Monday, June 12, 2017

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cultural heritage in the Byzantine metaverse

Dear Roger,

This is a good question:

> On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:32 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> well we still are ! where are the equivalent of 4 dimensional cave
> paintings ???

They exist, but they take a lot of work and they are difficult to make. The serious and elegant equivalent of 4-dimensional cave paintings occur in several media. One that occurred to me when I read this was the scene in the Dreamworks animated film, Prince of Egypt. This scene recounts the first two chapters of Exodus, in the form of an animation of a series of monumental wall paintings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKcObpflMf8

It is difficult to create a visual artifact with authentic narrative power. For example, the cave paintings at Lascaux developed over many years. The exact dating and timeline are under debate, but many scholars believe that it took at least 2,000 years from starting the paintings to bringing the caves to the state in which we see them today.

One reason we don't see many such works in Second Life or Open Sim is that our society has not yet evolved to a point where we generate such works.

If I were to put it another way, the idea of a "born digital indigenous native" is a metaphor rather than a description of existing culture. No human being is born digital. We are born into human bodies, and everything we know about human beings suggests that we require many of the same qualities of human contact and social interaction that human beings have required as new-borns and infants for tens of thousands of years. What makes us human are exactly those qualities that make it impossible to be born digital.

To create works of narrative power requires us to master several vocabularies. I've wondered sometimes just how we can support the education and skill that goes into this level of mastery. The great paintings of the Renaissance and the Reformation required patronage. We have few such patrons today — universities have been a kind of halfway house or sheltered workshop, but university art departments have yielded few acknowledged masterpieces. Why that is so is open to question, but I don't see many works emerging from universities with the kind of narrative power visible at Lascaux.

I've been reading my way through some of Ursula LeGuin's novels again. I'm partway through her trilogy, The Annals of the Western Shore. LeGuin creates and sustains narrative power through the careful use of words — creating characters whose feelings and actions mirror our own. I've often wondered whether she is among the greatest living novelists because she grew up in a family of great anthropologists. Her parents were Alfred Kroeber and Theodora Kroeber (to remarry as Theodora Kroeber Quinn after Alfred's death). All of her creatures share understandable motives: human and fantastic, normal folks and wizards, spirits and dragons all operate from the twin dialectic of private self and culturally embedded members of a community.

While today's digitally engaged artists live a human life in one of their inhabited worlds, questions remain open as to the nature of their digital world, how they live in it, or what it means. Lacking a power physical presence in another world, they cannot create the kind of art that we see at Lascaux. However odd and mysterious this world is, however little we know of what it says and what it means, we can see and feel that the people who painted those walls lived in the world they depicted in a direct and physical way that the inhabitants of Second Life do not.

That's my first stab at an answer to your question.

Where can we find such works — and what would it take to create them? That's a second stab, and I'm not yet ready to attempt it.

Warm wishes,

Ken

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Saturday, June 10, 2017

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History (Elena Giulia Rossi)

Dear Yasminers,

Sorry for my English.. I was not able to ask for editing and I did not want
to add other days to my delay…

some notes on the discussion. We are talking about ways of revitalizing the
past into the liquid present. In Pier Luigi's discussion topic the
projection into the future includes the "fostering of new economic and
professional areas."

I believe that we should probably focus on the objectives that we want to
achieve by preserving and translating Cultural Heritage, starting from
considering how this particular area, The Mediterrean Rim, is located into
the larger picture, mostly with the one that embraces economy. I believe
it would be easier then to move on to discuss models of observation, as
mentioned by Salvatore, that I believe are at the core of 'producing' and
collecting data, and everything that comes after in the process of
intersecting past and present. Data gathering, as much as written history
or science are not objectives as the correspondent words (history, data,
science) might suggest. The objective nature that is often associated with
these words is – by itself – a cultural construct. 'Objectivness' is a
cultural construct. Greek tragedy moved imagination in another direction
but equally practical. Starting from abstraction and spectacularity, it had
a very specific social and political approach in the shaping of collective
consciousness. The language it used (spoken and visual) was very much in
tune with the expectations of the public.

This is a reduction of a very large discourse and much of it was already
previously discussed in your Academic trial, but I wanted to bring back
flashes of it just to highlight the need to narrow down the discussion
focusing on possible objectives to, than, zoom out and re-focus on the
larger questions such as language, knowledge..

If one of the topics of the discussion relates on how to intersect Cultural
Heritage with economics possibilities we cannot ignore the global economy
and its language (even if we move in the English realm it is a language
within another language). In what perspective should we build tool for
collecting data and delivering Cultural Heritage so that it can intersect
with economy? What is the audience? What is the direction that data should
undertake? Evaporate into the liquid realm? Or cross the liquid highways to
bring people back in touch with the earth [always taking into account the
digital infrastructure]?
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[Yasmin_discussions] Bob Dylan's Nobel Prize Lecture

Fellow Yasminers ….

Bob Dylan gave his Nobel Prize Lecture this week. You read the transcript or you can listen to him speak the lecture on the Nobel Prize Organization web site. It's a beautiful work of art in its own right. In the course of the lecture, Dylan retells the story of three books — Moby Dick, All Quiet on the Western Front, and The Odyssey. It offers fascinating insight into his sources and his art.

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2016/dylan-lecture.html

Dylan said:

"Our songs are alive in the land of the living. But songs are unlike literature. They're meant to be sung, not read. The words in Shakespeare's plays were meant to be acted on the stage. Just as lyrics in songs are meant to be sung, not read on a page. And I hope some of you get the chance to listen to these lyrics the way they were intended to be heard: in concert or on record or however people are listening to songs these days. I return once again to Homer, who says, 'Sing in me, oh Muse, and through me tell the story.' "

One comment in the lecture sheds real light on Dylan's work:

"By listening to all the early folk artists and singing the songs yourself, you pick up the vernacular. You internalize it. You sing it in the ragtime blues, work songs, Georgia sea shanties, Appalachian ballads and cowboy songs. You hear all the finer points, and you learn the details.

"You know what it's all about. Takin' the pistol out and puttin' it back in your pocket. Whippin' your way through traffic, talkin' in the dark. You know that Stagger Lee was a bad man and that Frankie was a good girl. You know that Washington is a bourgeois town and you've heard the deep-pitched voice of John the Revelator and you saw the Titanic sink in a boggy creek. And you're pals with the wild Irish rover and the wild colonial boy. You heard the muffled drums and the fifes that played lowly. You've seen the lusty Lord Donald stick a knife in his wife, and a lot of your comrades have been wrapped in white linen."

That reminds me of the Dylan album I have most often listened to over the years, Good as I Been to You (1992). He arranges and sings versions of classic folk tunes.

https://www.bobdylan.com/albums/good-i-been-you/

The cowboy ballad Diamond Joe tells the story of humankind from Homer and Moby Dick to the present moment:

"And when I'm called up yonder
And it's my time to go,
Give my blankets to my buddies
Give the fleas to Diamond Joe."

https://www.bobdylan.com/songs/diamond-joe/

Yours,

Ken

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | 设计 She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/

Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia

Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn


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Thursday, June 8, 2017

[Yasmin_discussions] cultural heritage in the Byzantine metaverse

Elif

just wanted to pick up on your comment on how your mediterrranean rim
heritage resufaces in your on line work in second life and open sim

"I first became aware of this subliminal inspiration and how the visual
heritage of my beloved city seemed to work its way into what I built, when,
during my very early years in the metaverse, I was blogged about as a
Byzantine metaverse builder (
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/06/the-byzantine-w.html)."

So how does one's cultral heritage translate into the culture we are
building on line ? Right now I
am in Manizales Colombia for ISEA..how does a metaverse built on line here
differ from yours built
in Istanbujl

And do 'born digital' indigenous natives develop other forms of on line
culture ?

I remember in the early days of Ars Electronica we used to joke on the jury
that so often the
work was 'signed' by the software and the persons own background barely
came through.

But then I remember work by Char Davies, or Paul Sermon, or Lynn
Hershman..or Eduardo Kac
which somehow synthesised the emerging and ground cultures.

Also I remember being annoyed that space in simcity or second life was so
cartesian.. why couldnt
space be reinvented in on line culture in the way that Linda Henderson has
document in her book
of the 4th dimension in art and science ?

Last century I wrote that we were in the stone age of digital culture
https://www.google.com.co/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwisn_KoranUAhVGKyYKHQsMAGgQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mitpressjournals.org%2Fdoi%2Fpdf%2F10.1162%2F002409402320774286&usg=AFQjCNFDP8PT-wt2RVAgOmcKiyJDAJpJBQ&sig2=7AtR5vDfVlG9-KsLegFyiw

well we still are ! where are the equivalent of 4 dimensional cave
paintings ???



Roger F Malina
is in Manizales, Colombia
1-5108532007 or whatsapp
blog: malina.diatrope.com
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cultural heritage in the Byzantine metaverse

Hi

The word 'indigenous' triggered a couple of points.

But firstly in relation to the 'born digital', is it unreasonable to
argue that what is distinct is the big epistemological shift occuring
across digital as well as art and design, the shift towards
co-creation/participation.

Grant Kester says,

I do think there is a paradigm shift occurring, specifically in the way
in which we understand aesthetic autonomy. This isn't simply a shift in
the content of work, but in the underlying formal organization of
artistic production. … These changes aren't occurring simply because
artists are asking different questions about their own creative
practice. Rather, they reflect a broader, trans-disciplinary interest in
collective knowledge production. Kester, G
https://www.academia.edu/5945454/Kulturawspolczesna_interview_2013_

It may be self evident and stating the obvious, but the very possibility
of the paradigm shift to "collective knowledge production" is only
possible because of the digital environment.

Following on the 'indigenous' track, my colleague Gavin Renwick now
Canada Chair of Design at the University of Alberta has been working
with the indigenous Dene peoples in the North West Territories for many
years. His role is as a cultural intermediary initially on their Land
Claim with the Canadian Government.

I'm not sure what stage the process is at or how successful they have
been, but there was a stage where they were arguing to remove the
Cartesian Grid from the land they were claiming, ie to stop controlling
it through a grid structure of ownership. As nomadic peoples they never
understood the land as this bit and that bit, whether collectively owned
or in the European mode owned by individuals. Removing the grid dividing
the land up into parcels would remove the possibility of individual
ownership.

In other dimensions the Dene have some useful concepts particular in
relation to operating between their own culture and western culture.
These include "being strong like two people" The Elders recognise that
the young people need to be strong and capable in Western Culture, but
also need to be strong and capable in their own culture. Leading on
from this there is another interesting expression "Being modern in your
own language". In both cases they are aiming at a healthy and
productive hybridity.

I think this speaks to the challenges that are being brought up by this
discussion. It doesn't homogenise heritage with contemporary digital
culture, but offers ways for the two to exist in a powerful relationship.

Cheers

Chris

PS I've cced Roger because I'm not always sure my emails go through to
the DISCUSSION list


On 06/06/2017 18:52, Elif Ayiter wrote:
> Hi Roger,
> Fundamental questions, some of which I am most likely not properly equipped
> to answer. But, I will try my best to explain a bit further regarding the
> metaverse. And in order to be able to do so, I am afraid that I will have
> to go over the 500 word or a few phone screen limit by quite a bit. So, my
> apologies about that before all else:
>
> I do not think that the primary challenge of the metaverse is spatial but
> rather it is emotional. In the previous post I have talked exclusively
> about building, I know. However, the biggest creative challenge of the
> metaverse does not revolve so much around the creation of things as it does
> around the creation of an entirely new life - and indeed in most cases
> around the creation of multiple lives, of establishing valid purposes and
> reasons to "build" a novel existence (or indeed novel existences). These do
> of course have their foundations in your Real Life self but are
> nevertheless quite apart from it - in the sense that Pessoa's heteronyms
> come from Pessoa but are discrete entities nevertheless.
>
> Of the tens of millions people who have created accounts in Second Life
> only about 1.5 million have actually remained in Second Life, and of those
> only about half login with any kind of regularity. So, the fallout rate is
> unbelievably high - and this is for a very good reason: "Building" a new
> life, finding a raison d être that is unrelated to Real Life affairs is
> actually a very tough thing to bring about. So, the primary creative
> activity of the Colombian metaverse resident and I, if we are both still
> around today, would not have been about building stuff but about building
> an existential purpose that was powerful enough to keep us logged in, in
> the first place. And that existential purpose, as far as I have witnessed
> and from personal experience, will involve the creation of a paracosm, and
> a wish to play therein
> <http://www.leoalmanac.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/LEAVol19No3-Ayiter.pdf>
> - in the sense that Huizinga describes play - as a state of freedom that
> sets the player outside the confines of the 'ordinary' or of 'real' life
> for the duration of the play session.
>
> Coming now to heritage: I would say that where heritage comes in very
> powerfully is in the creation of this "second" life itself. Yes, Real Life
> identities can be fully concealed (and very often are) in the metaverse.
> However, I do think that heritage - be it from a broader cultural
> perspective or from a narrowly personal one - is a major factor in how the
> paracosm and the player (i.e., the avatar persona) are created. And, I
> relate this process to childhood more than I do to a mere transference of
> the grown up individual's attributes to a virtual persona. I think what
> happens is that we build our avatar selves out of our childhood. And isn't
> our childhood all about heritage? The stories we were told, the pantomimes,
> the nursery rhymes, the dances, the folklore we grew up with, the songs,
> the rituals, the processions and carnivals we participated in as children,
> how powerfully they impressed us at that young age, the architectures and
> spaces we were awestruck by, the early picture books, the fairy tales. The
> mystery of it all.
>
> So, of all the hundreds of avatars whom I either know very well or may have
> only briefly encountered, I cannot think of a single persona that does not
> appear to come out of childhood. In many cases very plainly visually
> manifested before even a hello has been uttered, in others divulged during
> the earliest conversations, straight off the bat. And my own alt personas
> (I have 8 altogether) are certainly products of my childhood - or rather
> different influences / experiences / encounters of my childhood. And the
> building activity is of course an offshoot of that. Which is how, I would
> think, the Colombian colleague would also be operating - under the adages
> of his own childhood and therefore his heritage. This would not of course
> necessarily mean that what he builds or what I build would be easily
> identifiable as such. If all this comes from childhood, it will probably be
> mostly subliminal / half remembered and will therefore probably peek out
> only as traces. So, I think it is actually quite a subtle thing that may or
> may not be easy to identify in the artifacts that we build. But, given this
> childhood influence, I do think that it will be there.
>
> Your question: "does any one have good examples of totally new cultural
> heritage forms in cyberspace ?" I do not know of anything that is totally
> new but I do think that if we consider things not under the term of
> "output," but rather under the term of "process" there is something that
> may be quite intriguing in the idea of creating a persona that then becomes
> creatively active in his / her / its own right. Alpha (one of my avatars)
> builds, indeed thinks, altogether differently from Xiamara (another avatar
> of mine who is a fashion designer, as is also Alpha). Not at all new, of
> course - after all Charles Dodgson thought and wrote differently than Lewis
> Carroll - but something to be explored nevertheless, especially when put
> within a virtual context.
>
> You can build non-Cartesian spaces in SL, you can build anything you pretty
> much want really. I have tried to rebuild El Lissitzky's Proun 5A
> <https://www.homage-to-el-lissitzky.com/proun-5a>, for example, which
> turned out to be a massive job because El Lissitzky (as I found out while I
> was re-building the construct from his drawings) had not adhered to the
> rules of Cartesian space in the Proun 5A series. I have built quite a few
> spaces in the metaverse that are quite hard to negotiate / make sense of /
> get around in Cartesian terms. I have tried to examine these under the
> Deleuzian concept of smooth and striated on my website
> <http://www.elifayiter.com/smoothstriated>. What emerges from such an
> examination however is that smooth space becomes striated as soon as there
> is any kind of human occupancy. So, none of my spaces can be smooth - they
> can be hybrids at best - from the moment that I make an intervention that
> will allow my extension, my avatar, to become the occupant of that
> particular location. Which is probably where the crux of the non-Cartesian
> space building challenge resides. So, yes, we see plenty of digital spaces
> that are non-Cartesian, especially in fields such as data-vis. But, at
> least all the examples that I can think of, are spaces that we observe or
> interact with from the outside, without actually occupying them. As soon as
> occupancy and all its related activity becomes a factor (and the avatar is
> of course an occupant in this sense) I think we forsake the purity of
> non-Cartesian space.
>
> Finally, digital natives: I really do not know about this Roger. I am not
> at all sure that digital natives are all that they are cracked up to be. I
> have been teaching design students for nigh on 25 years now, and of course
> increasingly over the past decade they have moved into the age group of
> digital natives. And, as far as I can see, there is no more of a
> generalization to be made among them than among people of our generation.
> Some are inquisitive and experimental and explore digital boundaries and
> resources to their limits - but then so do I, and so do quite a few others
> of my age group. Most however, will limit their digital nativity to posting
> photos on Instagram, sending stuff on whatsapp and downloading movies via
> Torrent - which we do as well, no?
>
> Again, apologies for such a long response. But, again, a long response to
> some very germane questions, so I hope it will not be taken amiss.
>
> elif
>
> On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 5:11 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Elif
>>
>> just wanted to pick up on your comment on how your mediterrranean rim
>> heritage resufaces in your on line work in second life and open sim
>>
>> "I first became aware of this subliminal inspiration and how the visual
>> heritage of my beloved city seemed to work its way into what I built, when,
>> during my very early years in the metaverse, I was blogged about as a
>> Byzantine metaverse builder (
>> http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/06/the-byzantine-w.html)."
>>
>> So how does one's cultural heritage translate into the culture we are
>> building on line ? Right now i am in Manizales Colombia for ISEA..how does
>> a metaverse built on line here differ from yours built
>> in Istanbul
>>
>> And do 'born digital' indigenous natives develop other forms of on line
>> culture ?
>>
>> I remember in the early days of Ars Electronica we used to joke on the jury
>> that so often the
>> work was 'signed' by the software and the persons own background barely
>> came through.
>>
>> But then I remember work by Char Davies, or Paul Sermon, or Lynn
>> Hershman..or Eduardo Kac
>> which somehow synthesised the emerging on line and grounded cultures.
>>
>> Also I remember being annoyed that space in simcity or second life was so
>> cartesian.. why couldnt
>> space be reinvented in on line culture in the way that Linda Henderson has
>> document in her book
>> of the 4th dimension in art and science ?
>>
>> Last century I wrote on the stone age of digital culture...but where are
>> our cave paintings on line to be preserved for 50,000 years ? There is no
>> gravity in cyberspace..so why is cyberspace so 3d and Cartesian ?
>>
>> Oliver grau chronicled the work of artists in immersive spaces from caves
>> to vr...does any one have good examples of totally new cultural heritage
>> forms in cyberspace ? Or are like the colonial powers imposing our
>> terrestrial culture on cyberspace ? Its time for the digital natives to
>> revolt like Caldas did here in colombia
>>
>> Roger malina
>>
>>
>>
>> Roger F Malina
>> is in Manizales, Colombia
>> 1-5108532007 or whatsapp
>> blog: malina.diatrope.com
>> roger malina
>> is in paris
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
>> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
>> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest
>> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
>> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
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> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

