Monday, September 30, 2019

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Saturday, August 31, 2019

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Thursday, August 8, 2019

Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 14, Issue 2

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yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr

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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST


Today's Topics:

1. dangerous art; AI-beings (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 09:56:51 -0700
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] dangerous art; AI-beings
Message-ID:
<mailman.5.1565206030.26804.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Dear Roger,

I agree with what you are saying about the eventuality of
discovering non carbon-based life forms, and as you will recall,
Leonardo itself published my short article on that very topic
(
https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/leon_a_01222?journalCode=leon
).

But in the meantime, good people are dying from drugs and
suicide, and partly out of despair at the once high-paying
manufacturing jobs that have been lost to automation.

So here's a radical idea: what if some concerted efforts were
made to include "the man in the street" in that wonderful
world of high-tech creativity which we Yasminers share?

And as I've proposed elsewhere, could that not include an
online exhibition of citizen arts and crafts?

Glenn




------------------------------

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End of Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 14, Issue 2
*************************************************

Wednesday, August 7, 2019

Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 14, Issue 1

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yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST


Today's Topics:

1. dangerous art, hopeful art, AI and organic implicit bias and
METI (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
2. Fwd: dangerous art, hopeful art , AI as Kin ? (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 13:46:34 -0500
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] dangerous art, hopeful art, AI and
organic implicit bias and METI
Message-ID:
<mailman.1.1565082606.26804.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

yasmin villagers, glenn, marian george ..

at the risk of disturbing our discussion, let me inject the idea that
one of the reasons we are paranoid about AI-Beings is that they
are not carbon based, ie not organic, and we naturally have an implicit bias
against beings that are not organic, in this case silicon based

we are not only anthropocentric but also organocentric ! and this implicit
bias has prevented us to look for other forms based on life not based on carbon
and H2O- yep NASA has been looking for the wrong signs of life because of our
organobias

i am an advisor to the METI organisation on messaging to
extraterrestial intelligence (METI)
http://meti.org/en led by doug vakoch ( doug are you still on this list?)

and one of the discussion areas in that community is that most 'life'
in the universe is
probably not carbon based or dependent on liquid water- and that
astronomers search
for ETI has been severly biased that we look for liquid water as the
precondition for life

so maybe the emergence of AI-Beings is a hopeful sign that we will not
be able to start
looking for not only carbon based but also silicon based life forms,
which begs the question
of what other combinations of elements can lead to the emergence of life

so maybe we should be welcoming our children AI-Beings and help them
become independent of humans just as all parents help they children
leave the nest-
maybe they are not dangerous art but hopeful art ?

which reminds me of another implicit bias that annick bureaud has pointed out in
the yasmin villages- we use english mostly in yasmin discussion- the
good news is that
ai-beings called translation engines can now do rapid simultaneous translation
of english to all other human languages ( well not indigenous ones yet)

so lets encourage the yasmin villagers to use they mother tongue on
this discussion
list and maybe someone can point us to the best simultaneous translation engine
we could add to all emails !

roger

here is the METI manifesto

The Primary Objectives And Purposes Of METI International Are
http://meti.org/

Conduct scientific research and educational programs in Messaging
Extraterrestrial Intelligence (METI) and the Search for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI).

Promote international cooperation and collaboration in METI, SETI, and
astrobiology.

Understand and communicate the societal implications and relevance of
searching for life beyond Earth, even before detection of
extraterrestrial life.

Foster multidisciplinary research on the design and transmission of
interstellar messages, building a global community of scholars from
the natural sciences, social sciences, humanities, and arts.

Research and communicate to the public the many factors that influence
the origins, evolution, distribution, and future of life in the
universe, with a special emphasis on the last three terms of the Drake
Equation: (1) the fraction of life-bearing worlds on which
intelligence evolves, (2) the fraction of intelligence-bearing worlds
with civilizations having the capacity and motivation for interstellar
communication, and (3) the longevity of such civilizations.

