life
[9] Bethan Moorcraft, "Klingemann?s AI-brain artwork raises intriguing art insurance questions," https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/breaking-news/klingemanns-aibrain-artwork-raises-intriguing-art-insurance-questions-162464.aspx
[10] Sofian Audry and Jon Ippolito, "Can Artificial Intelligence Make Art without Artists? Ask the Viewer," https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/8/1/35/htm
------------------------------
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Monday, June 24, 2019
Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 2
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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST
Today's Topics:
1. Leonard@ (S)montaggio Transdisciplinare a 500 anni da
Leonardo (Padova, Italy) (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
2. Alex Adriaansens (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
3. yasmin mutamorphosis ? (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 11:01:24 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Leonard@ (S)montaggio Transdisciplinare
a 500 anni da Leonardo (Padova, Italy)
Message-ID:
<mailman.0.1561286443.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Dear Jasminers in ITALY,
on June 8th prof. Valeria Cotaimich ( Universidad Nacional de C?rdoba,
Argentina) will have a talk about Leonardo and Aby Warburg:
*Leonard@ (S)MONTAGGIO TRANSDISCIPLINARE a 500 anni da Da Vinci e 90 anni
da Aby Warburg -Tempo e storia in movimento tra Arte e Scienza*
You are invited. Info:
https://www.facebook.com/events/916066825395570/
Greetings
Antonio Irre Catalano
*antonioirre.wordpress.com <http://antonioirre.wordpress.com>*
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 17:17:31 +0100
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Alex Adriaansens
Message-ID:
<mailman.1.1561286466.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hallo
i received the new of the death for cancer of Alex Adriaansen, curator and director of V2Lab and V2 Organization.
He leaves an empty space, because for 35 years he has been an activist of digital media languages, producing experiments and festivals.
I knew him since early 90?s and i had for him great exteem and affection, i invited him to talk at the University in Rome and we met through the years in many festivals and conventions.
He was always enthusiastic and lively and he well represented the energies and passions of the birth of digital counterculture.
The Festival in Rotterdam will continue.
I think that a subject of discussions could be the meaning of today?s different festivals and how they express the contents we are living now in the digital culture.
And that was one of the targets Alex had.
Lorenzo Taiuti
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:37:42 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] yasmin mutamorphosis ?
Message-ID:
<mailman.4.1561293765.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
dear yasminers
YASMIN is about to start blooming again- as you noticed we have been
hibernating- but you will see below news from dimitris charitos
some of you will remember our exciting meetings in Prague for Mutamorphosis
organised by CIANT now more than 13 years ago
https://mutamorphosis.wordpress.com/about/
Dimitris Charitos is working on a reunion of the yasmin archipelago of
art/sci/tech villagers june of next year= put it on your calendar- and the
yasmin moderators are stirring again to see how we reinvent yasmin for the
next decade of the 2020s- if you have ideas please do contact us-yasmin is
a gift exchange economy and if you are interested in joinging the
moderation group please do volunteer !
Roger Malina
here is the annoucements from Dimitris
Dear Roger, dear Nina,
.
* we are building an interactive installation for the City of Athens in
public space with real time urban data
visualization/oraliasation/tactilisation etc. and this is the most comlex
artwork I ve done so far and it has to be delivered by the end of July
* I was appointed head of the new department of Digital Arts and Cinema of
our University which means that I have to build this whole thing from
scratch and it has to start to function this coming September!!!
Overwhelming but great and wonderful challenges though and I am looking
forward to chatting with you about all this. Don?t forget our YASMIN
meeting in about a year's time in Athens (22-23 June 2020) and I am looking
forward to seeing you very much !!!!
Dimitris Charitos
roger malina is in Paris
------------------------------
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Today's Topics:
1. Leonard@ (S)montaggio Transdisciplinare a 500 anni da
Leonardo (Padova, Italy) (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
2. Alex Adriaansens (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
3. yasmin mutamorphosis ? (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 11:01:24 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Leonard@ (S)montaggio Transdisciplinare
a 500 anni da Leonardo (Padova, Italy)
Message-ID:
<mailman.0.1561286443.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Dear Jasminers in ITALY,
on June 8th prof. Valeria Cotaimich ( Universidad Nacional de C?rdoba,
Argentina) will have a talk about Leonardo and Aby Warburg:
*Leonard@ (S)MONTAGGIO TRANSDISCIPLINARE a 500 anni da Da Vinci e 90 anni
da Aby Warburg -Tempo e storia in movimento tra Arte e Scienza*
You are invited. Info:
https://www.facebook.com/events/916066825395570/
Greetings
Antonio Irre Catalano
*antonioirre.wordpress.com <http://antonioirre.wordpress.com>*
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 17:17:31 +0100
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Alex Adriaansens
Message-ID:
<mailman.1.1561286466.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hallo
i received the new of the death for cancer of Alex Adriaansen, curator and director of V2Lab and V2 Organization.
He leaves an empty space, because for 35 years he has been an activist of digital media languages, producing experiments and festivals.
I knew him since early 90?s and i had for him great exteem and affection, i invited him to talk at the University in Rome and we met through the years in many festivals and conventions.
He was always enthusiastic and lively and he well represented the energies and passions of the birth of digital counterculture.
The Festival in Rotterdam will continue.
I think that a subject of discussions could be the meaning of today?s different festivals and how they express the contents we are living now in the digital culture.
And that was one of the targets Alex had.
Lorenzo Taiuti
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:37:42 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] yasmin mutamorphosis ?
Message-ID:
<mailman.4.1561293765.25463.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
dear yasminers
YASMIN is about to start blooming again- as you noticed we have been
hibernating- but you will see below news from dimitris charitos
some of you will remember our exciting meetings in Prague for Mutamorphosis
organised by CIANT now more than 13 years ago
https://mutamorphosis.wordpress.com/about/
Dimitris Charitos is working on a reunion of the yasmin archipelago of
art/sci/tech villagers june of next year= put it on your calendar- and the
yasmin moderators are stirring again to see how we reinvent yasmin for the
next decade of the 2020s- if you have ideas please do contact us-yasmin is
a gift exchange economy and if you are interested in joinging the
moderation group please do volunteer !
Roger Malina
here is the annoucements from Dimitris
Dear Roger, dear Nina,
.
* we are building an interactive installation for the City of Athens in
public space with real time urban data
visualization/oraliasation/tactilisation etc. and this is the most comlex
artwork I ve done so far and it has to be delivered by the end of July
* I was appointed head of the new department of Digital Arts and Cinema of
our University which means that I have to build this whole thing from
scratch and it has to start to function this coming September!!!
Overwhelming but great and wonderful challenges though and I am looking
forward to chatting with you about all this. Don?t forget our YASMIN
meeting in about a year's time in Athens (22-23 June 2020) and I am looking
forward to seeing you very much !!!!
Dimitris Charitos
roger malina is in Paris
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End of Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 9, Issue 2
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