--
Chris Fremantle
Independent Producer and Researcher

+44(0)7714203016
chris@fremantle.org
http://chris.fremantle.org
http://ecoartscotland.net
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Chris_Fremantle2
On The Edge Research archive https://openair.rgu.ac.uk/handle/10059/2017

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Wednesday, June 7, 2017

[Yasmin_discussions] Open Science Book

Hi all, I would love to introduce this epsitemological work about how
does artist produce knowledge called:

"Open Science: Singularity and Irruption in the Frontiers of the
Artistica Practice"

A research done by Ignacio Nieto and Marcelo Velasco who made a
qualititative approach to the works of five artsits with double
expertices (artisitic and scientific): Gilberto Esparza (mx), Perdita
Phillips (au), Rachel Mayeri (us), Susana Soares (pt) and Dmitry Bulatov
(ru).


https://adrededitora.cl/publicaciones/ciencia-abierta-open-science/



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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST

Today's Topics:

1. Re: art*science 2017 - The New and History (Katreina Karoussos)
2. Simple Question (Gemma Anderson)
3. Re: art*science 2017 - The New and History (Ken Friedman)
4. Re: Inscribed with an Iron Tool (xDxD.vs.xDxD)
5. Nina Czegledy and Roger Malina yasmin moderators this week
(roger malina)
6. Re: art*science 2017 - The New and History (Katerna Karoussos)
7. art*science 2017 - The New and History (czegledy@interlog.com)
8. art*science 2017 - The New and History (czegledy@interlog.com)
9. Re: art*science 2017 - The New and History (Elif Ayiter)
10. R: Re: art*science 2017 - The New and History (ale_giur@yahoo.it)
11. art*science 2017 - The New and History (czegledy@interlog.com)
12. Re: art*science 2017 - The New and History (Kathelin Gray)
13. yasmin discussion and dialogue netiquette (roger malina)
14. Re: art*science 2017 - The New and History (roberta buiani)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 18:37:51 +0300
From: Katreina Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and
History
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <A226C627-7CE8-4A38-8F91-8C25D566BF9A@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8


Dear Ken,

It would never seem correct if you are using the standards generated after the 15th century.
Concepts as "practical, fine and applied arts", "domains" "universities" are maybe the ones that confuse you in finding the way to acknowledge the "unified knowledge".

Techne, episteme and philosophy governed the entire era of classical Greece. If you want evidence, you can study a bit more the Parthenon and/or Greek tragedy. No one speaks about "fine and applied arts" neither about the way philosophy was recorded from the Enlightenment and on. Philosophia means to be a friend with wisdom and for the ancient Greeks wisdom was the process of contemplation.

As for Byzantium there wasn't any University but a Pandidakterion which literally means holistic education. You should go through an extended research to examine how they managed to incorporate all fields of knowledge and manifest it to a single Ekphrasis.
When i am referring to economy, I don't mean finance, although i should mention here that the ones you called "theologians" who thought that the sun stands still, were the people who funded Galileo. You should consider economy as the process of provision by which one is able to select their investment in human capital.

And this is actually where one can find the restore point. Hence, it is not about the quantity of knowledge, or else we should refer to ourselves as encyclopedists. It is more about what economy we use to acknowledge and to use this knowledge.

Katerina

> On 02 Jun 2017, at 17:04, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Katerna,
>
> This account of an era of unified knowledge does not seem correct to me.
>
>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?snip?
>
>> What seems strange to me is why, since we are discussing about cultural heritage and art - science alliance, we consider them as separate. The fragmentation in knowledge happened after the 15th century and had been established in modern era, as knowledge economy. Before that, geometry, physics, astronomy, medicine, arts, rhetoric and philosophy consisted the body of knowledge which was indivisible.
>> Hence, if we go back, searching for this specific restore point, in where the holistic knowledge was the common process of learning, researching, creating and producing, we will find all the necessary elements for retrieving the ways that this knowledge can be activated in nowadays.
>
> ?snip?
>
> First, there have been different accounts of the divisions of knowledge domains over the centuries. There has never been a time anywhere in which the several kinds of knowledge were considered whole and indivisible. The divisions of knowledge domains that dominated classical Greece and the post-Alexandrian Hellenic world did not include the practical arts or professions in the domains of philosophy. Things changed again in the medieval university, but even there, the trivium and quadrivium did not include the fine or applied arts ? while the lower faculty of philosophy was different to the higher faculties of medicine, law and theology. Medicine itself distinguished between the medical theory taught at university and the work of barber-surgeons who actually worked on patients.
>
> Second, the changes that took place in the 15th century did not come about because of any shift in economic models. What happened was the scientists began to look at the world. 15th-century physics was a branch of natural philosophy. 15th-century physics accepted much of Aristotle?s often-mistaken account translated through the lens of Ptolemy. The Copernican model that arrived in the 16th century, followed by the work of Galileo, Kepler, and Newton meant a different world. This was not a ?fragmentation? of some unified knowledge that could be ?restored.? New facts made it impossible to think of the world in a fuzzy way governed by Aristotelian physics and a version of astrophysics dominated by Biblical theology. Literalist theologians argue that the sun stood still in Joshua 10. If the Biblical account is true, it cannot be true that the earth revolves around the sun. Talking about this as ?holistic? knowledge doesn?t make sense.
>
> Third, there is significantly more to know than there was to know in the 15th century. In the 15th century, we had fewer books than the number of volumes held in the Library of Alexandria when Callimachus organized the great library catalogue known as the Pinakes. Today, we have far more. Since the time of Gutenberg?s printing press, there have been millions of books published. While I cannot track the numbers from Shanghai, I gather that Google?s estimate of the world?s books runs to nearly 129,000,000 volumes not counting the same volume more than once. If you add journal articles and other material, we?re talking about an amount of information that makes a single knowledge domain impossible.
>
> Fourth, even within recognized disciplines, it is no longer possible for anyone in any field to cover more than a tiny fraction of what there is to know. When Henri Poincar? died in 1912, he was probably the last human being to know and understand the complete mathematical corpus of the time in which he lived. As for physics or even philosophy, the notion is incredible.
>
> If my view is pessimistic, I?d be curious to know two things.
>
> First, what evidence is there for an era of unified knowledge? It seems to me that a great deal of this idea is an optimistic notion based on an inadequate understanding of the world by people who were simply wrong about how much they knew, and just as wrong about how much of what they knew was incorrect.
>
> Second, just how one can ?restore? this era in a world where there is simply too much to know. I?m not asking how we can restore the illusion of unified knowledge. Too me, that?s like the Bible museum diorama in which you can see human beings living side by side with dinosaurs, rather like a new version of the Flintstone cartoon series. I?m asking for a credible account of how it is possible for anyone to restore an era of unified knowledge in a world where nearly no one can credibly manage to know what there is, even in their own field.
>
> It is one thing to argue in favor of interdisciplinary research. It is another to do so without accounting for what we do not know, and cannot know.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/
>
> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>
> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:38:52 +0200
From: Gemma Anderson <gemma.anderson@network.rca.ac.uk>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Simple Question
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<CAM59yo-zGSgfssq7J+TFvmjQG-UgDMPh6MR6qBaUYt3L8ZNOgw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Dear Yasminers,

I would like to ask if you might advise journals to submit an article of
art/biology/philosophy ? I know that Leonardo is a great fit but wonder how
many other places you know that this material can be published?

Many thanks

all best,

Gemma


Dr Gemma Anderson
Artist and Lecturer in Drawing at Falmouth University
Honorary Research Fellow, Egenis, University of Exeter
Drawing Research Associate, The Big Draw, UK

http://www.gemma-anderson.co.uk/
www.cmadc.uk
http://www.isomorphology.com/
https://falmouth.academia.edu/GemmaAnderson
@Isomorphology


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2017 05:37:40 +0800
From: Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and
History
To: Yasmin Yasmin <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <233BD1E2-B36C-4E56-9F6D-C8BC5429F53C@icloud.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Dear Katerina,

With respect to ancient Greece, you are mistaken. I was specifically referring to the knowledge domains as the classical Greeks understood and used them

Since we are writing in English for an international readership, I used English-language terms. I know the Greek terms. I described techne even though I used the terms ?fine and applied arts.? This was the realm of techne. Techne was a domain of knowledge that was unwritten, often tacit, and nearly never described except by masters to apprentices. Even then, techne was more often transmitted by modeling through physical example, much as a ballet master teaches dance. Navigators, smiths, artisans, sculptors, physicians and others practiced techne, and this is how they passed their knowledge on.

Some who practiced a techne were organized in special groups that resembled guilds. Some even took guild oaths vowing to keep their teaching secret within the fraternity of the guild. They agreed to teach the arts of the guild to the children of other guild members and to a few indentured apprentices, revealing these arts to no one outside the fraternity.

This was the case with the Oath of Hippocrates, the physician. Each new physician swore to honor his teacher as a second father, to share his income with his teacher as a partner, to help his teacher financially in times of need. He was to consider his teacher?s sons as his own brothers, and to teach them the art of medicine should they want to learn it with no fee and without indenture. The oath bound him to teach the medical precepts, oral instructions, and all other instruction to his own sons, the sons of his teacher, and to pupils who also took the physician?s oath ? but teach them to nobody else.

Other applied arts were organized in similar ways, some formally, some less formally. A navigator learned specific routes from a master navigator, sailing by landmarks, tides, and other indicators. If you read Mark Twain?s description of a riverboat pilot reading the water, you can see a modern rendition of the ancient navigator?s education. Peter Drucker?s 1993 book Post-Capitalist Society explains some of these issues, distinguishing the modern view from that of classical Greece.

The fine and applied arts were the opposite of those branches of philosophy that one might teach openly to all men. However, the philosophical education taught in such institutions as Plato?s Academy and Aristotle?s Lyceum were mainly available to the sons of wealthy families who could afford tuition. This elite philosophical education prepared young men for careers in public life as civic leaders, as leaders in war and peace, as rulers, and members of the government, as well as preparing those who would go on to govern and practice law.

Ancient Greek philosophy was not a matter of gaining wisdom through contemplation. These were not monks. They polished their skills through dialectic and argument more than contemplation. There are famous contemplative incidents, such as the time that Socrates stood all night in the snow, thinking. We remember this because it was unusual. It was a testimony to Socrates?s power of concentration and his detachment from bodily concerns such as cold, hunger, or the need to sleep. Most Greek philosophers lived a normal life, not the vita contemplativa resembling the life of a medieval monastic. Many were active rhetors and sophists who made a living in the market-place selling their argumentative skill, much like lawyers and management consultants today.

Philosophical education rested on rhetoric, analysis, and logic, including geometry and mathematics. Young men also engaged in sport and athletics in the context of their development, so that they would be ready to serve as warriors if the city should call.

Philosophical education had several dimensions. One was episteme ? the study of what we may know and how we may know it. The other was phronesis ? the study of wise action, how we should behave and what we should do. Such topics as rhetoric, dialectic, argumentation theory, and the branches of mathematics rounded out a full education.

Neither the Parthenon nor Tragedy provide evidence for these issues. The Parthenon and the other great physical monuments were built by specialists in the practice of a techne, a technical and artistic skill.

The great tragedians were poets, but they were citizens and gentlemen first. The tragedies had a sacred and civic dimensions. While prizes were awarded for the great works, they had a special role in classical Greek life unlike anything we know today. Only the literate and well educated had the skill required to compete writing tragic drama for the festivals ? or, to be precise, writing the three tragedies and a comic satyr play that constituted each entry.

Those who practiced a techne did not participate in the art of tragedy as the poets who wrote the plays, though craftsmen and artisans may have taken part in plays as actors or members of a chorus.

Even this was not the most important aspect of life, not for the greatest of the playwrights. Consider the life of Aeschylus, one of the two greatest, along with Sophocles. Aeschylus won the first prize more than often any playwright other than Sophocles, but he defined himself before everything else as a citizen who fought the Persians at Marathon in 490 BCE to defend democracy and he likely fought again at Salamis in 480 BCE.

For Aeschylus, pride in Athens and a sense of the common good were the heart of what it was to be a man of distinction. The words that he composed for the epitaph on his tombstone ? he probably wrote them himself ? commemorated his service as a soldier and citizen. He said nothing of his stature as the foremost poet of dramatic tragedy or the many honors he won at the festivals.

?This memorial covers Aischylos son of Euphorion ?
an Athenian, though he died at wheat-bearing Gela.
Of his glorious prowess the sacred land of Marathon can tell ?
and the long-haired Mede (Persian) who knows it well.?

Bernard Knox once wrote that the paper monuments of ancient Greece have stood longer and in better condition than the stones, and I have studied them more carefully than I have studied the Parthenon.

It is fair to say that I understand Greek tragedy. Or at least it is fair to say that I have read the tragedies. Only a few survive of the many that Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides wrote, though. Translations differ, from the florid 19th century translations to the excellent modern translations of Richmond Lattimore, the powerful renditions of Robert Fagles, and the contemporary versions of Ruby Blondell.

The tragedies contain very little about knowledge domains. These are quasi-sacred works, sacred in the sense that they were written for the great sacred occasions of civic life. The tragedies concern the deep qualities of human being, the acts of gods, human obligations toward the gods, human obligations toward one another, and the obligation to understand and to do what is right ? often at a high cost.

What I wrote yesterday was that the Greeks established knowledge domains, and that these domains were not unified. This is not a backward look imposing 15th century views or 21st century views on the men and women of the 5th century BCE. It is an account of their view as they saw it in their own time. The classical Greeks taught and transmitted techne and episteme in different ways to different kinds of people. These people did not generally share their knowledge with one another. A small farmer with a freehold and some olive groves might need to know more about managing the farm and instructing the work of his slaves than the sons of wealthy aristocrats would need to know for the management of far larger estates, but they learned none of this in the formal knowledge of the schools.

There have been many different ways that different societies defined knowledge and organized it. These involved very different kinds of distinctions about what knowledge was, who might practice different kinds of knowledge, how knowledge was to be maintained, preserved and transmitted. I am not imposing 15th-century ideas on earlier cultures. I am reporting what those cultures said of themselves.

And, yes, I know that Galileo worked for universities founded by Papal decree. It is nevertheless incorrect to say that theologians funded Galileo. The church had many arms, and the church often appointed priests to manage them. Since all ordained priests were required to study theology within their formative education, all were theologians in some sense. Relatively few, however, were professional theologians.