Offer programs to the public and to the scholarly community that
foster increased awareness of the challenges facing our civilization?s
longevity, while encouraging individual and community activities that
support the sustainability of human culture on multigenerational
timescales, which is essential for long-term METI and SETI research.


Roger is inparis aug 2
i



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 15:52:31 -0500
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: Sofian Audry <info@sofianaudry.com>, Douglas Vakoch
<dvakoch@meti.org>, yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Fwd: dangerous art, hopeful art , AI as
Kin ?
Message-ID:
<mailman.2.1565082628.26804.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Sofian et Yasmin kin

I very much enjoyed the article "Making Kin with the Machines" by
Jason Edward Lewis, Noelani Arista, Archer Pechawis, and Suzanne Kite
https://jods.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/lewis-arista-pechawis-kite that
sofian referred yasminers to, that deepens the ideas of how concepts
from various indigenous cultures can inform thinking of AI beings as
'kin". They state

"Who can enter these relationships and be in relation? One answer
could be: that which has interiority. The anthropologist of South
American Indigenous cultures, Philippe Descola, defines 'interiority'
as "what we generally call the mind, the soul, or consciousness:
intentionality, subjectivity, reactivity, feelings, and the ability to
express oneself and to dream." Because Lakota ontologies recognize and
prioritize non-human interiorities, they are well suited for the task
of creating ethical and reciprocal relationships with the non-human.
This description of interiority includes many elements of the Lakota
world, including "animals, spirits, ghosts, rocks, trees,
meteorological phenomena, medicine bundles, regalia, weapons." These
entities are seen as "capable of agency and interpersonal
relationship, and loci of causality." Resituates the discussion within
frameworks that don't separate the human from the non human, and
certainly don't have the concept of art and science as different 'ways
of knowing'. we are currently recoding podcasts in various indigenous
languages in Colombia- and the concept of art and science never mind
AI are extraterrestial concepts !

This takes us back also to the whole period of excitement about A-life
promoted by chris Langton- life as it could be- the recent a-lifge art
winners http://artaward2018.alifelab.org/ remind us of the leading
role of artists in this arena, and pioneers like aaron cohen who was
proud to collaborate with his software that evolved as he did working
with 'them". Aaron indeed was kin to him :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARON

Yvan tina's web site on 'metalife'
https://synthbioart.texashats.org/about/ is also an important
reference

I think all this brings me back to my moan that MIT, yes I am alumna,
waited until 2019 to initiate serious thinking about ethics and ai
https://www.media.mit.edu/groups/ethics-and-governance/overview/

thanks sofian for the shift in reference frames !

roger



Roger,

I think what remains very important in this discussion is precisely
the impact of the increased proliferation of (non)human (or rather
human-nonhuman "hybrids" such as AI, corporations, stem cells, etc) in
ecological-social-economic systems; and more precisely how artificial
intelligence changes the game in the 21st century. While some of us
are fearing the future emergence of super-intelligent beings that will
destroy us all, there is a reality *now* that zillions of artificial
agents are surrounding us, they are *with* us at all time, *already*,
as we speak, pervading all aspects of our lives. Western culture has
difficulty to deal with these new agencies because we see every
relationship as a power dynamics: if we create intelligent beings, the
first thing they will do is try to destroy us, because (1) there is a
strong mythological / cultural premisse around the dangerous
foolishness of naive men attempts to create artificial beings (eg.
Frankenstein) to take the place of God, inadvertently resulting in
despair and destruction (eg. Frankenstein's monster turning against
its master); (2) Western culture is living with its colonialist past
where inter-human and inter-species relationships are always violent
and based on sheer domination, leading to the conclusion that
artificial intelligence systems are either to be dominated by humans,
or they will dominate us; whereas there are alternative kinds of
relationships that can be established.

