Sunday, May 29, 2016

[Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange; Science is not Art

Ken, Joost
Yes indeed the Jones review and your points reinforce many of the uneasy
Discussions about "art in service of science' and "science in service of art"=
There is a whole range of practices between these two ends of the spectrum
And Jones clearly wants=he says
"Isn't it time we stopped expecting artists to understand the complexities of science?..
This is not a work of art about physics. It is a work of art about how crazy everything is. That's a trivial misunderstanding of what goes on at Cern, surely."

Presumably he would pan the stained glass windows at Chartres as insufficiently
Explanatory , and yes Duchamp the viewer completes the work of art…

Ken you state:" The key issue between these two kinds of discussions is the difference between the ways in which we can understand human beings, how they think, how they behave, and what their behaviour means ― including those forms of human behaviour that include speech acts, and the artefacts of behaviour in the form of written texts and works of art."

Another take on this point comes from" Slingerland's Creating Consilience
Integrating the Sciences and the Humanities" where he argues for a different axis
Of thinking which looks at how we have to shift points of view as we change scale
In space ( nano, mico, mill, km, light year) or time ( pico, milli, year, millennium, billion)
Or group size ( individual, duo, group, community, country, civilization)- the concept
Of the humanities only makes sense at certain scales- just as quantum mechanics is
Not the right frame of the behavior of trees.

So I certainly subscribe to the ways of knowing argument- but its not just
Art or science, it's also an interleaving of different approaches at different scales
And as we know from the sciences of complexity and emergence even
The concept of causality changes

If anyone has seen Ryoji's Ikeda's work it would be great to have a witness
Report !

roger



Dear list,

I have not seen the work (I suspect the piece resembles other pieces by Ikeda I have seen and liked), but a scathing review by Jonathan Jones I would certainly put on my CV...

In my view he is one of these rather surprising cases (opera being another) where it seems that art critics of the Guardian are just not the right people to review anything conceived after the industrial revolution.


not a very thorough response, I admit,

kind regards,

Joost Rekveld
Dear Roger & Fellow Yasminers,

One of the crucial differences between art and science is that art represents and expresses the views of the artist. Art also involves a viewer or receiver. As Duchamp used to say, the viewer completes the work of art. But this isn't merely Duchamp's opinion: this is a fundamental proposition of symbolic interactionism as a method in the social sciences, and this is the core understanding of hermeneutics. For a deeper discussion of these issues, I have posted Herbert Blumer's concise, elegant discussion of the methodological perspective of symbolic interaction in the teaching documents section of my Academia page at URL:

https://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman

The clarity and precision of the natural sciences arises from the fact that the equations and propositions of natural science reflect and represent a world that should be the same to all viewers. While there are often differences of opinion about the truth, correctness, or value of what any one scientist or research team may represent about the physical world, there are also reasonably common standards that permit us to reach a common view over time.

One of Albert Einstein's great papers of 1905 was his paper on Brownian motion. He published this at a time when no one was yet able to physically see an atom. Many scientists doubted the physical reality of atomic theory ― and this included a great many scientists who accepted the hypothetical use of atomic theory for heuristic or didactic purposes while doubting the physical reality of atomism.

Einstein's paper, "On the Motion of Small Particles Suspended in Liquids at Rest Required by the Molecular-Kinetic Theory of Heat"
examined several well-known physical and chemical facts, drawing together well established evidence to demonstrate the physical reality of atoms. As a result, many scientists who had been skeptical about the reality of atoms became convinced that atoms were, in fact, real. You can read the paper (in Satchel 1998: 71-98) for yourself on my Academia page at URL:

https://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman

The key issue between these two kinds of discussions is the difference between the ways in which we can understand human beings, how they think, how they behave, and what their behaviour means ― including those forms of human behaviour that include speech acts, and the artefacts of behaviour in the form of written texts and works of art.

Not only do human actions change over time, but the meanings of human actions change over time. What's more, the understanding of human actions, human artefacts, and their meaning undergo translation by everyone who hears, sees, or participates in any action.

An atom of carbon will be the same as any other atom of carbon in the universe. Gravitation is the same force wherever we can look and wherever we can measure it. Certain predictable factors account for measurable differences ― different isotopes of any element, differences in the strength of gravity on the surface of a large planet as against the force of gravity in space outside the pantry atmosphere.