Since Galileo received patronage from high prelates at different points in his career, it is in a sense true that theologians funded his work ? but *not* in their capacity as theologians.

When Galileo's research moved beyond the bounds of acceptable doctrine, the Inquisition made a case against Galileo on theological grounds. The inquisitors are the theologians to whom I referred. The inquisitors acted as professional theologians within the scope of their assigned theological duties. These theologians were not the same people who funded Galileo?s earlier work.

Before dispensing advice on the research that I should do, I?d suggest that you catch up on your own reading. The Pandidakterion was, for all practical purposes, a university, and many historians describe it as a university. It did not have the university structure of the medieval Western universities, but it did have the same kinds of professional schools where people could study law and medicine, as well as other disciplines. Like many Western universities, the role of the Pandidakterion was to produce an educated professional bureaucracy to serve the needs of the state.

In the West, cathedral schools grew into universities with the right to deliver the Studium Generale, and Papal foundations generally meant this at the start. The Pandidakterion was a direct imperial foundation, and there was no papal oversight. It had two or three dozen professorial chairs. The professors functioned by teaching through a structure of disciplines organized within schools. In this, the Pandidakterion partly resembled the Library and Museion of Alexandria, which also functioned as a university-like organization. The Library had a much larger staff than the Pandidakterion, with over 80 permanent professorial chairs at its greatest extent.

If you are proposing The Pandidakterion as an example of holistic, undivided knowledge, it is the wrong example. You can study nearly every subject under the sun at The University of California, or at Oxford, or Edinburgh. But you cannot study all this knowledge in one place, and you are obliged to work your way through the disciplines before you are admitted to higher study. Pandidakterion does not mean ?holistic education.? Rather, it refers to an institution that has responsibility for all the branches of learning in one place, much as a Pantheon is a place that gathers all the gods of one tradition or religion.

The Pandidakterion produced scholars, scientists, administrator, lawyers, physicians, and bureaucrats. Most of these were specialists dedicated to one profession or another, one discipline or another, much like the graduates of the modern university. Ekphrasis is something else entirely ? the mission of the Pandidakterion was to graduate experts, not to produce ekphrasis.

Yours,

Ken Friedman

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/

Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia

Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn

> On Jun 3, 2017, at 11:37 PM, Katreina Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Ken,
>
> It would never seem correct if you are using the standards generated after the 15th century.
> Concepts as "practical, fine and applied arts", "domains" "universities" are maybe the ones that confuse you in finding the way to acknowledge the "unified knowledge".
>
> Techne, episteme and philosophy governed the entire era of classical Greece. If you want evidence, you can study a bit more the Parthenon and/or Greek tragedy. No one speaks about "fine and applied arts" neither about the way philosophy was recorded from the Enlightenment and on. Philosophia means to be a friend with wisdom and for the ancient Greeks wisdom was the process of contemplation.
>
> As for Byzantium there wasn't any University but a Pandidakterion which literally means holistic education. You should go through an extended research to examine how they managed to incorporate all fields of knowledge and manifest it to a single Ekphrasis.
> When i am referring to economy, I don't mean finance, although i should mention here that the ones you called "theologians" who thought that the sun stands still, were the people who funded Galileo. You should consider economy as the process of provision by which one is able to select their investment in human capital.
>
> And this is actually where one can find the restore point. Hence, it is not about the quantity of knowledge, or else we should refer to ourselves as encyclopedists. It is more about what economy we use to acknowledge and to use this knowledge.
>
> Katerina
>
>> On 02 Jun 2017, at 17:04, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Katerna,
>>
>> This account of an era of unified knowledge does not seem correct to me.
>>
>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?snip?
>>
>>> What seems strange to me is why, since we are discussing about cultural heritage and art - science alliance, we consider them as separate. The fragmentation in knowledge happened after the 15th century and had been established in modern era, as knowledge economy. Before that, geometry, physics, astronomy, medicine, arts, rhetoric and philosophy consisted the body of knowledge which was indivisible.
>>> Hence, if we go back, searching for this specific restore point, in where the holistic knowledge was the common process of learning, researching, creating and producing, we will find all the necessary elements for retrieving the ways that this knowledge can be activated in nowadays.
>>
>> ?snip?
>>
>> First, there have been different accounts of the divisions of knowledge domains over the centuries. There has never been a time anywhere in which the several kinds of knowledge were considered whole and indivisible. The divisions of knowledge domains that dominated classical Greece and the post-Alexandrian Hellenic world did not include the practical arts or professions in the domains of philosophy. Things changed again in the medieval university, but even there, the trivium and quadrivium did not include the fine or applied arts ? while the lower faculty of philosophy was different to the higher faculties of medicine, law and theology. Medicine itself distinguished between the medical theory taught at university and the work of barber-surgeons who actually worked on patients.
>>
>> Second, the changes that took place in the 15th century did not come about because of any shift in economic models. What happened was the scientists began to look at the world. 15th-century physics was a branch of natural philosophy. 15th-century physics accepted much of Aristotle?s often-mistaken account translated through the lens of Ptolemy. The Copernican model that arrived in the 16th century, followed by the work of Galileo, Kepler, and Newton meant a different world. This was not a ?fragmentation? of some unified knowledge that could be ?restored.? New facts made it impossible to think of the world in a fuzzy way governed by Aristotelian physics and a version of astrophysics dominated by Biblical theology. Literalist theologians argue that the sun stood still in Joshua 10. If the Biblical account is true, it cannot be true that the earth revolves around the sun. Talking about this as ?holistic? knowledge doesn?t make sense.
>>
>> Third, there is significantly more to know than there was to know in the 15th century. In the 15th century, we had fewer books than the number of volumes held in the Library of Alexandria when Callimachus organized the great library catalogue known as the Pinakes. Today, we have far more. Since the time of Gutenberg?s printing press, there have been millions of books published. While I cannot track the numbers from Shanghai, I gather that Google?s estimate of the world?s books runs to nearly 129,000,000 volumes not counting the same volume more than once. If you add journal articles and other material, we?re talking about an amount of information that makes a single knowledge domain impossible.
>>
>> Fourth, even within recognized disciplines, it is no longer possible for anyone in any field to cover more than a tiny fraction of what there is to know. When Henri Poincar? died in 1912, he was probably the last human being to know and understand the complete mathematical corpus of the time in which he lived. As for physics or even philosophy, the notion is incredible.
>>
>> If my view is pessimistic, I?d be curious to know two things.
>>
>> First, what evidence is there for an era of unified knowledge? It seems to me that a great deal of this idea is an optimistic notion based on an inadequate understanding of the world by people who were simply wrong about how much they knew, and just as wrong about how much of what they knew was incorrect.
>>
>> Second, just how one can ?restore? this era in a world where there is simply too much to know. I?m not asking how we can restore the illusion of unified knowledge. Too me, that?s like the Bible museum diorama in which you can see human beings living side by side with dinosaurs, rather like a new version of the Flintstone cartoon series. I?m asking for a credible account of how it is possible for anyone to restore an era of unified knowledge in a world where nearly no one can credibly manage to know what there is, even in their own field.
>>
>> It is one thing to argue in favor of interdisciplinary research. It is another to do so without accounting for what we do not know, and cannot know.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Ken Friedman
>>
>> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/
>>
>> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>>
>> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>>
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 12:07:25 +0200
From: "xDxD.vs.xDxD" <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Inscribed with an Iron Tool
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<CAJ=DDho5oBPhhAGgE6nSEOzev4bZ+4h1EjBMzTSMou3B2Sg3ug@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Dear Friends,
Dear Ken,

As the conversations evolve on this list, I am puzzled by the absence of
> any serious reference to the important work done on these topics by
> historians and cultural historians.
>

I don't believe this to be true.
For example ? just one of the many ? one of the projects which I intended
to speak about before the previous turn of the direction of the discussion,
RuralHub (www.ruralhub.it), is built on knowledge and conscience about the
historical background and context of the mediterranean (and of the many
mediterraneans, as noted by many of the historians that you mention) and,
in the specifics, about the incredible bridge which was the Salerno region
in Italy, between Arabic sciences (for example medicine) and Western Europe.
For example, the Medical School of Salerno is one of the entities which
rose from this bridge. It started as an informal, networked, entity, and
did not achieve any legal status for over a century.
In the School several interesting practices took place which are relevant
for our discussion, bringing together sciences and technologies and
bringing them out in society through communication and art.
For example, the School had also a poetic approach, the "Flos
Medicina", which took the wisdom and knowledge of salerninan medicine
beyond borders. The poem had its verses tightly coupled to a rich
compendium in farmacology, of which Salerno was one of the principal actors
in Europe, with advanced knowledge about herbs and remedies.
Hospitals were also very innovative, in the fact that they not only cured
who was diseased, but also accepted the poor, or offered ambulatory service
to keep people under observation, and also offered contexts which were very
welcoming, assuming a distinct role in society in those times.
One of the most interesting things in the School is the Trotula. Trotula
refers to a set of 3 books on "women's medicine", which are also at the
center of disputes in regards to authorship and attribution. They used to
be attributed to the Trotula de Ruggiero, of Salerno, a women physician
(now we know that the story is more complex than that).
Trotula was part of the Mulieres Salernitanae, women scientists which
operated in the Medical School: they had a distinct role on the School, as
women could study medicine and practice as healer.
One of the interesting things about Trotula was that she used to hold
public lessons which were accessible to everyone, in public squares. These
not only were a novelty, but also a very distinct and intentional
innovation, as they brought people together to better enact strategies for
health, as a place for public discussion for other topics, and as a moment
of what we could now call inclusion, or intervention on divides.
As a matter of fact, this type of practice brought to the condition in
which lessons in the School became technically accessible to everyone,
regardless of confession and nationality.

This is only one of the historical sources which inform projects like
RuralHub. Documenting, as I was describing in another message, the ways in
which a transgressive, networked, relational approach has appeared multiple
times in the history of the area to being about interesting innovation. And
trying to establish and describe bridges and evolutions: from history to
present to future, using syncretic approaches with contributions from
sciences, arts, technologies, communication, anthropology...

And this is not the only way in which these types of projects take history
in consideration.

For example, they make extensive use of the concept and practice of
Microhistory. In Italy, we have maybe two of the most influential exponents
of Microhistory, in Giovanni Levi and Carlo Ginzburg.
According to Levi, in his "On Microhistory", "microhistorians have
concentrated on the contradictions of normative systems and therefore on
the fragmentation, contradictions and plurality of viewpoints which make
all systems fluid and open."
Which, if one desires to understand change and transformation in societies,
is a fundamental thing to do, especially if observed in a plurality of
ways, especially across relational networks.

The methods and practice of Microhistory become particularly meaningful
today, thanks to the possibility offered by data and ubiquitous
technologies and networks.
As we become able to capture myriads of microhistories through data, novel
opportunities for understanding history, present, perception of futures,
and the relations and tensions among all three arrive.

This is why, for example, projects like RuralHub are also major national
focuses on the scientific research of Netnography, and on the themes of how
to access, use and preserve heritage in the age of "hyperconnectivity".

I would not say that there is an absence of reference to historians at all:
multiple of these projects are very well informed by history.


> There is more to life than silicon.
>

of course.

But if you consider the Marcus' concept of multi-sited ethnography, you
would have to take in consideration that any study, today, is informed by
"silicon".

"The world system becomes [...] integral to and embedded in discontinuous,
multi-sited objects of study." (Marcus, 1995, "Ethnography in/of the World
System: The Emergence of Multi-Sited Ethnography", Annual Review of
Anthropology, Vol. 24, p.97)

If I am in the middle of the Amazon forest I cannot avoid taking into
consideration how what happens in New York, or on Facebook, influences it,
to gain an reasonable understanding of the world.

So, maybe, it is much better to complete the sentence "There is more to
life than silicon, but you need silicon to understand it"

And, also, completing this thought, I would also search for another word
for "silicon": I would not run the risk of mistaking digital cultures and
their impacts on the world with "silicon".

cheers
Salvatore



>
> Yours,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The
> Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji
> University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL:
> http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-
> design-economics-and-innovation/
>
> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and
> Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University
> Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne
> University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>
> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia
> http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>
> ?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest
> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/




--
*[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *- http://www.artisopensource.net
*[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
<http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
*[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
*[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
---
Professor of Near Future and Transmedia Design at ISIA Design Florence:
http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
?


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 15:36:19 +0200
From: roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Nina Czegledy and Roger Malina yasmin
moderators this week
To: yasmin_announcements <yasmin_announcements@estia.media.uoa.gr>,
YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<CAPPudS+5g6xP10unPSPTZ-TYVhCac9E4GMewDBaRvNaGL024bg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Yasminers

This coming week Nina Czelgedy and I will be moderating
the YASMIN lists- remember that we only approve 2-3 posts
a day-so be patient if your post hasnt appeared yet

I am afraid our carbon foot print is not good over the coming
weeks- some of us will be at ISEA in Manizales where Felipe Londono
has kindly organised a Leonardo 50th birthday party, others will
be in Rio the week after ISEA where Rejane Spitz also has organised
a party, and then others yet will be in Bologna for the birthday party
that Pier Luigi Capucci has organised a symposium and party. Surely
at such worrying times, it is good to meet with friends and colleagues.

Also Ricardo Dal Farra has re launched the redcatsur discussion list
for art science and technology in latin america, a sister list to yasmin.
(details at http://www.ceiarteuntref.edu.ar/redcatsur ).

The yasmin discussion list is vigorous with the topic proposed
by Capucci in the meaning of mediterranean cultural heritage
in the digital age- please join in...at
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions


Roger F Malina
is in Dallas on his way to Manizales
blog: malina.diatrope.com


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 11:29:44 +0300
From: "Katerna Karoussos" <kkaroussos@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and
History
To: "'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS'" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <000e01d2dd0c$b8fcffa0$2af6fee0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


Dear Ken,

I congratulate you for your ambition, trying to deliver an e-learning lesson to a Greek person for Ancient Greek culture. Especially when this person has a doctorate degree in Ancient Greek and Byzantine culture.
I encourage you to come over, learn the Greek language, study the culture, and then we could discuss if I am mistaken. In any case, if you are teaching it, it is critical to do so.
However, because this discussion is not a history class, it wouldn?t be useful to continue this debate. If you want to find clues, my thesis is on Pearl database of Plymouth University.

Katerina

-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Ken Friedman
Sent: 04 June 2017 00:38
To: Yasmin Yasmin <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Katerina,

With respect to ancient Greece, you are mistaken. I was specifically referring to the knowledge domains as the classical Greeks understood and used them

Since we are writing in English for an international readership, I used English-language terms. I know the Greek terms. I described techne even though I used the terms ?fine and applied arts.? This was the realm of techne. Techne was a domain of knowledge that was unwritten, often tacit, and nearly never described except by masters to apprentices. Even then, techne was more often transmitted by modeling through physical example, much as a ballet master teaches dance. Navigators, smiths, artisans, sculptors, physicians and others practiced techne, and this is how they passed their knowledge on.

Some who practiced a techne were organized in special groups that resembled guilds. Some even took guild oaths vowing to keep their teaching secret within the fraternity of the guild. They agreed to teach the arts of the guild to the children of other guild members and to a few indentured apprentices, revealing these arts to no one outside the fraternity.

This was the case with the Oath of Hippocrates, the physician. Each new physician swore to honor his teacher as a second father, to share his income with his teacher as a partner, to help his teacher financially in times of need. He was to consider his teacher?s sons as his own brothers, and to teach them the art of medicine should they want to learn it with no fee and without indenture. The oath bound him to teach the medical precepts, oral instructions, and all other instruction to his own sons, the sons of his teacher, and to pupils who also took the physician?s oath ? but teach them to nobody else.

Other applied arts were organized in similar ways, some formally, some less formally. A navigator learned specific routes from a master navigator, sailing by landmarks, tides, and other indicators. If you read Mark Twain?s description of a riverboat pilot reading the water, you can see a modern rendition of the ancient navigator?s education. Peter Drucker?s 1993 book Post-Capitalist Society explains some of these issues, distinguishing the modern view from that of classical Greece.

The fine and applied arts were the opposite of those branches of philosophy that one might teach openly to all men. However, the philosophical education taught in such institutions as Plato?s Academy and Aristotle?s Lyceum were mainly available to the sons of wealthy families who could afford tuition. This elite philosophical education prepared young men for careers in public life as civic leaders, as leaders in war and peace, as rulers, and members of the government, as well as preparing those who would go on to govern and practice law.