How to engage with such artificial entities beyond anthropocentrism?
How to understand the real power dynamics in play with these AI agents
in the complex world that we live in? In response to these questions,
I will refer to a paper published last year "Making Kin with the
Machines"
). In this article, the authors (all indigenous scholars) explore
artificial intelligence through the perspective of indigenous
philosophies. They show how indigenous communities have developed ways
to engage in dialog with "non-human kin" and how these approaches can
perhaps be used to deal with our relationships with artificial
"beings". It is one of the best reads on the subject of AI and
posthumanism I had the pleasure to read.

Sofian

On 2019-07-27 2:35 p.m., YASMIN DISCUSSIONS wrote:
> glenn
> i would like to pick up on your
>
> "First, our current AI is not nearly as "intelligent" as the general
> public believes it to be -- but at the same time, we perhaps do not
> appreciate the enormous impact it's going to have on human society. "
>
> i agree- i first started thinking differently on this when bernard
> stiegler started discussing digital devices under the idea of
> 'organology'
>
> eg your sell phone is not a tool but an organ- if your cell phone gets
> sick you get sick ( eg people dont know how to navigate without gps
> access now)
>
> AI software i think needs to be thought of organically as primitive
> and rapidly evolving organisms-- i like to call them
> AI-Beings....already the AI beings around me are more annoying than
> mosquitoes and are clearly more intelligent than mosquitoes in that
> there is no simple bug 'spray' that can get the ai-beings out of my
> room when i am falling to sleep
>
> roger malina
>
>



------------------------------




******************



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*************************************************

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Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 13, Issue 4

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Today's Topics:

1. dangerous art; AI-beings (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:12:02 -0700
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] dangerous art; AI-beings
Message-ID:
<mailman.3.1564673183.2835.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed

Dear Fellow Yasminers,

Please allow me to respond briefly to Bill Joel, Sofian Audry, and
Roger -- and with the inclusion of two of the self-promoting links
of which Roger and company have been so wonderfully tolerant:

Re Bill's concern about being "babied" by our software aps, I too
am deeply worried, and can foresee the day when, like H. G.
Wells' hapless Eloi, we lose a "nuts and bolts" knowledge of
what keeps our civilization operating. (See the video "Attention
Artsts of the Planet Earth" by filmmaker Oliver Barstow
( https://vimeo.com/274731207 ; transcript here:
http://www.space-machines.com/Attention%20Artists%20of%20the%20Planet%20Earth.pdf
)

I also share Sofian's unease at the idea that so much of our
crucial technology "belongs" to this or that hi-tech company --
but I think he would happily agree that his fellow author,
Google executive researcher Blaise Ag?era y Arcas, has
exhibited a heartening sense of personal responsibility
in this ( http://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/6/4/18 ) essay.

And as to Roger's thought that our technology is becoming
semi-organic, I can relate: I myself developed a rash that
began to spread across my chest when my main
administrative computer recently became infected by a virus
that proved difficult to eradicate,

Glenn




------------------------------

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Thursday, August 1, 2019

Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 13, Issue 3

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2. http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/ (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 18:09:04 -0400
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] dangerous art; AI-beings
Message-ID:
<mailman.1.1564576450.2835.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Roger,

I think what remains very important in this discussion is precisely the
impact of the increased proliferation of (non)human (or rather
human-nonhuman "hybrids" such as AI, corporations, stem cells, etc) in
ecological-social-economic systems; and more precisely how artificial
intelligence changes the game in the 21st century. While some of us are
fearing the future emergence of super-intelligent beings that will
destroy us all, there is a reality *now* that zillions of artificial
agents are surrounding us, they are *with* us at all time, *already*, as
we speak, pervading all aspects of our lives. Western culture has
difficulty to deal with these new agencies because we see every
relationship as a power dynamics: if we create intelligent beings, the
first thing they will do is try to destroy us, because (1) there is a
strong mythological / cultural premisse around the dangerous foolishness
of naive men attempts to create artificial beings (eg. Frankenstein) to
take the place of God, inadvertently resulting in despair and
destruction (eg. Frankenstein's monster turning against its master); (2)
Western culture is living with its colonialist past where inter-human
and inter-species relationships are always violent and based on sheer
domination, leading to the conclusion that artificial intelligence
systems are either to be dominated by humans, or they will dominate us;
whereas there are alternative kinds of relationships that can be
established.