In contrast, my idea of a good beer may differ to the ideas of those five people at the table next to me. I'll order a bottle of India Pale Ale from the case and not the refrigerator while the next table has five frosty glasses of house lager on tap. Someone may enjoy Aaron Copland's film scores while someone else might prefer Danny Elfman's work, and yet another person might enjoy them equally. One viewer may love Ryoji Ikeda's work and another may not. I am puzzled about the multimillion dollar sums that Jeff Koons's work take at auction when someone can buy a beautiful print by Dieter Roth or a painting by Dick Higgins for a 5-figure sum.

It is for this reason that I read Jonathan Jones's review of Ryoji Ikeda's Supersymmetry installation without too much feeling either way. The artist responded to scientific ideas, but Ikeda's installation is art and not science. It is very much the same thing as a musician composing works to reflect a sense of what early astronomers called "the music of the spheres." Jones's review tells me what Jones thinks ― it doesn't tell me what I think.

I haven't seen the installation for myself, so I have no idea about it from first-hand experience. I did read the review, but the review doesn't seem any more harsh than other kinds of reviews. If you want to read some truly withering criticism, take a look at Nicolas Slonimsky's Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers Since Beethoven's Time. I suppose that a similar collection may exist for visual art, but I haven't seen it. There are two interesting books of rejection letter from publishers and others, however. One is Bill Shapiro's Other People's Rejection Letters: Relationship Enders, Career Killers, and 150 Other Letters You'll Be Glad You Didn't Receive. The other is Rotten Rejections: The Letters That Publishers Wish They'd Never Sent by Andre Bernard.

Duchamp used to say "posterity will be the judge." We'll eventually find out whether Ikeda's work or Jones's opinion prevails.

Yours,

Ken

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | 设计 She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Saturday, May 28, 2016

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] scathing review of Ryoji Ikeda's art project from CERN residency

Dear Roger,

A very interesting set of questions to arise at this point in time of intense mutual admiration between art and science and lack of responsible criticism in the arts and as science falls prey to conservative doubting, at least in States, and what I would argue is an over determination from technology sectors in education.

Perhaps it's not so much that artists should "understand" or take a deeply creative interest in mimicking science in their practices, but that both can learn different sets of questions and directions for research from each other and that deep critique both positive and negative is needed in both fields. We have enough problems to solve on this planet!

I had a chat with Erik Davis after a presentation he did about psychedelia in which he screened early CIA scientific experiments with LSD - controlled in a white office, with clock, with men in ties. If this is "objectivity" about the type of mystical experience possible on psilocybin then scientists have missed something crucial about aesthetics and sensual pleasure in affecting mind-alteration. He also talked about a recent study done at Johns Hopkins where it was determined that there was some kind of universally-had mystical experience. Presumably this more recent study used control environments more conducive to tripping than the CIA did in the sixties.

My point being that Science could gain important insights into how it is posing questions and proving its ideas from artists and artists would do well not to treat their own practices as if Art were for producing results that need to be proved--what has seemed a creeping concern in both criticism and practice and a peculiar (funding driven?) demand on artists in the last decade.

Molly Hankwitz, PhD
Independent scholar, curator, editor
Bivoulab "scientist"



> On May 27, 2016, at 1:13 PM, Malina, Roger <rxm116130@utdallas.edu> wrote:
>
> Yasminers
>
> Here is a very very negative review of Ryoji's Ikeda's art installation resulting from his cern residency
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>
> Should art respond to science? On this evidence, the answer is simple: no way
> Japanese artist Ryoji Ikeda's installation Supersymmetry is inspired by his residency at Cern -
> but signifies little more than that physics is weird. Isn't it time we stopped expecting artists to understand the complexities of science?
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>
> this is very much along the lines of my colleague Jean Marc Levy=Lebond's book 'Science is not art' where he attacks
> much of the mystification of art science practice
>
> the review ends with:
>
> Art<https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/art> and science, we feel, should have something to say to each other. But perhaps they speak different languages after all. I don't speak the language of science too
> well, either, but I do know one thing: it is concerned with the wonder of nature. There is a depressing lack of wonder in this technically sophisticated but intellectually and emotionally empty art.
>
> would be interested in Yasminer reactions= has anyone seen the work ?
>
> roger malina
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] scathing review of Ryoji Ikeda's art project from CERN residency

Dear list,

I have not seen the work (I suspect the piece resembles other pieces by
Ikeda I have seen and liked), but a scathing review by Jonathan Jones I
would certainly put on my CV...