Ancient Greek philosophy was not a matter of gaining wisdom through contemplation. These were not monks. They polished their skills through dialectic and argument more than contemplation. There are famous contemplative incidents, such as the time that Socrates stood all night in the snow, thinking. We remember this because it was unusual. It was a testimony to Socrates?s power of concentration and his detachment from bodily concerns such as cold, hunger, or the need to sleep. Most Greek philosophers lived a normal life, not the vita contemplativa resembling the life of a medieval monastic. Many were active rhetors and sophists who made a living in the market-place selling their argumentative skill, much like lawyers and management consultants today.

Philosophical education rested on rhetoric, analysis, and logic, including geometry and mathematics. Young men also engaged in sport and athletics in the context of their development, so that they would be ready to serve as warriors if the city should call.

Philosophical education had several dimensions. One was episteme ? the study of what we may know and how we may know it. The other was phronesis ? the study of wise action, how we should behave and what we should do. Such topics as rhetoric, dialectic, argumentation theory, and the branches of mathematics rounded out a full education.

Neither the Parthenon nor Tragedy provide evidence for these issues. The Parthenon and the other great physical monuments were built by specialists in the practice of a techne, a technical and artistic skill.

The great tragedians were poets, but they were citizens and gentlemen first. The tragedies had a sacred and civic dimensions. While prizes were awarded for the great works, they had a special role in classical Greek life unlike anything we know today. Only the literate and well educated had the skill required to compete writing tragic drama for the festivals ? or, to be precise, writing the three tragedies and a comic satyr play that constituted each entry.

Those who practiced a techne did not participate in the art of tragedy as the poets who wrote the plays, though craftsmen and artisans may have taken part in plays as actors or members of a chorus.

Even this was not the most important aspect of life, not for the greatest of the playwrights. Consider the life of Aeschylus, one of the two greatest, along with Sophocles. Aeschylus won the first prize more than often any playwright other than Sophocles, but he defined himself before everything else as a citizen who fought the Persians at Marathon in 490 BCE to defend democracy and he likely fought again at Salamis in 480 BCE.

For Aeschylus, pride in Athens and a sense of the common good were the heart of what it was to be a man of distinction. The words that he composed for the epitaph on his tombstone ? he probably wrote them himself ? commemorated his service as a soldier and citizen. He said nothing of his stature as the foremost poet of dramatic tragedy or the many honors he won at the festivals.

?This memorial covers Aischylos son of Euphorion ? an Athenian, though he died at wheat-bearing Gela.
Of his glorious prowess the sacred land of Marathon can tell ? and the long-haired Mede (Persian) who knows it well.?

Bernard Knox once wrote that the paper monuments of ancient Greece have stood longer and in better condition than the stones, and I have studied them more carefully than I have studied the Parthenon.

It is fair to say that I understand Greek tragedy. Or at least it is fair to say that I have read the tragedies. Only a few survive of the many that Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides wrote, though. Translations differ, from the florid 19th century translations to the excellent modern translations of Richmond Lattimore, the powerful renditions of Robert Fagles, and the contemporary versions of Ruby Blondell.

The tragedies contain very little about knowledge domains. These are quasi-sacred works, sacred in the sense that they were written for the great sacred occasions of civic life. The tragedies concern the deep qualities of human being, the acts of gods, human obligations toward the gods, human obligations toward one another, and the obligation to understand and to do what is right ? often at a high cost.

What I wrote yesterday was that the Greeks established knowledge domains, and that these domains were not unified. This is not a backward look imposing 15th century views or 21st century views on the men and women of the 5th century BCE. It is an account of their view as they saw it in their own time. The classical Greeks taught and transmitted techne and episteme in different ways to different kinds of people. These people did not generally share their knowledge with one another. A small farmer with a freehold and some olive groves might need to know more about managing the farm and instructing the work of his slaves than the sons of wealthy aristocrats would need to know for the management of far larger estates, but they learned none of this in the formal knowledge of the schools.

There have been many different ways that different societies defined knowledge and organized it. These involved very different kinds of distinctions about what knowledge was, who might practice different kinds of knowledge, how knowledge was to be maintained, preserved and transmitted. I am not imposing 15th-century ideas on earlier cultures. I am reporting what those cultures said of themselves.

And, yes, I know that Galileo worked for universities founded by Papal decree. It is nevertheless incorrect to say that theologians funded Galileo. The church had many arms, and the church often appointed priests to manage them. Since all ordained priests were required to study theology within their formative education, all were theologians in some sense. Relatively few, however, were professional theologians.

Since Galileo received patronage from high prelates at different points in his career, it is in a sense true that theologians funded his work ? but *not* in their capacity as theologians.

When Galileo's research moved beyond the bounds of acceptable doctrine, the Inquisition made a case against Galileo on theological grounds. The inquisitors are the theologians to whom I referred. The inquisitors acted as professional theologians within the scope of their assigned theological duties. These theologians were not the same people who funded Galileo?s earlier work.

Before dispensing advice on the research that I should do, I?d suggest that you catch up on your own reading. The Pandidakterion was, for all practical purposes, a university, and many historians describe it as a university. It did not have the university structure of the medieval Western universities, but it did have the same kinds of professional schools where people could study law and medicine, as well as other disciplines. Like many Western universities, the role of the Pandidakterion was to produce an educated professional bureaucracy to serve the needs of the state.

In the West, cathedral schools grew into universities with the right to deliver the Studium Generale, and Papal foundations generally meant this at the start. The Pandidakterion was a direct imperial foundation, and there was no papal oversight. It had two or three dozen professorial chairs. The professors functioned by teaching through a structure of disciplines organized within schools. In this, the Pandidakterion partly resembled the Library and Museion of Alexandria, which also functioned as a university-like organization. The Library had a much larger staff than the Pandidakterion, with over 80 permanent professorial chairs at its greatest extent.

If you are proposing The Pandidakterion as an example of holistic, undivided knowledge, it is the wrong example. You can study nearly every subject under the sun at The University of California, or at Oxford, or Edinburgh. But you cannot study all this knowledge in one place, and you are obliged to work your way through the disciplines before you are admitted to higher study. Pandidakterion does not mean ?holistic education.? Rather, it refers to an institution that has responsibility for all the branches of learning in one place, much as a Pantheon is a place that gathers all the gods of one tradition or religion.

The Pandidakterion produced scholars, scientists, administrator, lawyers, physicians, and bureaucrats. Most of these were specialists dedicated to one profession or another, one discipline or another, much like the graduates of the modern university. Ekphrasis is something else entirely ? the mission of the Pandidakterion was to graduate experts, not to produce ekphrasis.

Yours,

Ken Friedman

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/

Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia

Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn

> On Jun 3, 2017, at 11:37 PM, Katreina Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Ken,
>
> It would never seem correct if you are using the standards generated after the 15th century.
> Concepts as "practical, fine and applied arts", "domains" "universities" are maybe the ones that confuse you in finding the way to acknowledge the "unified knowledge".
>
> Techne, episteme and philosophy governed the entire era of classical Greece. If you want evidence, you can study a bit more the Parthenon and/or Greek tragedy. No one speaks about "fine and applied arts" neither about the way philosophy was recorded from the Enlightenment and on. Philosophia means to be a friend with wisdom and for the ancient Greeks wisdom was the process of contemplation.
>
> As for Byzantium there wasn't any University but a Pandidakterion which literally means holistic education. You should go through an extended research to examine how they managed to incorporate all fields of knowledge and manifest it to a single Ekphrasis.
> When i am referring to economy, I don't mean finance, although i should mention here that the ones you called "theologians" who thought that the sun stands still, were the people who funded Galileo. You should consider economy as the process of provision by which one is able to select their investment in human capital.
>
> And this is actually where one can find the restore point. Hence, it is not about the quantity of knowledge, or else we should refer to ourselves as encyclopedists. It is more about what economy we use to acknowledge and to use this knowledge.
>
> Katerina
>
>> On 02 Jun 2017, at 17:04, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Katerna,
>>
>> This account of an era of unified knowledge does not seem correct to me.
>>
>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?snip?
>>
>>> What seems strange to me is why, since we are discussing about cultural heritage and art - science alliance, we consider them as separate. The fragmentation in knowledge happened after the 15th century and had been established in modern era, as knowledge economy. Before that, geometry, physics, astronomy, medicine, arts, rhetoric and philosophy consisted the body of knowledge which was indivisible.
>>> Hence, if we go back, searching for this specific restore point, in where the holistic knowledge was the common process of learning, researching, creating and producing, we will find all the necessary elements for retrieving the ways that this knowledge can be activated in nowadays.
>>
>> ?snip?
>>
>> First, there have been different accounts of the divisions of knowledge domains over the centuries. There has never been a time anywhere in which the several kinds of knowledge were considered whole and indivisible. The divisions of knowledge domains that dominated classical Greece and the post-Alexandrian Hellenic world did not include the practical arts or professions in the domains of philosophy. Things changed again in the medieval university, but even there, the trivium and quadrivium did not include the fine or applied arts ? while the lower faculty of philosophy was different to the higher faculties of medicine, law and theology. Medicine itself distinguished between the medical theory taught at university and the work of barber-surgeons who actually worked on patients.
>>
>> Second, the changes that took place in the 15th century did not come about because of any shift in economic models. What happened was the scientists began to look at the world. 15th-century physics was a branch of natural philosophy. 15th-century physics accepted much of Aristotle?s often-mistaken account translated through the lens of Ptolemy. The Copernican model that arrived in the 16th century, followed by the work of Galileo, Kepler, and Newton meant a different world. This was not a ?fragmentation? of some unified knowledge that could be ?restored.? New facts made it impossible to think of the world in a fuzzy way governed by Aristotelian physics and a version of astrophysics dominated by Biblical theology. Literalist theologians argue that the sun stood still in Joshua 10. If the Biblical account is true, it cannot be true that the earth revolves around the sun. Talking about this as ?holistic? knowledge doesn?t make sense.
>>
>> Third, there is significantly more to know than there was to know in the 15th century. In the 15th century, we had fewer books than the number of volumes held in the Library of Alexandria when Callimachus organized the great library catalogue known as the Pinakes. Today, we have far more. Since the time of Gutenberg?s printing press, there have been millions of books published. While I cannot track the numbers from Shanghai, I gather that Google?s estimate of the world?s books runs to nearly 129,000,000 volumes not counting the same volume more than once. If you add journal articles and other material, we?re talking about an amount of information that makes a single knowledge domain impossible.
>>
>> Fourth, even within recognized disciplines, it is no longer possible for anyone in any field to cover more than a tiny fraction of what there is to know. When Henri Poincar? died in 1912, he was probably the last human being to know and understand the complete mathematical corpus of the time in which he lived. As for physics or even philosophy, the notion is incredible.
>>
>> If my view is pessimistic, I?d be curious to know two things.
>>
>> First, what evidence is there for an era of unified knowledge? It seems to me that a great deal of this idea is an optimistic notion based on an inadequate understanding of the world by people who were simply wrong about how much they knew, and just as wrong about how much of what they knew was incorrect.
>>
>> Second, just how one can ?restore? this era in a world where there is simply too much to know. I?m not asking how we can restore the illusion of unified knowledge. Too me, that?s like the Bible museum diorama in which you can see human beings living side by side with dinosaurs, rather like a new version of the Flintstone cartoon series. I?m asking for a credible account of how it is possible for anyone to restore an era of unified knowledge in a world where nearly no one can credibly manage to know what there is, even in their own field.
>>
>> It is one thing to argue in favor of interdisciplinary research. It is another to do so without accounting for what we do not know, and cannot know.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Ken Friedman
>>
>> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The
>> Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji
>> University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL:
>> http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economi
>> cs-and-innovation/
>>
>> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and
>> Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University
>> Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne
>> University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>>
>> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia
>> http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I
>> http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>>
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
>> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/


_______________________________________________
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Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/


---
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 12:51:56 -0400
From: czegledy@interlog.com
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History
To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
Message-ID: <a06240834d559e804afd3@[192.168.1.64]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"

Dear All,

Sincere apologies for my belated postings - in my next messages
I will comment on the "art*science 2017" - The New and History
discourse.

I am delighted to report that on behalf of the Leonardo
50th Committee we initiated and on behalf of the Leonardo
50th Committee, I am currently co-developing up to 14 Celebrations
in 2017 and 2018 around the world. Even more Celebrations are
organized by the Leonardo HQ.

If anybody is interested in details, or to join us, or would like to host a
Celebration please do not hesitate to contact me.

Hosts of the Leonardo 50th have been recently invited to join this
discussion. Our Leonardo 50th hosts and potential discussants:

Felipe C Londono, G. Mauricio Mej?a, Andres Burbano, ISEA2017,
Manizales, Colombia

Rejane Spitz, Pontifical Catholic University of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Mike Phillips, Ricardo Dal Farra - Balance Unbalance 2017,
Plymouth, UK

Simon Bart, Ricardo Dal Farra Concordia U, Gisele Trudel,
Hexagram, Montreal, Canada

Adam Tindale, OCADU, Matt Ratto, University of Toronto,
Canada

Ian Clothier, Intercreate org., Taranaki, New Zealand

Miklos Peternak, Zoltan Szegedy Maszak, Hungarian University
of Fine Arts, Budapest, Hungary

Bettina Schuelke, Angewandte Innovation Lab, University of Applied
Arts, Vienna, Austria

Jadwiga Charzynska, Ryszard W. Kluszczynski, IKT Congress,
Laznia Center, Gdanks, Poland

Marcus Neustetter, ISEA2018, Durban, South Africa

Lily Diaz-Kommonen, Philip Dean, Rasmus Vuori, Aalto University,
Helsinki, Finland

In progress:
Pedro Pombo, University of Aveiro, Aveiro, Portugal
Luz Mar?a S?nchez Cardona, UAM, Mexico City, Mexico
Nisar Keshvani, University of Central Asia, Kazakhstan



Best regards

Nina Czegledy

**********************************************************
Independent Artist, Curator
Adjunct Professor, Ontario College of Art and Design University, Toronto
Senior Fellow, KMDI, University of Toronto
Research Fellow, Semaphore Research Cluster, University of Toronto
Research Collaborator Hexagram International
Network for Research Creation, Montreal
Senior Fellow, Intermedia, Hungarian University of Fine Arts,Budapest
Honorary Fellow, Moholy Nagy University of Art and Design, Budapest

Member of the Governing Board Leonardo/ISAST
Board Member AICA International Association of Art Critics Canada
Chair, Intercreate org, New Zealand



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 12:52:01 -0400
From: czegledy@interlog.com
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History
To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
Message-ID: <a06240835d559ea603d95@[192.168.1.64]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Hello All,

Sincere apologies for neglecting my participation as a moderator,
nonetheless, I followed faithfully the postings and found it fascinating
how many intriguing sometimes-contradictory viewpoints enhanced
this discussion initiated by Pier Luigi Capucci in anticipation of the
Yasmin meeting at the Leonardo 50th Celebration in Bologna, the
introductory 50th Celebration in Manizales as well as all the Celebrations
to follow.

I would like to start with a request for a fresh direction concerning postings.
It would be great to receive short, provocative questions and comments
on the main topics, brief evocative thoughts from personal inter-disciplinary
experiences - again related to the discussion topics etc.,

I also would like to encourage all the silent Yasminers of all ages to
contribute as it is really important to have a broad, inter-generational,
international exchange on the vital theme proposed by Pier Luigi.

In keeping with the above request for short postings - I rest here and
address a couple points in the next messages.

All the best

Nina Czegledy



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 15:22:11 +0300
From: Elif Ayiter <ayiter@sabanciuniv.edu>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and
History
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<CALGEG-ghFofq=yFggUuvqfeka=sC-LCyXkh17ttxJqosYmXAVw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hello everyone,
My apologies for having stayed away from the discussion for a long time. I
have tried to catch up on the rather voluminous flow of exchanges, however
I have to admit that there doesn't seem to be much that I can contribute to
it since much of it falls out of my area of expertise.