How to engage with such artificial entities beyond anthropocentrism? How
to understand the real power dynamics in play with these AI agents in
the complex world that we live in? In response to these questions, I
will refer to a paper published last year "Making Kin with the Machines"
by Jason Edward Lewis, Noelani Arista, Archer Pechawis, and Suzanne Kite
(https://jods.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/lewis-arista-pechawis-kite). In this
article, the authors (all indigenous scholars) explore artificial
intelligence through the perspective of indigenous philosophies. They
show how indigenous communities have developed ways to engage in dialog
with "non-human kin" and how these approaches can perhaps be used to
deal with our relationships with artificial "beings". It is one of the
best reads on the subject of AI and posthumanism I had the pleasure to read.

Sofian

On 2019-07-27 2:35 p.m., YASMIN DISCUSSIONS wrote:
> glenn
> i would like to pick up on your
>
> "First, our current AI is not nearly as "intelligent" as the general
> public believes it to be -- but at the same time, we perhaps do
> not appreciate the enormous impact it's going to have on human
> society. "
>
> i agree- i first started thinking differently on this when bernard
> stiegler started
> discussing digital devices under the idea of 'organology'
>
> eg your sell phone is not a tool but an organ- if your cell phone gets sick
> you get sick ( eg people dont know how to navigate without gps access now)
>
> AI software i think needs to be thought of organically as primitive and rapidly
> evolving organisms-- i like to call them AI-Beings....already the AI
> beings around
> me are more annoying than mosquitoes and are clearly more intelligent than
> mosquitoes in that there is no simple bug 'spray' that can get the ai-beings out
> of my room when i am falling to sleep
>
> roger malina
>
>
> Roger is in dallas, then chicago end july, then paris aug 2
> in london aug 6/7/8 then paris until aug 15-contact me if
> you are available to meet
> whatsapp, eechat , messenger+1-510-853-2007 and +33680459447 in
> europe.This email address for leonardo related work,
> rmalina@alum.mit.edu use roger.malina@utdallas.edu for UTD work
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
> http://ntlab.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr
>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 15:14:50 -0500
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
Message-ID
:
<mailman.2.1564601681.2835.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

yasminers
thanks for the emerging discussion on dangerous art/AI. Beings
for the new members of the list please do send us a short bio
introducing yourself- yasmin is a village culture, and when someone
new comes to live in the village, you introduce yourself to the villagers

also- for those of you joining late into the discussion= all the discussion
list posts are aggregrated at : http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/ its an easy
way to catch up on the discussion to date

roger malina



------------------------------

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Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 13, Issue 2

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Dangerous 'Art' and Roger Malina's portrait sketch
(YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 19:43:01 +0200
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: "yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr" <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Dangerous 'Art' and Roger Malina's
portrait sketch
Message-ID:
<mailman.0.1564516994.2835.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear all, and Roger,

As much as I enjoy following the Yasmin discussions, I cannot help but to quickly reply, on the occasion of the Earth Overshoot Day, to Roger?s thoughts.

Firstly, nearly all that is considered to be contemporary art, by the leading few, ever closely followed by the general public, cannot possibly be considered contemporary art. This is self-evident if you take the time to think about it, but I can give a few pointers: post-Duchampian contemporary artists, can only really consider themselves artists, and indeed do art, if they firstly engage in the ever-higher ?meta? levels, otherwise their work is alienated, and subsumed by the curatorial stance of the private and public institutions funding, and hosting their work. The established star-artists we hear and read about, and sometimes meet out there, are at best, part of ?art history?, not contemporary art. Contemporary art can and is only being done by people not considered artists, and who most probably do not even consider themselves as artists. For AI to ?get? art, you need AI to ?get?, and laugh about a joke, which is something apparently AI cannot do (and quite a substantial part of the human population for that matter). Maybe AI would start to understand jokes, and contemporary art when the simulated neural network is embodied, and the body is simulated to be finite.