In my view he is one of these rather surprising cases (opera being
another) where it seems that art critics of the Guardian are just not
the right people to review anything conceived after the industrial
revolution.


not a very thorough response, I admit,

kind regards,

Joost Rekveld.





On 2016-05-27 22:13, Malina, Roger wrote:
> Yasminers
>
> Here is a very very negative review of Ryoji's Ikeda's art
> installation resulting from his cern residency
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>
> Should art respond to science? On this evidence, the answer is simple:
> no way
> Japanese artist Ryoji Ikeda's installation Supersymmetry is inspired
> by his residency at Cern -
> but signifies little more than that physics is weird. Isn't it time we
> stopped expecting artists to understand the complexities of science?
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>
> this is very much along the lines of my colleague Jean Marc
> Levy=Lebond's book 'Science is not art' where he attacks
> much of the mystification of art science practice
>
> the review ends with:
>
> Art<https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/art> and science, we
> feel, should have something to say to each other. But perhaps they
> speak different languages after all. I don't speak the language of
> science too
> well, either, but I do know one thing: it is concerned with the wonder
> of nature. There is a depressing lack of wonder in this technically
> sophisticated but intellectually and emotionally empty art.
>
> would be interested in Yasminer reactions= has anyone seen the work ?
>
> roger malina
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
> the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
> and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked.
> Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options
> page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] scathing review of Ryoji Ikeda's art project from CERN residency

Dear Roger & Fellow Yasminers,

One of the crucial differences between art and science is that art represents and expresses the views of the artist. Art also involves a viewer or receiver. As Duchamp used to say, the viewer completes the work of art. But this isn't merely Duchamp's opinion: this is a fundamental proposition of symbolic interactionism as a method in the social sciences, and this is the core understanding of hermeneutics. For a deeper discussion of these issues, I have posted Herbert Blumer's concise, elegant discussion of the methodological perspective of symbolic interaction in the teaching documents section of my Academia page at URL:

https://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman

The clarity and precision of the natural sciences arises from the fact that the equations and propositions of natural science reflect and represent a world that should be the same to all viewers. While there are often differences of opinion about the truth, correctness, or value of what any one scientist or research team may represent about the physical world, there are also reasonably common standards that permit us to reach a common view over time.

One of Albert Einstein's great papers of 1905 was his paper on Brownian motion. He published this at a time when no one was yet able to physically see an atom. Many scientists doubted the physical reality of atomic theory — and this included a great many scientists who accepted the hypothetical use of atomic theory for heuristic or didactic purposes while doubting the physical reality of atomism.

Einstein's paper, "On the Motion of Small Particles Suspended in Liquids at Rest Required by the Molecular-Kinetic Theory of Heat"
examined several well-known physical and chemical facts, drawing together well established evidence to demonstrate the physical reality of atoms. As a result, many scientists who had been skeptical about the reality of atoms became convinced that atoms were, in fact, real. You can read the paper (in Satchel 1998: 71-98) for yourself on my Academia page at URL:

https://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman

The key issue between these two kinds of discussions is the difference between the ways in which we can understand human beings, how they think, how they behave, and what their behaviour means — including those forms of human behaviour that include speech acts, and the artefacts of behaviour in the form of written texts and works of art.

Not only do human actions change over time, but the meanings of human actions change over time. What's more, the understanding of human actions, human artefacts, and their meaning undergo translation by everyone who hears, sees, or participates in any action.

An atom of carbon will be the same as any other atom of carbon in the universe. Gravitation is the same force wherever we can look and wherever we can measure it. Certain predictable factors account for measurable differences — different isotopes of any element, differences in the strength of gravity on the surface of a large planet as against the force of gravity in space outside the pantry atmosphere.

In contrast, my idea of a good beer may differ to the ideas of those five people at the table next to me. I'll order a bottle of India Pale Ale from the case and not the refrigerator while the next table has five frosty glasses of house lager on tap. Someone may enjoy Aaron Copland's film scores while someone else might prefer Danny Elfman's work, and yet another person might enjoy them equally. One viewer may love Ryoji Ikeda's work and another may not. I am puzzled about the multimillion dollar sums that Jeff Koons's work take at auction when someone can buy a beautiful print by Dieter Roth or a painting by Dick Higgins for a 5-figure sum.