Instead I would like to pick on something tangible that Pier has suggested
somewhere along the line, which is talking a bit about our own personal
work in the context of "Heritage and the Mediterranean Rim." So, first off
let me give you the link to my website where I collect images of the
"things" I make and where you can also find links to my texts:

http://www.elifayiter.com/

I am Turkish, living in Istanbul, where I have spent the bulk of my life,
except for a gap of 7 years in New York, and 2 others of 2 years each
during my youth in England. I am 64 years old (to also address Roger's
suggestion as to the relevance of age/generation as part of this
discourse). Almost everything I have made or have written about over the
past 10 years has revolved around 3 dimensional online virtual worlds - the
metaverse of Second Life and the OpenSim - and in the website linked above
you will find visual documentations of quite a bit of what I have made
there, especially over the past 5 years. In these worlds I work as an
architect (or rather as a storyworld builder since the building activity
goes beyond just architecture, in that creating geography, flora/fauna and
climate are an important part of what we do).

http://www.elifayiter.com/storyworlds

And then I also work as a fashion designer for avatar apparel - again, you
will see examples of what I make on this page on the site:

http://www.elifayiter.com/alphatribe

I use a lot of historic material when I make things. I have a huge
fascination with "old paper" as it were - be this antique prints, old maps,
miniatures, plans, blueprints, biological or scientific drawings, and and
and... My main interest is Western European "old paper" - especially from
the 17th century onward, but I sometimes wander off to other geographies
and cultures as well. I spend most of my time looking at these things - you
have no idea what a hangout wikimedia commons is for me - I am there pretty
much all the time, wandering from link to link... And I make usage of this
material quite consciously and deliberately by using it as architectural
texturing material (wall coverings and the like), as well as fabric
textures for avatar attire or as skin tattoos for avatars. And I have even
been known to put the stuff on some poor unsuspecting cows that are part of
a pastoral scene comprised of antique prints of the municipal parks of
Paris in the 18th century:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alpha_auer/21631634601/in/photolist-yXvMkg-yE6Stb-yEcvCR-yWHTRt-yE7URU


Having said that my main interest is Western European "old paper,"
nevertheless my own part of the world - i.e., Eastern Europe and Asia Minor
appears to also be significant: Although I do not make a conscious effort
to do so, the visual heritage of the particular point of the Mediterranean
rim that I come from - i.e., Ottoman / Byzantine art and architecture -
seems to play a significant role in where I get my ideas and inspirations,
especially when it comes to overall building strategies. In other words, I
seem to like to "clothe" my plants, buildings and outfits with Western
European old maps, botanical prints, engravings and so forth; but when it
comes to the actual construction of things, especially architecture and
also plants, I seem to slip into my own heritage, and I am often told that
the storyworlds that I build end up looking pretty much like what one would
expect from someone living hereabouts.

I first became aware of this subliminal inspiration and how the visual
heritage of my beloved city seemed to work its way into what I built, when,
during my very early years in the metaverse, I was blogged about as a
Byzantine metaverse builder (
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/06/the-byzantine-w.html). When reading this
post, although I really had not made a conscious effort in this regard, the
connection that the author made between my history and what I was building
made immediate sense to me - I embraced it. Which is not to say that from
that point onward I started to make deliberate attempts to integrate my
heritage into what I built. But, more often than not, it happens and it
happens naturally. Sometimes I become aware of it myself after the actual
building work is done or while I am still putting things together, and
sometimes visitors to my spaces point it out to me.

I don't know if such a self-presentation has been helpful to the overall
discussion. The main point I am trying to make, I guess, is that at least
for me heritage is something so ingrained, the impact of which is so
natural, so unforced that its inspirations happen regardless of whether we
seek them or not. Yes, of course, we become aware of it; and yes, we also
consciously integrate it into our work. But, still, the bottom-line, for
me, is that it is a natural thing we carry with us and it pours forth in
what we do regardless of whether we watch out for it or not.

best,

elif



On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Dear Ken,
>
> I congratulate you for your ambition, trying to deliver an e-learning
> lesson to a Greek person for Ancient Greek culture. Especially when this
> person has a doctorate degree in Ancient Greek and Byzantine culture.
> I encourage you to come over, learn the Greek language, study the culture,
> and then we could discuss if I am mistaken. In any case, if you are
> teaching it, it is critical to do so.
> However, because this discussion is not a history class, it wouldn?t be
> useful to continue this debate. If you want to find clues, my thesis is on
> Pearl database of Plymouth University.
>
> Katerina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:
> yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Ken Friedman
> Sent: 04 June 2017 00:38
> To: Yasmin Yasmin <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History
>
> Dear Katerina,
>
> With respect to ancient Greece, you are mistaken. I was specifically
> referring to the knowledge domains as the classical Greeks understood and
> used them
>
> Since we are writing in English for an international readership, I used
> English-language terms. I know the Greek terms. I described techne even
> though I used the terms ?fine and applied arts.? This was the realm of
> techne. Techne was a domain of knowledge that was unwritten, often tacit,
> and nearly never described except by masters to apprentices. Even then,
> techne was more often transmitted by modeling through physical example,
> much as a ballet master teaches dance. Navigators, smiths, artisans,
> sculptors, physicians and others practiced techne, and this is how they
> passed their knowledge on.
>
> Some who practiced a techne were organized in special groups that
> resembled guilds. Some even took guild oaths vowing to keep their teaching
> secret within the fraternity of the guild. They agreed to teach the arts of
> the guild to the children of other guild members and to a few indentured
> apprentices, revealing these arts to no one outside the fraternity.
>
> This was the case with the Oath of Hippocrates, the physician. Each new
> physician swore to honor his teacher as a second father, to share his
> income with his teacher as a partner, to help his teacher financially in
> times of need. He was to consider his teacher?s sons as his own brothers,
> and to teach them the art of medicine should they want to learn it with no
> fee and without indenture. The oath bound him to teach the medical
> precepts, oral instructions, and all other instruction to his own sons, the
> sons of his teacher, and to pupils who also took the physician?s oath ? but
> teach them to nobody else.
>
> Other applied arts were organized in similar ways, some formally, some
> less formally. A navigator learned specific routes from a master navigator,
> sailing by landmarks, tides, and other indicators. If you read Mark Twain?s
> description of a riverboat pilot reading the water, you can see a modern
> rendition of the ancient navigator?s education. Peter Drucker?s 1993 book
> Post-Capitalist Society explains some of these issues, distinguishing the
> modern view from that of classical Greece.
>
> The fine and applied arts were the opposite of those branches of
> philosophy that one might teach openly to all men. However, the
> philosophical education taught in such institutions as Plato?s Academy and
> Aristotle?s Lyceum were mainly available to the sons of wealthy families
> who could afford tuition. This elite philosophical education prepared young
> men for careers in public life as civic leaders, as leaders in war and
> peace, as rulers, and members of the government, as well as preparing those
> who would go on to govern and practice law.
>
> Ancient Greek philosophy was not a matter of gaining wisdom through
> contemplation. These were not monks. They polished their skills through
> dialectic and argument more than contemplation. There are famous
> contemplative incidents, such as the time that Socrates stood all night in
> the snow, thinking. We remember this because it was unusual. It was a
> testimony to Socrates?s power of concentration and his detachment from
> bodily concerns such as cold, hunger, or the need to sleep. Most Greek
> philosophers lived a normal life, not the vita contemplativa resembling the
> life of a medieval monastic. Many were active rhetors and sophists who made
> a living in the market-place selling their argumentative skill, much like
> lawyers and management consultants today.
>
> Philosophical education rested on rhetoric, analysis, and logic, including
> geometry and mathematics. Young men also engaged in sport and athletics in
> the context of their development, so that they would be ready to serve as
> warriors if the city should call.
>
> Philosophical education had several dimensions. One was episteme ? the
> study of what we may know and how we may know it. The other was phronesis ?
> the study of wise action, how we should behave and what we should do. Such
> topics as rhetoric, dialectic, argumentation theory, and the branches of
> mathematics rounded out a full education.
>
> Neither the Parthenon nor Tragedy provide evidence for these issues. The
> Parthenon and the other great physical monuments were built by specialists
> in the practice of a techne, a technical and artistic skill.
>
> The great tragedians were poets, but they were citizens and gentlemen
> first. The tragedies had a sacred and civic dimensions. While prizes were
> awarded for the great works, they had a special role in classical Greek
> life unlike anything we know today. Only the literate and well educated had
> the skill required to compete writing tragic drama for the festivals ? or,
> to be precise, writing the three tragedies and a comic satyr play that
> constituted each entry.
>
> Those who practiced a techne did not participate in the art of tragedy as
> the poets who wrote the plays, though craftsmen and artisans may have taken
> part in plays as actors or members of a chorus.
>
> Even this was not the most important aspect of life, not for the greatest
> of the playwrights. Consider the life of Aeschylus, one of the two
> greatest, along with Sophocles. Aeschylus won the first prize more than
> often any playwright other than Sophocles, but he defined himself before
> everything else as a citizen who fought the Persians at Marathon in 490 BCE
> to defend democracy and he likely fought again at Salamis in 480 BCE.
>
> For Aeschylus, pride in Athens and a sense of the common good were the
> heart of what it was to be a man of distinction. The words that he composed
> for the epitaph on his tombstone ? he probably wrote them himself ?
> commemorated his service as a soldier and citizen. He said nothing of his
> stature as the foremost poet of dramatic tragedy or the many honors he won
> at the festivals.
>
> ?This memorial covers Aischylos son of Euphorion ? an Athenian, though he
> died at wheat-bearing Gela.
> Of his glorious prowess the sacred land of Marathon can tell ? and the
> long-haired Mede (Persian) who knows it well.?
>
> Bernard Knox once wrote that the paper monuments of ancient Greece have
> stood longer and in better condition than the stones, and I have studied
> them more carefully than I have studied the Parthenon.
>
> It is fair to say that I understand Greek tragedy. Or at least it is fair
> to say that I have read the tragedies. Only a few survive of the many that
> Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides wrote, though. Translations differ,
> from the florid 19th century translations to the excellent modern
> translations of Richmond Lattimore, the powerful renditions of Robert
> Fagles, and the contemporary versions of Ruby Blondell.
>
> The tragedies contain very little about knowledge domains. These are
> quasi-sacred works, sacred in the sense that they were written for the
> great sacred occasions of civic life. The tragedies concern the deep
> qualities of human being, the acts of gods, human obligations toward the
> gods, human obligations toward one another, and the obligation to
> understand and to do what is right ? often at a high cost.
>
> What I wrote yesterday was that the Greeks established knowledge domains,
> and that these domains were not unified. This is not a backward look
> imposing 15th century views or 21st century views on the men and women of
> the 5th century BCE. It is an account of their view as they saw it in their
> own time. The classical Greeks taught and transmitted techne and episteme
> in different ways to different kinds of people. These people did not
> generally share their knowledge with one another. A small farmer with a
> freehold and some olive groves might need to know more about managing the
> farm and instructing the work of his slaves than the sons of wealthy
> aristocrats would need to know for the management of far larger estates,
> but they learned none of this in the formal knowledge of the schools.
>
> There have been many different ways that different societies defined
> knowledge and organized it. These involved very different kinds of
> distinctions about what knowledge was, who might practice different kinds
> of knowledge, how knowledge was to be maintained, preserved and
> transmitted. I am not imposing 15th-century ideas on earlier cultures. I am
> reporting what those cultures said of themselves.
>
> And, yes, I know that Galileo worked for universities founded by Papal
> decree. It is nevertheless incorrect to say that theologians funded
> Galileo. The church had many arms, and the church often appointed priests
> to manage them. Since all ordained priests were required to study theology
> within their formative education, all were theologians in some sense.
> Relatively few, however, were professional theologians.
>
> Since Galileo received patronage from high prelates at different points in
> his career, it is in a sense true that theologians funded his work ? but
> *not* in their capacity as theologians.
>
> When Galileo's research moved beyond the bounds of acceptable doctrine,
> the Inquisition made a case against Galileo on theological grounds. The
> inquisitors are the theologians to whom I referred. The inquisitors acted
> as professional theologians within the scope of their assigned theological
> duties. These theologians were not the same people who funded Galileo?s
> earlier work.
>
> Before dispensing advice on the research that I should do, I?d suggest
> that you catch up on your own reading. The Pandidakterion was, for all
> practical purposes, a university, and many historians describe it as a
> university. It did not have the university structure of the medieval
> Western universities, but it did have the same kinds of professional
> schools where people could study law and medicine, as well as other
> disciplines. Like many Western universities, the role of the Pandidakterion
> was to produce an educated professional bureaucracy to serve the needs of
> the state.
>
> In the West, cathedral schools grew into universities with the right to
> deliver the Studium Generale, and Papal foundations generally meant this at
> the start. The Pandidakterion was a direct imperial foundation, and there
> was no papal oversight. It had two or three dozen professorial chairs. The
> professors functioned by teaching through a structure of disciplines
> organized within schools. In this, the Pandidakterion partly resembled the
> Library and Museion of Alexandria, which also functioned as a
> university-like organization. The Library had a much larger staff than the
> Pandidakterion, with over 80 permanent professorial chairs at its greatest
> extent.
>
> If you are proposing The Pandidakterion as an example of holistic,
> undivided knowledge, it is the wrong example. You can study nearly every
> subject under the sun at The University of California, or at Oxford, or
> Edinburgh. But you cannot study all this knowledge in one place, and you
> are obliged to work your way through the disciplines before you are
> admitted to higher study. Pandidakterion does not mean ?holistic
> education.? Rather, it refers to an institution that has responsibility for
> all the branches of learning in one place, much as a Pantheon is a place
> that gathers all the gods of one tradition or religion.
>
> The Pandidakterion produced scholars, scientists, administrator, lawyers,
> physicians, and bureaucrats. Most of these were specialists dedicated to
> one profession or another, one discipline or another, much like the
> graduates of the modern university. Ekphrasis is something else entirely ?
> the mission of the Pandidakterion was to graduate experts, not to produce
> ekphrasis.
>
> Yours,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The
> Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji
> University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL:
> http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-
> design-economics-and-innovation/
>
> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and
> Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University
> Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne
> University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>
> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia
> http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>
> > On Jun 3, 2017, at 11:37 PM, Katreina Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear Ken,
> >
> > It would never seem correct if you are using the standards generated
> after the 15th century.
> > Concepts as "practical, fine and applied arts", "domains" "universities"
> are maybe the ones that confuse you in finding the way to acknowledge the
> "unified knowledge".
> >
> > Techne, episteme and philosophy governed the entire era of classical
> Greece. If you want evidence, you can study a bit more the Parthenon and/or
> Greek tragedy. No one speaks about "fine and applied arts" neither about
> the way philosophy was recorded from the Enlightenment and on. Philosophia
> means to be a friend with wisdom and for the ancient Greeks wisdom was the
> process of contemplation.
> >
> > As for Byzantium there wasn't any University but a Pandidakterion which
> literally means holistic education. You should go through an extended
> research to examine how they managed to incorporate all fields of knowledge
> and manifest it to a single Ekphrasis.
> > When i am referring to economy, I don't mean finance, although i should
> mention here that the ones you called "theologians" who thought that the
> sun stands still, were the people who funded Galileo. You should consider
> economy as the process of provision by which one is able to select their
> investment in human capital.
> >
> > And this is actually where one can find the restore point. Hence, it is
> not about the quantity of knowledge, or else we should refer to ourselves
> as encyclopedists. It is more about what economy we use to acknowledge and
> to use this knowledge.
> >
> > Katerina
> >
> >> On 02 Jun 2017, at 17:04, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Katerna,
> >>
> >> This account of an era of unified knowledge does not seem correct to me.
> >>
> >>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?snip?
> >>
> >>> What seems strange to me is why, since we are discussing about
> cultural heritage and art - science alliance, we consider them as separate.
> The fragmentation in knowledge happened after the 15th century and had been
> established in modern era, as knowledge economy. Before that, geometry,
> physics, astronomy, medicine, arts, rhetoric and philosophy consisted the
> body of knowledge which was indivisible.
> >>> Hence, if we go back, searching for this specific restore point, in
> where the holistic knowledge was the common process of learning,
> researching, creating and producing, we will find all the necessary
> elements for retrieving the ways that this knowledge can be activated in
> nowadays.
> >>
> >> ?snip?
> >>
> >> First, there have been different accounts of the divisions of knowledge
> domains over the centuries. There has never been a time anywhere in which
> the several kinds of knowledge were considered whole and indivisible. The
> divisions of knowledge domains that dominated classical Greece and the
> post-Alexandrian Hellenic world did not include the practical arts or
> professions in the domains of philosophy. Things changed again in the
> medieval university, but even there, the trivium and quadrivium did not
> include the fine or applied arts ? while the lower faculty of philosophy
> was different to the higher faculties of medicine, law and theology.
> Medicine itself distinguished between the medical theory taught at
> university and the work of barber-surgeons who actually worked on patients.
> >>
> >> Second, the changes that took place in the 15th century did not come
> about because of any shift in economic models. What happened was the
> scientists began to look at the world. 15th-century physics was a branch of
> natural philosophy. 15th-century physics accepted much of Aristotle?s
> often-mistaken account translated through the lens of Ptolemy. The
> Copernican model that arrived in the 16th century, followed by the work of
> Galileo, Kepler, and Newton meant a different world. This was not a
> ?fragmentation? of some unified knowledge that could be ?restored.? New
> facts made it impossible to think of the world in a fuzzy way governed by
> Aristotelian physics and a version of astrophysics dominated by Biblical
> theology. Literalist theologians argue that the sun stood still in Joshua
> 10. If the Biblical account is true, it cannot be true that the earth
> revolves around the sun. Talking about this as ?holistic? knowledge doesn?t
> make sense.
> >>
> >> Third, there is significantly more to know than there was to know in
> the 15th century. In the 15th century, we had fewer books than the number
> of volumes held in the Library of Alexandria when Callimachus organized the
> great library catalogue known as the Pinakes. Today, we have far more.
> Since the time of Gutenberg?s printing press, there have been millions of
> books published. While I cannot track the numbers from Shanghai, I gather
> that Google?s estimate of the world?s books runs to nearly 129,000,000
> volumes not counting the same volume more than once. If you add journal
> articles and other material, we?re talking about an amount of information
> that makes a single knowledge domain impossible.
> >>
> >> Fourth, even within recognized disciplines, it is no longer possible
> for anyone in any field to cover more than a tiny fraction of what there is
> to know. When Henri Poincar? died in 1912, he was probably the last human
> being to know and understand the complete mathematical corpus of the time
> in which he lived. As for physics or even philosophy, the notion is
> incredible.
> >>
> >> If my view is pessimistic, I?d be curious to know two things.
> >>
> >> First, what evidence is there for an era of unified knowledge? It seems
> to me that a great deal of this idea is an optimistic notion based on an
> inadequate understanding of the world by people who were simply wrong about
> how much they knew, and just as wrong about how much of what they knew was
> incorrect.
> >>
> >> Second, just how one can ?restore? this era in a world where there is
> simply too much to know. I?m not asking how we can restore the illusion of
> unified knowledge. Too me, that?s like the Bible museum diorama in which
> you can see human beings living side by side with dinosaurs, rather like a
> new version of the Flintstone cartoon series. I?m asking for a credible
> account of how it is possible for anyone to restore an era of unified
> knowledge in a world where nearly no one can credibly manage to know what
> there is, even in their own field.
> >>
> >> It is one thing to argue in favor of interdisciplinary research. It is
> another to do so without accounting for what we do not know, and cannot
> know.
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >>
> >> Ken Friedman
> >>
> >> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The
> >> Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji
> >> University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL:
> >> http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economi
> >> cs-and-innovation/
> >>
> >> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and
> >> Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University
> >> Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne
> >> University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
> >>
> >> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia
> >> http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I
> >> http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
> >>
> >> --
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>
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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 19:08:59 +0000 (UTC)
From: "ale_giur@yahoo.it" <ale_giur@yahoo.it>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] R: Re: art*science 2017 - The New and
History
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <1831496916.2758756.1496603339369@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Dear Yasminers,
besides any kind of digression, I invite You to consider that part of culture which is called '' Open Science'':?
since the 50's, many scientists decided to open their researches to the most wide public audience. In Europe, we have important centers of Open Science in Amsterdam and Bucarest.?
I Think it would be very useful to invite to the present topic some of those scientists Who decided to promote free scientific information, which I Believe it is one of the most important goals of free information, accelerated by the new media.?Maybe, one day, art and science could speak the same language and exchange respective achievements.?Besides, I Think that would help humanity in getting better life conditions, as, at the present time, good conditions are reserved only to rich People, like science is.?Getting science for free would be a good inheritance for our posterity. As You know, scientists never ask artists to participate to their job to improve their knowledge. On the other side, artists always need science achievements to improve their techniques and philosophy. So, let's try to kick that goal and open to Open science. Let's do that first step towards this revolutionary exchange approach. That would be a great goal for artists and art therorists: in this way, !
maybe in a future, anyone could get to know science freely and finely through fine arts.I'm just a free Thinker, As I actually stopped to collaborate with universities and tribunals. My daughter, whose name is Yasmeen, had a big motor crash a couple of years ago. So, I dedicate all My time to her, as long as she Will be better again. In the meanwhile, I keep on following My beating heart.
Cheers,?Alessia Giurdanella?