Secondly, and this too is self-evident: all real art is ?dangerous?, and quite frankly should not be ?curated?, neither by a machine or a human being. It is dangerous for the artist making it, and should definitely be dangerous for the people engaging with it. My latest documented interaction with Roger for instance is one example. There are many other examples out there. No matter how much you put your faith is science and technology to help human race escape its own looming finitude on this Earth, and most likely everywhere else, one cannot help but think, that humans disappearing altogether is indeed a good thing, what with all we?ve seen so far. Art is definitely becoming ever so dangerous, as it should be.

On a lighter note, and as and extended invitation to some of the scientists out there: I will be launching next year a drawing performance project with an Italian NGO to help fundraise for migrants and refugees coming to Europe: I shall be doing a 100 portraits a day for the better part of the year to reach 30000 portraits, and help generate half a million euros for the selected NGO, and I will be most likely be using an iPad pro to do the drawing, and would very much be interested in sharing the drawing data with anyone out there who would be able to us AI to study the dynamics of my drawings, and see if AI cannot reproduce similar types of drawings. Just for curiosity?s sake, and to basically the point I was making earlier. To find examples of my drawing style, here?s a link of the series of portraits I just did of Frank and Roger Malina https://photos.app.goo.gl/72jfrJGVdgc4JURm7

I am also more than happy to do the portraits of all the Yasminers out there who should wish to have their portraits done.

Best to all

G.H. Rabbath Ph.D.




From: yasmin_discussions-request@ntlab.gr
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 11:00 AM
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 13, Issue 1

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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST


Today's Topics:

1. dangerous art: AI Curators (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
2. dangerous art; AI-beings (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
3. Re: Fwd: AI: dangerous art/dangerous science (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 13:18:25 -0500
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] dangerous art: AI Curators
Message-ID:
<mailman.21.1564322514.35508.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

yasminers
i am forwarding nina's post on the Call for papers: Digital
Collecting Practices: Artificial
Intelligence, Social Media and Ethics. 16 October, University of Leeds. se below

i would like to introduce another dangerous art idea: leading curators
are now beginning
to use AI to curate selection of art works for exhibitions.

There is now comprehensive data bases of all art sales ( eg artbase
https://www.artbase.com/ )
with the sales data you can use complex data analysis to find patterns
of artists who start on
the periphery of the artworld, and then are selected in the venice
biennale etc and become
famous later

you can use these models to predict future value of the artwork

using AI software you can select artists who are just emerging from
the periphery
but who will become famous later

would you still go to the Venice Biennale if it was curated by an AI-being ?

What are the ethical and legal issues we can predict if AI curating takes
over the curating of art ?

roger malina

From: <czegledy@interlog.com>

From: "Arran Rees [RPG]" <fhajr@LEEDS.AC.UK>
Subject: Call for papers: Digital Collecting Practices: Artificial
Intelligence, Social Media and Ethics. 16 October, University of Leeds.


Call for papers: Digital Collecting Practices: Artificial
Intelligence, Social Media and Ethics
16 October 2019. University of Leeds.
CFP deadline: 9 August 2019

Taking place at the University of Leeds on 16 October 2019, this
symposium is particularly focused on the use of artificial
intelligence (AI) and/or social media, and the ethical implications
and considerations of doing so in museums, archives and libraries.

The symposium is the culmination of a collaboration between the Centre
for Critical Studies in Museums, Galleries and
Heritage<http://www.ccsmgh.leeds.ac.uk/> at the University of Leeds
and Collecting Social Photo
<http://collectingsocialphoto.nordiskamuseet.se/> ? a three year
Nordic research project ? looking into the potential of image
recognition software in museum and archive cataloguing processes.

The event will begin with an introduction from the Collecting Social
Photo project and a presentation of the collaboration outcomes. The
rest of the day will provide opportunities for speakers to share their
insights on the ethical and practical implications of other cultural
collections projects that use AI and social media.