It is for this reason that I read Jonathan Jones's review of Ryoji Ikeda's Supersymmetry installation without too much feeling either way. The artist responded to scientific ideas, but Ikeda's installation is art and not science. It is very much the same thing as a musician composing works to reflect a sense of what early astronomers called "the music of the spheres." Jones's review tells me what Jones thinks — it doesn't tell me what I think.

I haven't seen the installation for myself, so I have no idea about it from first-hand experience. I did read the review, but the review doesn't seem any more harsh than other kinds of reviews. If you want to read some truly withering criticism, take a look at Nicolas Slonimsky's Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers Since Beethoven's Time. I suppose that a similar collection may exist for visual art, but I haven't seen it. There are two interesting books of rejection letter from publishers and others, however. One is Bill Shapiro's Other People's Rejection Letters: Relationship Enders, Career Killers, and 150 Other Letters You'll Be Glad You Didn't Receive. The other is Rotten Rejections: The Letters That Publishers Wish They'd Never Sent by Andre Bernard.

Duchamp used to say "posterity will be the judge." We'll eventually find out whether Ikeda's work or Jones's opinion prevails.

Yours,

Ken

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | 设计 She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/

Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia

--

> On 2016May27, at 22:13, Malina, Roger <rxm116130@utdallas.edu> wrote:
>
> Yasminers
>
> Here is a very very negative review of Ryoji's Ikeda's art installation resulting from his cern residency
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>
> Should art respond to science? On this evidence, the answer is simple: no way
> Japanese artist Ryoji Ikeda's installation Supersymmetry is inspired by his residency at Cern -
> but signifies little more than that physics is weird. Isn't it time we stopped expecting artists to understand the complexities of science?
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>
> this is very much along the lines of my colleague Jean Marc Levy=Lebond's book 'Science is not art' where he attacks
> much of the mystification of art science practice
>
> the review ends with:
>
> Art<https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/art> and science, we feel, should have something to say to each other. But perhaps they speak different languages after all. I don't speak the language of science too
> well, either, but I do know one thing: it is concerned with the wonder of nature. There is a depressing lack of wonder in this technically sophisticated but intellectually and emotionally empty art.
>
> would be interested in Yasminer reactions= has anyone seen the work ?
>
> roger malina


_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Friday, May 27, 2016

[Yasmin_discussions] scathing review of Ryoji Ikeda's art project from CERN residency

Yasminers

Here is a very very negative review of Ryoji's Ikeda's art installation resulting from his cern residency

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry

Should art respond to science? On this evidence, the answer is simple: no way
Japanese artist Ryoji Ikeda's installation Supersymmetry is inspired by his residency at Cern -
but signifies little more than that physics is weird. Isn't it time we stopped expecting artists to understand the complexities of science?

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry

this is very much along the lines of my colleague Jean Marc Levy=Lebond's book 'Science is not art' where he attacks
much of the mystification of art science practice

the review ends with:

Art<https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/art> and science, we feel, should have something to say to each other. But perhaps they speak different languages after all. I don't speak the language of science too
well, either, but I do know one thing: it is concerned with the wonder of nature. There is a depressing lack of wonder in this technically sophisticated but intellectually and emotionally empty art.

would be interested in Yasminer reactions= has anyone seen the work ?

roger malina

_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Wednesday, May 25, 2016

[Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange: Exemplars of artscience practice ?

Glenn

Much appreciated your email with your list of existing works of art which have special meaning for you as reflecting the art/science dialog - I note that all the artists you mention are..no longer alive !! Do you have a list of artworks of living artists that you would
Cite as 'exemplars' as reflecting the art/science dialog

I would personally have on my list for instance:

Char Davies and her immersive work Ephemere from 1998-
http://www.immersence.com/
I remember the impact this work had on me because of the way she imposed her aesthetic values on the navigable world she created, but also the 'breathing' interface that allowed one to navigate like a diver in water.

The work doesn't deal with a scientific 'topic' as such but the artist uses innovative technology to create a sensory experience that could not be achieved any other way. I am working on a team creating 'data forests' out of brain network data- and whenever I see our own immersive visualisations I think back to the impact of Char Davies work. As such it has influenced by own scientific practice 20 years later.