Inviato da Yahoo Mail su Android

Il sab, 3 giu, 2017 alle 19:09, Katreina Karoussos<kkaroussos@gmail.com> ha scritto:
Dear Ken,

It would never seem correct if you are using the standards generated after the 15th century.
Concepts as "practical, fine and applied arts", "domains" "universities" are maybe the ones that confuse you in finding the way to acknowledge the "unified knowledge".

Techne, episteme and philosophy governed the entire? era of classical Greece. If you want evidence, you can study a bit more the Parthenon and/or Greek tragedy. No one speaks about "fine and applied arts" neither about the way philosophy was recorded from the Enlightenment and on. Philosophia means to be a friend with wisdom and for the ancient Greeks wisdom was the process of contemplation.

As for Byzantium there wasn't any University but a Pandidakterion which literally means holistic education. You should go through an extended research to examine how they managed to incorporate all fields of knowledge and manifest it to a single Ekphrasis.
When i am referring to economy, I don't mean finance, although i should mention here that the ones you called "theologians" who thought that the sun stands still, were the people who funded Galileo. You should consider economy as the process of provision by which one is able to select their investment in human capital.

And this is actually where one can find the restore point. Hence, it is not about the quantity of knowledge, or else we should refer to ourselves as encyclopedists. It is more about what economy we use to acknowledge and to use this knowledge.

Katerina

> On 02 Jun 2017, at 17:04, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Katerna,
>
> This account of an era of unified knowledge does not seem correct to me.
>
>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?snip?
>
>> What seems strange to me is why, since we are discussing about cultural heritage and art - science alliance, we consider them as separate. The fragmentation in knowledge happened after the 15th century and had been established in modern era, as knowledge economy. Before that, geometry, physics, astronomy, medicine, arts, rhetoric and philosophy consisted the body of knowledge which was indivisible.
>> Hence, if we go back, searching for this specific restore point, in where the holistic knowledge was the common process of learning, researching, creating and producing, we will find all the necessary? elements for retrieving the ways that this knowledge can be activated in nowadays.
>
> ?snip?
>
> First, there have been different accounts of the divisions of knowledge domains over the centuries. There has never been a time anywhere in which the several kinds of knowledge were considered whole and indivisible. The divisions of knowledge domains that dominated classical Greece and the post-Alexandrian Hellenic world did not include the practical arts or professions in the domains of philosophy. Things changed again in the medieval university, but even there, the trivium and quadrivium did not include the fine or applied arts ? while the lower faculty of philosophy was different to the higher faculties of medicine, law and theology. Medicine itself distinguished between the medical theory taught at university and the work of barber-surgeons who actually worked on patients.
>
> Second, the changes that took place in the 15th century did not come about because of any shift in economic models. What happened was the scientists began to look at the world. 15th-century physics was a branch of natural philosophy. 15th-century physics accepted much of Aristotle?s often-mistaken account translated through the lens of Ptolemy. The Copernican model that arrived in the 16th century, followed by the work of Galileo, Kepler, and Newton meant a different world. This was not a ?fragmentation? of some unified knowledge that could be ?restored.? New facts made it impossible to think of the world in a fuzzy way governed by Aristotelian physics and a version of astrophysics dominated by Biblical theology. Literalist theologians argue that the sun stood still in Joshua 10. If the Biblical account is true, it cannot be true that the earth revolves around the sun. Talking about this as ?holistic? knowledge doesn?t make sense.
>
> Third, there is significantly more to know than there was to know in the 15th century. In the 15th century, we had fewer books than the number of volumes held in the Library of Alexandria when Callimachus organized the great library catalogue known as the Pinakes. Today, we have far more. Since the time of Gutenberg?s printing press, there have been millions of books published. While I cannot track the numbers from Shanghai, I gather that Google?s estimate of the world?s books runs to nearly 129,000,000 volumes not counting the same volume more than once. If you add journal articles and other material, we?re talking about an amount of information that makes a single knowledge domain impossible.
>
> Fourth, even within recognized disciplines, it is no longer possible for anyone in any field to cover more than a tiny fraction of what there is to know. When Henri Poincar? died in 1912, he was probably the last human being to know and understand the complete mathematical corpus of the time in which he lived. As for physics or even philosophy, the notion is incredible.
>
> If my view is pessimistic, I?d be curious to know two things.
>
> First, what evidence is there for an era of unified knowledge? It seems to me that a great deal of this idea is an optimistic notion based on an inadequate understanding of the world by people who were simply wrong about how much they knew, and just as wrong about how much of what they knew was incorrect.?
>
> Second, just how one can ?restore? this era in a world where there is simply too much to know. I?m not asking how we can restore the illusion of unified knowledge. Too me, that?s like the Bible museum diorama in which you can see human beings living side by side with dinosaurs, rather like a new version of the Flintstone cartoon series. I?m asking for a credible account of how it is possible for anyone to restore an era of unified knowledge in a world where nearly no one can credibly manage to know what there is, even in their own field.
>
> It is one thing to argue in favor of interdisciplinary research. It is another to do so without accounting for what we do not know, and cannot know.
>
> Sincerely,?
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/
>
> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>
> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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_______________________________________________
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SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:38:28 -0400
From: czegledy@interlog.com
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History
To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
Message-ID: <a06240836d559f2be337f@[192.168.1.64]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"

Hello All,

A few comments based on my collaborative working experience.

On history and cultural heritage: Ziva Lubec pointed out in an
earlier post: 'Both tangible and intangible heritage has been ?
processed in different ways for different political and economic
motives and no mode of preservation and presentation of the heritage
can be taken for granted'.

I fully agree with her concern about the preservation of cultural history
in the age of shrinking support for humanistic academic studies -
although if we consider Roberta Buiani's view of cultural
heritage 'as something dynamic, constantly changing, crisscrossed
by all sorts of odd, subtle and definitely oppressive relations of power,
and definitely multi-layered' - hope remains for 'History and cultural
heritage to become key elements from cultural, historical, social as
well as economic viewpoints?' (Pier Luigi Capucci) - do you agree?

How do we proceed from historical heritage to the now and the next?
I trust education. On one hand "Stem to Steam" is gaining momentum,
moreover dual degree programs are on the rise. Beyond traditional
formal education personally I am a believer in exploring the concepts and
practice of holistic traditional knowledge transfer as investigated by
scientists (D Bohm, J Benito-Bilbao, Czegledy&Reimann) and practiced
for centuries in a variety of forms by indigenous
people around the world
(http://www.scidev.net/global/indigenous/opinion/modern-science-needs-traditional-knowledge-1.html,
http://www.unesco.org/education/tlsf/mods/theme_c/mod11.html)



Nina Czegledy

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 07:38:56 +0200
From: Kathelin Gray <kathelin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and
History
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <8200C1C9-DC53-4BF3-A7E7-05917350ABCF@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Dear Katerina,
I have been following this thread with great interest; usually it?s difficult
for me to find time to really do justice to amazing Yasmin postings,
but this has caught my interest. As our institute was partly inspired by
the multidisciplinary aspects of the Ancient Greeks, I would love to
read your thesis. Our most public project was Biosphere 2 in Arizona,
in which we also incorporated elements of practice you describe.
We have a theatrical arm, and spent years performing Aeschylus
etc, as well as contemporary pieces.
How do I do get a copy of your thesis? Not sure how to access the
Plymouth database.
my email is kgray@ecotechnics.edu.
All bests to all, Kathelin Gray
www.ecotechnics.edu
www.rvheraclitus.org