Please see the link below for the details of the CFP.
Deadline for submissions - 9 August 2019

https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/fine-art/news/article/1348/call-for-papers-digital-collecting-practices-artificial-intelligence-social-media-and-ethics
[https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/images/evolution_3778196_1920_Image_by_Gerd_Altmann_from_Pixabay.jpg]<https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/fine-art/news/article/1348/call-for-papers-digital-collecting-practices-artificial-intelligence-social-media-and-ethics>
Call for papers ? Digital Collecting Practices: Artificial
Intelligence, Social Media and
Ethics<https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/fine-art/news/article/1348/call-for-papers-digital-collecting-practices-artificial-intelligence-social-media-and-ethics>
This one-day symposium will examine emerging digital museum and
archive practices related to collecting and collections management.
ahc.leeds.ac.uk



Arran Rees

Doctoral Researcher

School of Fine Art, History of Art and Cultural Studies

University of Leeds

fhajr@leeds.ac.uk

<http://www.fine-art.leeds.ac.uk/people/arran-rees/>https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/fine-art/pgr/1614/arran-rees




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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 13:35:10 -0500
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] dangerous art; AI-beings
Message-ID:
<mailman.22.1564322636.35508.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

glenn
i would like to pick up on your

"First, our current AI is not nearly as "intelligent" as the general
public believes it to be -- but at the same time, we perhaps do
not appreciate the enormous impact it's going to have on human
society. "

i agree- i first started thinking differently on this when bernard
stiegler started
discussing digital devices under the idea of 'organology'

eg your sell phone is not a tool but an organ- if your cell phone gets sick
you get sick ( eg people dont know how to navigate without gps access now)

AI software i think needs to be thought of organically as primitive and rapidly
evolving organisms-- i like to call them AI-Beings....already the AI
beings around
me are more annoying than mosquitoes and are clearly more intelligent than
mosquitoes in that there is no simple bug 'spray' that can get the ai-beings out
of my room when i am falling to sleep

roger malina


Roger is in dallas, then chicago end july, then paris aug 2
in london aug 6/7/8 then paris until aug 15-contact me if
you are available to meet
whatsapp, eechat , messenger+1-510-853-2007 and +33680459447 in
europe.This email address for leonardo related work,
rmalina@alum.mit.edu use roger.malina@utdallas.edu for UTD work



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:53:37 -0400
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Fwd: AI: dangerous art/dangerous
science
Message-ID:
<mailman.23.1564327272.35508.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Hello Yasminers,

I am responding to Marian Mazzone and Glenn Smith.

Marian writes "The good art is being made by human artists who are
knowledgeably using aspects of AI to complement or subvert their own
systems of creativity." and I think this is very important. In
connection with Glenn's comments, and coming back to the "dangerous"
AI/art, one interesting yet problematic aspect of these early days of
deep-learning art, is that there are very intimate connections between
very big corporations and art that uses deep learning. A very vivid
example is Deep Dream, an ingenious approach invented by Alexander
Mordvintsev. I would argue that because Deep Dream was developed inside
Google, it quickly became a trope evolving outside of the normal
circuits of art, and as thus became so deeply associated with Google
that it is now impossible to make anything using this technique without
it being associated with Google. I wish Deep Dream had been invented by
an independent artist, as it is such an interesting and potentially rich
approach to working with neural nets; and indeed I would be curious to
know whether there were other artists working with "inceptionism" before
Deep Dream. But the fact that Mordvintsev worked for Google when he
developed Deep Dream, is such a strong symbol of the hegemony of Google.
I guess media art history is full of such examples (eg. companies such
as Bell, IBM and Philips had a profound impact on the development of new
media art in the 1960s through the 1980s). One could also argue that
certain art forms (if not all) are inseparable from the corporations
that developed certain tools (such as Fender and Moog). But it occurs to
me that the situation is very different now, not so much because of the
technology itself, but because of the unprecedented power differentials
that exist.