Maybe other yasminers could existing works of art which have special meaning for you as reflecting the art/science dialog

Dear Guillermo, Nicola, Alessandro, Annick, Chris, John, Ken:

As I along with many others follow this delightfully titled dialogue
-- "Mercado Central Exchange" -- regarding the problems and
promises of a hybrid art/science practice, the heartfelt nature
of your contributions convinces me at last that there is a cadre
within the scientific community which will not rest until and unless
science recognizes art as a phenomenon with which it must come
to terms, both as a subject of investigation, and also as an influence
on, and reflection of, its own practice; and it is the latter on which I
would now like to focus: how fascinating it would be to hear about
those existing works of art which have special meaning for you as
reflecting the art/science dialog; and I would like to start the parade
by listing my own favorites:

Salvator Rosa's 1650 "Democritus in Meditation"
http://www.wga.hu/html_m/r/rosa/democrit.html
(the theme of which is self-evident)

Rodin's 1876 "Age of Bronze"
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/07.127/
(humanity confronting the nightmare of its evolutionary origin)

Giacometti's 1947 "Man Pointing"
http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/giacometti-man-pointing-n05939
(humanity standing in the face of nuclear incineration)

Regards,
G. W. (Glenn) Smith
www.space-machines.com<http://www.space-machines.com/>
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

[Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange: Niki Baccile

Yasminers

Eduardo Kac referred us to scientist Niki Baccile who has an art science practice in France- here are his answers to our questions to scientists

1 - what is your background as a scientist? In the arts, design or humanities ?

My name is Niki Baccile and I am a researcher in materials' science and physical-chemistry. I have a PhD in these disciplines and I am full-time researcher employed by the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, the French national research council. I have no background in arts or humanities.


2- when and how did you become involved in a hybrid art/science practice?

I started being interested into this topic during my PhD thesis, when I saw an exhibition in Paris (France) in which the field of nanoscience was explored in an small exhibition. I then tried to connect my research activity to the fields of arts, mostly for fun, at the beginning. I eventually ended up trying to explore the art-science relationship more deeply byt discussing with artists first and then by putting in relationship several artists with fellow scientist colleagues on joint projects to build up together.
This approach was very much different than the given need of an artist to seek for a specific scientific expertise or, on the opposite side, it was different than the approach of a scientist using mostly photoshoped microscopy images as pieces of art. In collaboration with a critic of art, Margherita Balzerani, we tried to give value to mid-term new collaborations between scientists and artists.


3- what have been the major obstacles to overcome?
I had several. First, I had to convince my fellow scientist colleagues to play this unsusual game, considering that scientists are not judged on these extra-curricular activities. Then, I had to convince my hierarchy, both in my research lab and my own employer. Obtaining all authorization and possibly some funding was quite complicated.
On the contrary, it was very easy to convince artists.


4- what have been the greatest opportunities/breakthroughs?
Not less than 5 artists have collaborated with about 10 scientists (full-time and students) and that occurred on topics of current research in the laboratories. Mostly all works have been conceived together by both parties and each party has influenced the other so to conceive the final artwork. Some artworks have benefit several weeks or research in the lab to optimize the conception protocols and some works did not meet the final artist's aesthetic will and for this reason these works were not signed. This is very rare in this field.
Plus, we have had the opportunity to expose the artworks in a dedicated exhibition in an Art Center normally dedicated to Arts and not to science. We really wanted the artworks to be considered as such and not as scientific, beautiful, prototypes.


5- what would you do differently, knowing then what you know now?
I would probably contact the scientific institution (e.g., University...) ahead of time and start working with the since the beginning, rather than proposing them a well-conceived project. This would also probably help in financial support from the institutions themselves, as well as in a large communication support. Several doors were shut because I contacted them once the project was already fully conceived.

6- any advices to someone who may want to walk in your footstep?
These projects are hard to build up because one generally lacks a proper interface which knows the added value of such a collaboration. I would probably do that again if someone would propose that to me with a budget on hand. Otherwise, it is a long path towards uncertainty which keeps both scientists and artists on the razor blade for too long.
I suggest to try to those who really believe into it, even if they must start from scratch. Your own passion to develop the art/science interface is able to convince many people, in the end, because art and science make people dream. However, the quest for funding and support can take long time and it can be quite tiresome.
In addition, a similar project can only occur if recognized actors of each field work together, because the scientific and artistic community will only trust somebody they know, someone who can speak their own language, before trusting somebody on the other side.


7. Add other questions and your responses you think are relevant


_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/