On Jun 4, 2017, at 10:29, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Dear Ken,
>
> I congratulate you for your ambition, trying to deliver an e-learning lesson to a Greek person for Ancient Greek culture. Especially when this person has a doctorate degree in Ancient Greek and Byzantine culture.
> I encourage you to come over, learn the Greek language, study the culture, and then we could discuss if I am mistaken. In any case, if you are teaching it, it is critical to do so.
> However, because this discussion is not a history class, it wouldn?t be useful to continue this debate. If you want to find clues, my thesis is on Pearl database of Plymouth University.
>
> Katerina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Ken Friedman
> Sent: 04 June 2017 00:38
> To: Yasmin Yasmin <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History
>
> Dear Katerina,
>
> With respect to ancient Greece, you are mistaken. I was specifically referring to the knowledge domains as the classical Greeks understood and used them
>
> Since we are writing in English for an international readership, I used English-language terms. I know the Greek terms. I described techne even though I used the terms ?fine and applied arts.? This was the realm of techne. Techne was a domain of knowledge that was unwritten, often tacit, and nearly never described except by masters to apprentices. Even then, techne was more often transmitted by modeling through physical example, much as a ballet master teaches dance. Navigators, smiths, artisans, sculptors, physicians and others practiced techne, and this is how they passed their knowledge on.
>
> Some who practiced a techne were organized in special groups that resembled guilds. Some even took guild oaths vowing to keep their teaching secret within the fraternity of the guild. They agreed to teach the arts of the guild to the children of other guild members and to a few indentured apprentices, revealing these arts to no one outside the fraternity.
>
> This was the case with the Oath of Hippocrates, the physician. Each new physician swore to honor his teacher as a second father, to share his income with his teacher as a partner, to help his teacher financially in times of need. He was to consider his teacher?s sons as his own brothers, and to teach them the art of medicine should they want to learn it with no fee and without indenture. The oath bound him to teach the medical precepts, oral instructions, and all other instruction to his own sons, the sons of his teacher, and to pupils who also took the physician?s oath ? but teach them to nobody else.
>
> Other applied arts were organized in similar ways, some formally, some less formally. A navigator learned specific routes from a master navigator, sailing by landmarks, tides, and other indicators. If you read Mark Twain?s description of a riverboat pilot reading the water, you can see a modern rendition of the ancient navigator?s education. Peter Drucker?s 1993 book Post-Capitalist Society explains some of these issues, distinguishing the modern view from that of classical Greece.
>
> The fine and applied arts were the opposite of those branches of philosophy that one might teach openly to all men. However, the philosophical education taught in such institutions as Plato?s Academy and Aristotle?s Lyceum were mainly available to the sons of wealthy families who could afford tuition. This elite philosophical education prepared young men for careers in public life as civic leaders, as leaders in war and peace, as rulers, and members of the government, as well as preparing those who would go on to govern and practice law.
>
> Ancient Greek philosophy was not a matter of gaining wisdom through contemplation. These were not monks. They polished their skills through dialectic and argument more than contemplation. There are famous contemplative incidents, such as the time that Socrates stood all night in the snow, thinking. We remember this because it was unusual. It was a testimony to Socrates?s power of concentration and his detachment from bodily concerns such as cold, hunger, or the need to sleep. Most Greek philosophers lived a normal life, not the vita contemplativa resembling the life of a medieval monastic. Many were active rhetors and sophists who made a living in the market-place selling their argumentative skill, much like lawyers and management consultants today.
>
> Philosophical education rested on rhetoric, analysis, and logic, including geometry and mathematics. Young men also engaged in sport and athletics in the context of their development, so that they would be ready to serve as warriors if the city should call.
>
> Philosophical education had several dimensions. One was episteme ? the study of what we may know and how we may know it. The other was phronesis ? the study of wise action, how we should behave and what we should do. Such topics as rhetoric, dialectic, argumentation theory, and the branches of mathematics rounded out a full education.
>
> Neither the Parthenon nor Tragedy provide evidence for these issues. The Parthenon and the other great physical monuments were built by specialists in the practice of a techne, a technical and artistic skill.
>
> The great tragedians were poets, but they were citizens and gentlemen first. The tragedies had a sacred and civic dimensions. While prizes were awarded for the great works, they had a special role in classical Greek life unlike anything we know today. Only the literate and well educated had the skill required to compete writing tragic drama for the festivals ? or, to be precise, writing the three tragedies and a comic satyr play that constituted each entry.
>
> Those who practiced a techne did not participate in the art of tragedy as the poets who wrote the plays, though craftsmen and artisans may have taken part in plays as actors or members of a chorus.
>
> Even this was not the most important aspect of life, not for the greatest of the playwrights. Consider the life of Aeschylus, one of the two greatest, along with Sophocles. Aeschylus won the first prize more than often any playwright other than Sophocles, but he defined himself before everything else as a citizen who fought the Persians at Marathon in 490 BCE to defend democracy and he likely fought again at Salamis in 480 BCE.
>
> For Aeschylus, pride in Athens and a sense of the common good were the heart of what it was to be a man of distinction. The words that he composed for the epitaph on his tombstone ? he probably wrote them himself ? commemorated his service as a soldier and citizen. He said nothing of his stature as the foremost poet of dramatic tragedy or the many honors he won at the festivals.
>
> ?This memorial covers Aischylos son of Euphorion ? an Athenian, though he died at wheat-bearing Gela.
> Of his glorious prowess the sacred land of Marathon can tell ? and the long-haired Mede (Persian) who knows it well.?
>
> Bernard Knox once wrote that the paper monuments of ancient Greece have stood longer and in better condition than the stones, and I have studied them more carefully than I have studied the Parthenon.
>
> It is fair to say that I understand Greek tragedy. Or at least it is fair to say that I have read the tragedies. Only a few survive of the many that Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides wrote, though. Translations differ, from the florid 19th century translations to the excellent modern translations of Richmond Lattimore, the powerful renditions of Robert Fagles, and the contemporary versions of Ruby Blondell.
>
> The tragedies contain very little about knowledge domains. These are quasi-sacred works, sacred in the sense that they were written for the great sacred occasions of civic life. The tragedies concern the deep qualities of human being, the acts of gods, human obligations toward the gods, human obligations toward one another, and the obligation to understand and to do what is right ? often at a high cost.
>
> What I wrote yesterday was that the Greeks established knowledge domains, and that these domains were not unified. This is not a backward look imposing 15th century views or 21st century views on the men and women of the 5th century BCE. It is an account of their view as they saw it in their own time. The classical Greeks taught and transmitted techne and episteme in different ways to different kinds of people. These people did not generally share their knowledge with one another. A small farmer with a freehold and some olive groves might need to know more about managing the farm and instructing the work of his slaves than the sons of wealthy aristocrats would need to know for the management of far larger estates, but they learned none of this in the formal knowledge of the schools.
>
> There have been many different ways that different societies defined knowledge and organized it. These involved very different kinds of distinctions about what knowledge was, who might practice different kinds of knowledge, how knowledge was to be maintained, preserved and transmitted. I am not imposing 15th-century ideas on earlier cultures. I am reporting what those cultures said of themselves.
>
> And, yes, I know that Galileo worked for universities founded by Papal decree. It is nevertheless incorrect to say that theologians funded Galileo. The church had many arms, and the church often appointed priests to manage them. Since all ordained priests were required to study theology within their formative education, all were theologians in some sense. Relatively few, however, were professional theologians.
>
> Since Galileo received patronage from high prelates at different points in his career, it is in a sense true that theologians funded his work ? but *not* in their capacity as theologians.
>
> When Galileo's research moved beyond the bounds of acceptable doctrine, the Inquisition made a case against Galileo on theological grounds. The inquisitors are the theologians to whom I referred. The inquisitors acted as professional theologians within the scope of their assigned theological duties. These theologians were not the same people who funded Galileo?s earlier work.
>
> Before dispensing advice on the research that I should do, I?d suggest that you catch up on your own reading. The Pandidakterion was, for all practical purposes, a university, and many historians describe it as a university. It did not have the university structure of the medieval Western universities, but it did have the same kinds of professional schools where people could study law and medicine, as well as other disciplines. Like many Western universities, the role of the Pandidakterion was to produce an educated professional bureaucracy to serve the needs of the state.
>
> In the West, cathedral schools grew into universities with the right to deliver the Studium Generale, and Papal foundations generally meant this at the start. The Pandidakterion was a direct imperial foundation, and there was no papal oversight. It had two or three dozen professorial chairs. The professors functioned by teaching through a structure of disciplines organized within schools. In this, the Pandidakterion partly resembled the Library and Museion of Alexandria, which also functioned as a university-like organization. The Library had a much larger staff than the Pandidakterion, with over 80 permanent professorial chairs at its greatest extent.
>
> If you are proposing The Pandidakterion as an example of holistic, undivided knowledge, it is the wrong example. You can study nearly every subject under the sun at The University of California, or at Oxford, or Edinburgh. But you cannot study all this knowledge in one place, and you are obliged to work your way through the disciplines before you are admitted to higher study. Pandidakterion does not mean ?holistic education.? Rather, it refers to an institution that has responsibility for all the branches of learning in one place, much as a Pantheon is a place that gathers all the gods of one tradition or religion.
>
> The Pandidakterion produced scholars, scientists, administrator, lawyers, physicians, and bureaucrats. Most of these were specialists dedicated to one profession or another, one discipline or another, much like the graduates of the modern university. Ekphrasis is something else entirely ? the mission of the Pandidakterion was to graduate experts, not to produce ekphrasis.
>
> Yours,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/
>
> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>
> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>
>> On Jun 3, 2017, at 11:37 PM, Katreina Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Ken,
>>
>> It would never seem correct if you are using the standards generated after the 15th century.
>> Concepts as "practical, fine and applied arts", "domains" "universities" are maybe the ones that confuse you in finding the way to acknowledge the "unified knowledge".
>>
>> Techne, episteme and philosophy governed the entire era of classical Greece. If you want evidence, you can study a bit more the Parthenon and/or Greek tragedy. No one speaks about "fine and applied arts" neither about the way philosophy was recorded from the Enlightenment and on. Philosophia means to be a friend with wisdom and for the ancient Greeks wisdom was the process of contemplation.
>>
>> As for Byzantium there wasn't any University but a Pandidakterion which literally means holistic education. You should go through an extended research to examine how they managed to incorporate all fields of knowledge and manifest it to a single Ekphrasis.
>> When i am referring to economy, I don't mean finance, although i should mention here that the ones you called "theologians" who thought that the sun stands still, were the people who funded Galileo. You should consider economy as the process of provision by which one is able to select their investment in human capital.
>>
>> And this is actually where one can find the restore point. Hence, it is not about the quantity of knowledge, or else we should refer to ourselves as encyclopedists. It is more about what economy we use to acknowledge and to use this knowledge.
>>
>> Katerina
>>
>>> On 02 Jun 2017, at 17:04, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Katerna,
>>>
>>> This account of an era of unified knowledge does not seem correct to me.
>>>
>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?snip?
>>>
>>>> What seems strange to me is why, since we are discussing about cultural heritage and art - science alliance, we consider them as separate. The fragmentation in knowledge happened after the 15th century and had been established in modern era, as knowledge economy. Before that, geometry, physics, astronomy, medicine, arts, rhetoric and philosophy consisted the body of knowledge which was indivisible.
>>>> Hence, if we go back, searching for this specific restore point, in where the holistic knowledge was the common process of learning, researching, creating and producing, we will find all the necessary elements for retrieving the ways that this knowledge can be activated in nowadays.
>>>
>>> ?snip?
>>>
>>> First, there have been different accounts of the divisions of knowledge domains over the centuries. There has never been a time anywhere in which the several kinds of knowledge were considered whole and indivisible. The divisions of knowledge domains that dominated classical Greece and the post-Alexandrian Hellenic world did not include the practical arts or professions in the domains of philosophy. Things changed again in the medieval university, but even there, the trivium and quadrivium did not include the fine or applied arts ? while the lower faculty of philosophy was different to the higher faculties of medicine, law and theology. Medicine itself distinguished between the medical theory taught at university and the work of barber-surgeons who actually worked on patients.
>>>
>>> Second, the changes that took place in the 15th century did not come about because of any shift in economic models. What happened was the scientists began to look at the world. 15th-century physics was a branch of natural philosophy. 15th-century physics accepted much of Aristotle?s often-mistaken account translated through the lens of Ptolemy. The Copernican model that arrived in the 16th century, followed by the work of Galileo, Kepler, and Newton meant a different world. This was not a ?fragmentation? of some unified knowledge that could be ?restored.? New facts made it impossible to think of the world in a fuzzy way governed by Aristotelian physics and a version of astrophysics dominated by Biblical theology. Literalist theologians argue that the sun stood still in Joshua 10. If the Biblical account is true, it cannot be true that the earth revolves around the sun. Talking about this as ?holistic? knowledge doesn?t make sense.
>>>
>>> Third, there is significantly more to know than there was to know in the 15th century. In the 15th century, we had fewer books than the number of volumes held in the Library of Alexandria when Callimachus organized the great library catalogue known as the Pinakes. Today, we have far more. Since the time of Gutenberg?s printing press, there have been millions of books published. While I cannot track the numbers from Shanghai, I gather that Google?s estimate of the world?s books runs to nearly 129,000,000 volumes not counting the same volume more than once. If you add journal articles and other material, we?re talking about an amount of information that makes a single knowledge domain impossible.
>>>
>>> Fourth, even within recognized disciplines, it is no longer possible for anyone in any field to cover more than a tiny fraction of what there is to know. When Henri Poincar? died in 1912, he was probably the last human being to know and understand the complete mathematical corpus of the time in which he lived. As for physics or even philosophy, the notion is incredible.
>>>
>>> If my view is pessimistic, I?d be curious to know two things.
>>>
>>> First, what evidence is there for an era of unified knowledge? It seems to me that a great deal of this idea is an optimistic notion based on an inadequate understanding of the world by people who were simply wrong about how much they knew, and just as wrong about how much of what they knew was incorrect.
>>>
>>> Second, just how one can ?restore? this era in a world where there is simply too much to know. I?m not asking how we can restore the illusion of unified knowledge. Too me, that?s like the Bible museum diorama in which you can see human beings living side by side with dinosaurs, rather like a new version of the Flintstone cartoon series. I?m asking for a credible account of how it is possible for anyone to restore an era of unified knowledge in a world where nearly no one can credibly manage to know what there is, even in their own field.
>>>
>>> It is one thing to argue in favor of interdisciplinary research. It is another to do so without accounting for what we do not know, and cannot know.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Ken Friedman
>>>
>>> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The
>>> Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji
>>> University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL:
>>> http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economi
>>> cs-and-innovation/
>>>
>>> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and
>>> Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University
>>> Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne
>>> University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>>>
>>> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia
>>> http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I
>>> http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>>>
>>> --
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 13:17:13 -0500
From: roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] yasmin discussion and dialogue
netiquette
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<CAPPudS+QNMd6mnO=_aY-ZhJMFdKpdO4+JJhp0EDvFFi9h_C34w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

yasminers


our discussion seems to be gathering steam !


some netiquette suggestions to enable better dialogue

a) keep your posts short- eg 350 words or a couple of cell phone screens
b ) try to have each post address one topic or point not several
c) avoid ad hominem statements ! its very difficult to " argue' on line=
david bohm did some great work with his writing 'on dialogue"-



Roger F Malina
is in Dallas 1-5108532007
blog: malina.diatrope.com


------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 18:01:33 +0300
From: roberta buiani <rbuiani@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and
History
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <45C0B0F6-2384-47B3-A8A4-0BC53F4E8A76@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Hi all,
I find it really interesting that I am participating in this discussion while I am movung myself across a -small part- of the mediterranean (ionian islands, to Athens, to south and north of Italy). That's a fortunate coincidence, first because this gives me the opportunity to reflect more thoroughly on the ongoing discussion. But also because this is my first time I finally take more than a couple of days experiencing a world that I left 15 years ago and I am appreciating with different, but still familiar eyes.
Two items that struck as I read your comments is the importance of history and the significance of personal experience and familiarity with the tropes and patterns in understanding and working with heritage. In contemplating history, we get to know official narratives and politics shaping cultural heritage, infrastructures and the architecture of a place. But history only shows a conventional picture of this heritage. While I am interested in archival material, historical documents etc..., I am even more interested in alternative narratives and personal experiences. These are more tricky to find: you certainly don't find them in official textbooks, often they are only found as oral stories. But to assume that only written history (which is usually written from the perspective of the privileged bookish scholar) is worthy of consideration is a bit limited. I find that looking at these conventional written narratives is useful when they are accompanied by direct observation!
: for instance, monuments and architecture, just to make the obvious reference, are marked by the environment, by graffiti (I was just observing the diversity that characterizes the graffiti flourish in Athens)the chaotic overlapping of styles (Venetian architecture in Corfu, or the cacophony of styles in certain part of Rome); and signs of devotion, or joy, or power can be detected in the ways in which even when in ruin, even when just a bunch of stones, certain sites project a surprising harmony between nature and culture.
It is this type of conventional/non-conventional material that really gets me excited in my work, because its shows tensions and elicit comments from city dwellers and passers-by.

And speaking of new and old, I sometimes imagine very vivid scenes of what certain places could have looked once upon a time. A sort of mental movie.

just to respond to the request of relating our discussion to our own artistic/scholarly experience here are links to my two projects that have dealt (and still do, they are in progress) with cultural heritage in the city and in the sciences.
Transitions in Progress http://www.space-for-place.ca/
The Cabinet Project http://artscisalon.com/the-cabinet-project/



