Paul
I would like to better understand how artists use the word "abstract" since it
might be at odds with the non-art definition. From my understanding of your
argument, concrete art is a type of abstract art and concrete art presumably has
no representation whereas abstract art can be representational of some external
phenomenon (or "figurative")? So that I can educate myself on how artists use
the word "abstract," can you provide an artistic example of something that is considered
abstract by art historians but that is in fact figurative? I would hope also that art
historians have definitions of "concrete" vs. "abstract" by virtue of formal characteristics
of a work, rather than as a function of when it was produced or by whom. In other words, we
should be able to apply your definitions of abstract and concrete to arbitrary creations.
-p
On Oct 11, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Paul Brown <paul@paul-brown.com> wrote:
> Hi Roger
>
> My comments were certainly not meant to undermine the value of art/science/engineering collaboration/education but just intended to comment on the misuse of the word 'abstract' in an earlier post.
>
> In the UK (and possibly elsewhere in the English language users world) the word abstract is often confused with 'non figurative'. As someone who studied with the British system's artists in the 1960's and 70's I believe that the genre which we can roughly describe with the term art concret is one that is closest to science in it's basic remit (about discovering things) although the abstractionist Bierdermann believed the same.
>
> Well, anyway, I'm sorry if my comments were not clear.
>
> All the best
> Paul
>
>
> On 11 Oct 2013, at 04:40, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> yasminers
>>
>> I never imagine that my referring to the web site
>> on the need to contextual mathematics would launch
>> this discussion on the root of all evil but paul and simon's
>> responses have focused the discussion on the basic argument
>> that the root bernstein's are making about the evidence that
>> scientists and engineers work as better as scientists and
>> engineers if they are also involve in arts and crafts in
>> their early education
>>
>> this is the basic argument in the stem to steam argument
>>
>> the way we have organised education we put art and
>> science in separate streams as if they were not
>> fundamentally linked in human curiosity and imagination
>>
>>
>> anecdote: in a discussion with someone responsible
>> for programming in Marseille as the european city
>> of culture- i got a response that " science is not part
>> of culture'
>>
>> wow
>>
>> what he meant was that the minister of culture in france
>> which was the lead ministry for the city of culture did
>> not fund " science outreach or education"
>>
>> science is part of culture and children dont care
>> which agency is funding what
>>
>> paul : of course there is a rational for
>> pure math= but thats not the issue here=the
>> issue is how in primary and secondary education
>> we create a context=driven by student interest
>> and imagination- we teaching in a way that motivates
>> and captures the motivation of young children
>>
>> anecdote: in my undergraduate education i had
>> the pleasure of taking a class on statistics and
>> probability from the celebrated mathematician
>>
>> we certainly learned pure math -but what i remember
>> is that all the math was continously contextualised
>> in social contexts and applications ( gambling at las
>> vegas. sociology. politics etc) i did great in that course
>> but the next semester i took a course in mathematical
>> logic and i got the first C grade as a student- it just
>> didnt connect
>>
>> the arts and crafts are one way to powerfully
>> contextualise science and mathematics and
>> motivate students= and in addition the evidence
>> that root bernsteins show is that the children that
>> learn that way make better scientists and engineers
>>
>> roger
>>
>> The term "naked math" refers to mathematics without context. Mathematics
>>> "within a context" usually refers to mathematical modeling -- that the
>>> mathematics models or represents something in the real world. My point
>>> was simply to rephrase this in terms of something that the Yasmin group
>>> might find equally appalling (or not?): what is the art analogy of naked
>>> math? It would probably fall into the general area of abstract art -- something
>>> performed and executed that is not representational of the world, and so
>>> is equally as "naked".
>>
>> --
>> Roger F Malina
>> Is in Dallas right now
>> please contact me by email but
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> ====
> Paul Brown - based in the UK April to October 2013
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> ====
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> ====
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> ====
> Paul Brown - based in the UK April to October 2013
> http://www.paul-brown.com == http://www.brown-and-son.com
> UK Mobile +44 (0)794 104 8228
> Skype paul-g-brown
> ====
> Honorary Visiting Professor - Sussex University
> http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/ccnr/research/creativity.html
> ====
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Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology
and Professor of Computer Science
Director, Creative Automata Laboratory
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
Home: utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
Blog: creative-automata.com
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