> On Jun 5, 2017, at 15:22, Elif Ayiter <ayiter@sabanciuniv.edu> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> My apologies for having stayed away from the discussion for a long time. I
> have tried to catch up on the rather voluminous flow of exchanges, however
> I have to admit that there doesn't seem to be much that I can contribute to
> it since much of it falls out of my area of expertise.
>
> Instead I would like to pick on something tangible that Pier has suggested
> somewhere along the line, which is talking a bit about our own personal
> work in the context of "Heritage and the Mediterranean Rim." So, first off
> let me give you the link to my website where I collect images of the
> "things" I make and where you can also find links to my texts:
>
> http://www.elifayiter.com/
>
> I am Turkish, living in Istanbul, where I have spent the bulk of my life,
> except for a gap of 7 years in New York, and 2 others of 2 years each
> during my youth in England. I am 64 years old (to also address Roger's
> suggestion as to the relevance of age/generation as part of this
> discourse). Almost everything I have made or have written about over the
> past 10 years has revolved around 3 dimensional online virtual worlds - the
> metaverse of Second Life and the OpenSim - and in the website linked above
> you will find visual documentations of quite a bit of what I have made
> there, especially over the past 5 years. In these worlds I work as an
> architect (or rather as a storyworld builder since the building activity
> goes beyond just architecture, in that creating geography, flora/fauna and
> climate are an important part of what we do).
>
> http://www.elifayiter.com/storyworlds
>
> And then I also work as a fashion designer for avatar apparel - again, you
> will see examples of what I make on this page on the site:
>
> http://www.elifayiter.com/alphatribe
>
> I use a lot of historic material when I make things. I have a huge
> fascination with "old paper" as it were - be this antique prints, old maps,
> miniatures, plans, blueprints, biological or scientific drawings, and and
> and... My main interest is Western European "old paper" - especially from
> the 17th century onward, but I sometimes wander off to other geographies
> and cultures as well. I spend most of my time looking at these things - you
> have no idea what a hangout wikimedia commons is for me - I am there pretty
> much all the time, wandering from link to link... And I make usage of this
> material quite consciously and deliberately by using it as architectural
> texturing material (wall coverings and the like), as well as fabric
> textures for avatar attire or as skin tattoos for avatars. And I have even
> been known to put the stuff on some poor unsuspecting cows that are part of
> a pastoral scene comprised of antique prints of the municipal parks of
> Paris in the 18th century:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/alpha_auer/21631634601/in/photolist-yXvMkg-yE6Stb-yEcvCR-yWHTRt-yE7URU
>
>
> Having said that my main interest is Western European "old paper,"
> nevertheless my own part of the world - i.e., Eastern Europe and Asia Minor
> appears to also be significant: Although I do not make a conscious effort
> to do so, the visual heritage of the particular point of the Mediterranean
> rim that I come from - i.e., Ottoman / Byzantine art and architecture -
> seems to play a significant role in where I get my ideas and inspirations,
> especially when it comes to overall building strategies. In other words, I
> seem to like to "clothe" my plants, buildings and outfits with Western
> European old maps, botanical prints, engravings and so forth; but when it
> comes to the actual construction of things, especially architecture and
> also plants, I seem to slip into my own heritage, and I am often told that
> the storyworlds that I build end up looking pretty much like what one would
> expect from someone living hereabouts.
>
> I first became aware of this subliminal inspiration and how the visual
> heritage of my beloved city seemed to work its way into what I built, when,
> during my very early years in the metaverse, I was blogged about as a
> Byzantine metaverse builder (
> http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/06/the-byzantine-w.html). When reading this
> post, although I really had not made a conscious effort in this regard, the
> connection that the author made between my history and what I was building
> made immediate sense to me - I embraced it. Which is not to say that from
> that point onward I started to make deliberate attempts to integrate my
> heritage into what I built. But, more often than not, it happens and it
> happens naturally. Sometimes I become aware of it myself after the actual
> building work is done or while I am still putting things together, and
> sometimes visitors to my spaces point it out to me.
>
> I don't know if such a self-presentation has been helpful to the overall
> discussion. The main point I am trying to make, I guess, is that at least
> for me heritage is something so ingrained, the impact of which is so
> natural, so unforced that its inspirations happen regardless of whether we
> seek them or not. Yes, of course, we become aware of it; and yes, we also
> consciously integrate it into our work. But, still, the bottom-line, for
> me, is that it is a natural thing we carry with us and it pours forth in
> what we do regardless of whether we watch out for it or not.
>
> best,
>
> elif
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Ken,
>>
>> I congratulate you for your ambition, trying to deliver an e-learning
>> lesson to a Greek person for Ancient Greek culture. Especially when this
>> person has a doctorate degree in Ancient Greek and Byzantine culture.
>> I encourage you to come over, learn the Greek language, study the culture,
>> and then we could discuss if I am mistaken. In any case, if you are
>> teaching it, it is critical to do so.
>> However, because this discussion is not a history class, it wouldn?t be
>> useful to continue this debate. If you want to find clues, my thesis is on
>> Pearl database of Plymouth University.
>>
>> Katerina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:
>> yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Ken Friedman
>> Sent: 04 June 2017 00:38
>> To: Yasmin Yasmin <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History
>>
>> Dear Katerina,
>>
>> With respect to ancient Greece, you are mistaken. I was specifically
>> referring to the knowledge domains as the classical Greeks understood and
>> used them
>>
>> Since we are writing in English for an international readership, I used
>> English-language terms. I know the Greek terms. I described techne even
>> though I used the terms ?fine and applied arts.? This was the realm of
>> techne. Techne was a domain of knowledge that was unwritten, often tacit,
>> and nearly never described except by masters to apprentices. Even then,
>> techne was more often transmitted by modeling through physical example,
>> much as a ballet master teaches dance. Navigators, smiths, artisans,
>> sculptors, physicians and others practiced techne, and this is how they
>> passed their knowledge on.
>>
>> Some who practiced a techne were organized in special groups that
>> resembled guilds. Some even took guild oaths vowing to keep their teaching
>> secret within the fraternity of the guild. They agreed to teach the arts of
>> the guild to the children of other guild members and to a few indentured
>> apprentices, revealing these arts to no one outside the fraternity.
>>
>> This was the case with the Oath of Hippocrates, the physician. Each new
>> physician swore to honor his teacher as a second father, to share his
>> income with his teacher as a partner, to help his teacher financially in
>> times of need. He was to consider his teacher?s sons as his own brothers,
>> and to teach them the art of medicine should they want to learn it with no
>> fee and without indenture. The oath bound him to teach the medical
>> precepts, oral instructions, and all other instruction to his own sons, the
>> sons of his teacher, and to pupils who also took the physician?s oath ? but
>> teach them to nobody else.
>>
>> Other applied arts were organized in similar ways, some formally, some
>> less formally. A navigator learned specific routes from a master navigator,
>> sailing by landmarks, tides, and other indicators. If you read Mark Twain?s
>> description of a riverboat pilot reading the water, you can see a modern
>> rendition of the ancient navigator?s education. Peter Drucker?s 1993 book
>> Post-Capitalist Society explains some of these issues, distinguishing the
>> modern view from that of classical Greece.
>>
>> The fine and applied arts were the opposite of those branches of
>> philosophy that one might teach openly to all men. However, the
>> philosophical education taught in such institutions as Plato?s Academy and
>> Aristotle?s Lyceum were mainly available to the sons of wealthy families
>> who could afford tuition. This elite philosophical education prepared young
>> men for careers in public life as civic leaders, as leaders in war and
>> peace, as rulers, and members of the government, as well as preparing those
>> who would go on to govern and practice law.
>>
>> Ancient Greek philosophy was not a matter of gaining wisdom through
>> contemplation. These were not monks. They polished their skills through
>> dialectic and argument more than contemplation. There are famous
>> contemplative incidents, such as the time that Socrates stood all night in
>> the snow, thinking. We remember this because it was unusual. It was a
>> testimony to Socrates?s power of concentration and his detachment from
>> bodily concerns such as cold, hunger, or the need to sleep. Most Greek
>> philosophers lived a normal life, not the vita contemplativa resembling the
>> life of a medieval monastic. Many were active rhetors and sophists who made
>> a living in the market-place selling their argumentative skill, much like
>> lawyers and management consultants today.
>>
>> Philosophical education rested on rhetoric, analysis, and logic, including
>> geometry and mathematics. Young men also engaged in sport and athletics in
>> the context of their development, so that they would be ready to serve as
>> warriors if the city should call.
>>
>> Philosophical education had several dimensions. One was episteme ? the
>> study of what we may know and how we may know it. The other was phronesis ?
>> the study of wise action, how we should behave and what we should do. Such
>> topics as rhetoric, dialectic, argumentation theory, and the branches of
>> mathematics rounded out a full education.
>>
>> Neither the Parthenon nor Tragedy provide evidence for these issues. The
>> Parthenon and the other great physical monuments were built by specialists
>> in the practice of a techne, a technical and artistic skill.
>>
>> The great tragedians were poets, but they were citizens and gentlemen
>> first. The tragedies had a sacred and civic dimensions. While prizes were
>> awarded for the great works, they had a special role in classical Greek
>> life unlike anything we know today. Only the literate and well educated had
>> the skill required to compete writing tragic drama for the festivals ? or,
>> to be precise, writing the three tragedies and a comic satyr play that
>> constituted each entry.
>>
>> Those who practiced a techne did not participate in the art of tragedy as
>> the poets who wrote the plays, though craftsmen and artisans may have taken
>> part in plays as actors or members of a chorus.
>>
>> Even this was not the most important aspect of life, not for the greatest
>> of the playwrights. Consider the life of Aeschylus, one of the two
>> greatest, along with Sophocles. Aeschylus won the first prize more than
>> often any playwright other than Sophocles, but he defined himself before
>> everything else as a citizen who fought the Persians at Marathon in 490 BCE
>> to defend democracy and he likely fought again at Salamis in 480 BCE.
>>
>> For Aeschylus, pride in Athens and a sense of the common good were the
>> heart of what it was to be a man of distinction. The words that he composed
>> for the epitaph on his tombstone ? he probably wrote them himself ?
>> commemorated his service as a soldier and citizen. He said nothing of his
>> stature as the foremost poet of dramatic tragedy or the many honors he won
>> at the festivals.
>>
>> ?This memorial covers Aischylos son of Euphorion ? an Athenian, though he
>> died at wheat-bearing Gela.
>> Of his glorious prowess the sacred land of Marathon can tell ? and the
>> long-haired Mede (Persian) who knows it well.?
>>
>> Bernard Knox once wrote that the paper monuments of ancient Greece have
>> stood longer and in better condition than the stones, and I have studied
>> them more carefully than I have studied the Parthenon.
>>
>> It is fair to say that I understand Greek tragedy. Or at least it is fair
>> to say that I have read the tragedies. Only a few survive of the many that
>> Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides wrote, though. Translations differ,
>> from the florid 19th century translations to the excellent modern
>> translations of Richmond Lattimore, the powerful renditions of Robert
>> Fagles, and the contemporary versions of Ruby Blondell.
>>
>> The tragedies contain very little about knowledge domains. These are
>> quasi-sacred works, sacred in the sense that they were written for the
>> great sacred occasions of civic life. The tragedies concern the deep
>> qualities of human being, the acts of gods, human obligations toward the
>> gods, human obligations toward one another, and the obligation to
>> understand and to do what is right ? often at a high cost.
>>
>> What I wrote yesterday was that the Greeks established knowledge domains,
>> and that these domains were not unified. This is not a backward look
>> imposing 15th century views or 21st century views on the men and women of
>> the 5th century BCE. It is an account of their view as they saw it in their
>> own time. The classical Greeks taught and transmitted techne and episteme
>> in different ways to different kinds of people. These people did not
>> generally share their knowledge with one another. A small farmer with a
>> freehold and some olive groves might need to know more about managing the
>> farm and instructing the work of his slaves than the sons of wealthy
>> aristocrats would need to know for the management of far larger estates,
>> but they learned none of this in the formal knowledge of the schools.
>>
>> There have been many different ways that different societies defined
>> knowledge and organized it. These involved very different kinds of
>> distinctions about what knowledge was, who might practice different kinds
>> of knowledge, how knowledge was to be maintained, preserved and
>> transmitted. I am not imposing 15th-century ideas on earlier cultures. I am
>> reporting what those cultures said of themselves.
>>
>> And, yes, I know that Galileo worked for universities founded by Papal
>> decree. It is nevertheless incorrect to say that theologians funded
>> Galileo. The church had many arms, and the church often appointed priests
>> to manage them. Since all ordained priests were required to study theology
>> within their formative education, all were theologians in some sense.
>> Relatively few, however, were professional theologians.
>>
>> Since Galileo received patronage from high prelates at different points in
>> his career, it is in a sense true that theologians funded his work ? but
>> *not* in their capacity as theologians.
>>
>> When Galileo's research moved beyond the bounds of acceptable doctrine,
>> the Inquisition made a case against Galileo on theological grounds. The
>> inquisitors are the theologians to whom I referred. The inquisitors acted
>> as professional theologians within the scope of their assigned theological
>> duties. These theologians were not the same people who funded Galileo?s
>> earlier work.
>>
>> Before dispensing advice on the research that I should do, I?d suggest
>> that you catch up on your own reading. The Pandidakterion was, for all
>> practical purposes, a university, and many historians describe it as a
>> university. It did not have the university structure of the medieval
>> Western universities, but it did have the same kinds of professional
>> schools where people could study law and medicine, as well as other
>> disciplines. Like many Western universities, the role of the Pandidakterion
>> was to produce an educated professional bureaucracy to serve the needs of
>> the state.
>>
>> In the West, cathedral schools grew into universities with the right to
>> deliver the Studium Generale, and Papal foundations generally meant this at
>> the start. The Pandidakterion was a direct imperial foundation, and there
>> was no papal oversight. It had two or three dozen professorial chairs. The
>> professors functioned by teaching through a structure of disciplines
>> organized within schools. In this, the Pandidakterion partly resembled the
>> Library and Museion of Alexandria, which also functioned as a
>> university-like organization. The Library had a much larger staff than the
>> Pandidakterion, with over 80 permanent professorial chairs at its greatest
>> extent.
>>
>> If you are proposing The Pandidakterion as an example of holistic,
>> undivided knowledge, it is the wrong example. You can study nearly every
>> subject under the sun at The University of California, or at Oxford, or
>> Edinburgh. But you cannot study all this knowledge in one place, and you
>> are obliged to work your way through the disciplines before you are
>> admitted to higher study. Pandidakterion does not mean ?holistic
>> education.? Rather, it refers to an institution that has responsibility for
>> all the branches of learning in one place, much as a Pantheon is a place
>> that gathers all the gods of one tradition or religion.
>>
>> The Pandidakterion produced scholars, scientists, administrator, lawyers,
>> physicians, and bureaucrats. Most of these were specialists dedicated to
>> one profession or another, one discipline or another, much like the
>> graduates of the modern university. Ekphrasis is something else entirely ?
>> the mission of the Pandidakterion was to graduate experts, not to produce
>> ekphrasis.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Ken Friedman
>>
>> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The
>> Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji
>> University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL:
>> http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-
>> design-economics-and-innovation/
>>
>> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and
>> Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University
>> Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne
>> University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>>
>> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia
>> http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>>
>>> On Jun 3, 2017, at 11:37 PM, Katreina Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Ken,
>>>
>>> It would never seem correct if you are using the standards generated
>> after the 15th century.
>>> Concepts as "practical, fine and applied arts", "domains" "universities"
>> are maybe the ones that confuse you in finding the way to acknowledge the
>> "unified knowledge".
>>>
>>> Techne, episteme and philosophy governed the entire era of classical
>> Greece. If you want evidence, you can study a bit more the Parthenon and/or
>> Greek tragedy. No one speaks about "fine and applied arts" neither about
>> the way philosophy was recorded from the Enlightenment and on. Philosophia
>> means to be a friend with wisdom and for the ancient Greeks wisdom was the
>> process of contemplation.
>>>
>>> As for Byzantium there wasn't any University but a Pandidakterion which
>> literally means holistic education. You should go through an extended
>> research to examine how they managed to incorporate all fields of knowledge
>> and manifest it to a single Ekphrasis.
>>> When i am referring to economy, I don't mean finance, although i should
>> mention here that the ones you called "theologians" who thought that the
>> sun stands still, were the people who funded Galileo. You should consider
>> economy as the process of provision by which one is able to select their
>> investment in human capital.
>>>
>>> And this is actually where one can find the restore point. Hence, it is
>> not about the quantity of knowledge, or else we should refer to ourselves
>> as encyclopedists. It is more about what economy we use to acknowledge and
>> to use this knowledge.
>>>
>>> Katerina
>>>
>>>> On 02 Jun 2017, at 17:04, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Katerna,
>>>>
>>>> This account of an era of unified knowledge does not seem correct to me.
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Katerna Karoussos <kkaroussos@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?snip?
>>>>
>>>>> What seems strange to me is why, since we are discussing about
>> cultural heritage and art - science alliance, we consider them as separate.
>> The fragmentation in knowledge happened after the 15th century and had been
>> established in modern era, as knowledge economy. Before that, geometry,
>> physics, astronomy, medicine, arts, rhetoric and philosophy consisted the
>> body of knowledge which was indivisible.
>>>>> Hence, if we go back, searching for this specific restore point, in
>> where the holistic knowledge was the common process of learning,
>> researching, creating and producing, we will find all the necessary
>> elements for retrieving the ways that this knowledge can be activated in
>> nowadays.
>>>>
>>>> ?snip?
>>>>
>>>> First, there have been different accounts of the divisions of knowledge
>> domains over the centuries. There has never been a time anywhere in which
>> the several kinds of knowledge were considered whole and indivisible. The
>> divisions of knowledge domains that dominated classical Greece and the
>> post-Alexandrian Hellenic world did not include the practical arts or
>> professions in the domains of philosophy. Things changed again in the
>> medieval university, but even there, the trivium and quadrivium did not
>> include the fine or applied arts ? while the lower faculty of philosophy
>> was different to the higher faculties of medicine, law and theology.
>> Medicine itself distinguished between the medical theory taught at
>> university and the work of barber-surgeons who actually worked on patients.
>>>>
>>>> Second, the changes that took place in the 15th century did not come
>> about because of any shift in economic models. What happened was the
>> scientists began to look at the world. 15th-century physics was a branch of
>> natural philosophy. 15th-century physics accepted much of Aristotle?s
>> often-mistaken account translated through the lens of Ptolemy. The
>> Copernican model that arrived in the 16th century, followed by the work of
>> Galileo, Kepler, and Newton meant a different world. This was not a
>> ?fragmentation? of some unified knowledge that could be ?restored.? New
>> facts made it impossible to think of the world in a fuzzy way governed by
>> Aristotelian physics and a version of astrophysics dominated by Biblical
>> theology. Literalist theologians argue that the sun stood still in Joshua
>> 10. If the Biblical account is true, it cannot be true that the earth
>> revolves around the sun. Talking about this as ?holistic? knowledge doesn?t
>> make sense.
>>>>
>>>> Third, there is significantly more to know than there was to know in
>> the 15th century. In the 15th century, we had fewer books than the number
>> of volumes held in the Library of Alexandria when Callimachus organized the
>> great library catalogue known as the Pinakes. Today, we have far more.
>> Since the time of Gutenberg?s printing press, there have been millions of
>> books published. While I cannot track the numbers from Shanghai, I gather
>> that Google?s estimate of the world?s books runs to nearly 129,000,000
>> volumes not counting the same volume more than once. If you add journal
>> articles and other material, we?re talking about an amount of information
>> that makes a single knowledge domain impossible.
>>>>
>>>> Fourth, even within recognized disciplines, it is no longer possible
>> for anyone in any field to cover more than a tiny fraction of what there is
>> to know. When Henri Poincar? died in 1912, he was probably the last human
>> being to know and understand the complete mathematical corpus of the time
>> in which he lived. As for physics or even philosophy, the notion is
>> incredible.
>>>>
>>>> If my view is pessimistic, I?d be curious to know two things.
>>>>
>>>> First, what evidence is there for an era of unified knowledge? It seems
>> to me that a great deal of this idea is an optimistic notion based on an
>> inadequate understanding of the world by people who were simply wrong about
>> how much they knew, and just as wrong about how much of what they knew was
>> incorrect.
>>>>
>>>> Second, just how one can ?restore? this era in a world where there is
>> simply too much to know. I?m not asking how we can restore the illusion of
>> unified knowledge. Too me, that?s like the Bible museum diorama in which
>> you can see human beings living side by side with dinosaurs, rather like a
>> new version of the Flintstone cartoon series. I?m asking for a credible
>> account of how it is possible for anyone to restore an era of unified
>> knowledge in a world where nearly no one can credibly manage to know what
>> there is, even in their own field.
>>>>
>>>> It is one thing to argue in favor of interdisciplinary research. It is
>> another to do so without accounting for what we do not know, and cannot
>> know.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Ken Friedman
>>>>
>>>> Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | ?? She Ji. The
>>>> Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji
>>>> University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL:
>>>> http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economi
>>>> cs-and-innovation/
>>>>
>>>> Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and
>>>> Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University
>>>> Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne
>>>> University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia
>>>>
>>>> Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia
>>>> http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I
>>>> http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn
>>>>
>>>> --
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