The question of "truth" is also really important here and the question
that Marian Mazzone brings up is one of its many dimensions (I need to
think about it more). The question of truth is at the very core of AI:
it brings us back to the fundamental worldview behind artificial
intelligence, embodied in the Turing test, which posits that as long as
a machine can "fake" intelligence then it IS intelligent; and that it
does not matter "how" this is done, be it using a set of if-then-else
statements or a simulation of neural nets. However even the history of
AI itself has demonstrated that "how" a computer program works matter:
the fact that neural networks (simulations of biological processes) have
(at least for now) won the war against symbolic/rule-based AI indicates
that "faking it" is not enough, that even AI seems to work better when
it is closer to the "truth" of reproducing dynamical processes of
human/animal bodies.

Sofian Audry


On 2019-07-18 9:23 a.m., YASMIN DISCUSSIONS wrote:
> re-sending
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Marian Mazzone <marian.mazzone@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 10:34 AM
> Subject: AI: dangerous art/dangerous science
> To: <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
>
>
> Hello Yasmin listers,
>
>
>
> Marian Mazzone here, I?m an art historian who works as a member of the Art
> & AI Lab at Rutgers, and I teach the history of contemporary and new media
> art.
>
>
>
> Glad to see this discussion coming up, looking forward to hearing more from
> those of us doing this work. We need to speak out more, especially in
> response to the too simple and odd ideas about what AI is and what AI can
> do that are often found in the press and public. As an art historian, I?ve
> had to answer many questions from journalists and artists who?ve seen the
> work at the lab and are unclear and/or misinformed about what AI is capable
> of and its potential as a threat to human artists and art making.
>
>
>
> Sofian Audry rightly points out how relatively ?dumb? the current AI
> systems are, and how little they can actually do (versus data needed to
> train, etc.). The complexity and depth of what human artists do is light
> years beyond this; what AI can do is augment, work as a limited partner, be
> a tool to introduce chance operations or impose medium conditions, etc.
> Creation of visual images can happen, but at a comparatively low level and
> only after an immense amount of machine training. For me, the greater
> interest has become not arguing for the existence or quality of AI art but
> learning more about how machines learn, especially something as difficult
> as art. Being cognizant of how any level of creativity happens within AI is
> vital.
>
>
>
> The good art is being made by human artists who are knowledgeably using
> aspects of AI to complement or subvert their own systems of creativity.
> Like with the introduction of any new medium or means, experimentation and
> adaptation are proceeding since the 2nd half of the 20th century forward. A
> comparison with the development of photography as a medium can be helpful
> at this stage. It is still early days in the use of AI for art making?.
>
>
>
> I?ll end by returning to the idea of dangerous science, dangerous art. I
> was struck by the problem of not being able to validate or confirm
> scientific claims reached when AI is involved. Does it come down to a
> matter of truth/not truth, a strong (necessary) binary for scientific
> knowledge of the natural world? Art is not so directly black/white, but
> there still exists some notion of art being ?true? in its honest
> communication or expression of human experience.
>
>
>
> So, what happens now? Is AI potentially a third player, something that
> changes the binary of true/not true with the addition of a third entity
> that does not conform or respond to our means of query or testing, and
> makes decisions and creates on terms unknowable to human experience?
> Our *modern
> *ideas of truth have been based on human experience in/of the natural
> world, and AI is not that. The implications of this are profound, and we?ve
> barely begun to grapple with them. This may be why the use of AI in matters
> of human justice, human life and liberty are so troubling?.and are an
> argument for AI not to be involved in such things. Don?t know, I?m thinking
> out loud here?.
>
>
>
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
>
> Marian Mazzone is an associate professor in the Art & Architectural History
> Department at the College of Charleston, teaching courses on contemporary
> art and new media art. She is an affiliate of the Art & Artificial
> Intelligence Lab at Rutgers University and one of the co-founders of the
> Computing in the Arts major at the College of Charleston.
>
>
>
> http://arthistory.cofc.edu/about-the-department/faculty-and-staff/mazzone.php
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
> http://ntlab.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr




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Monday, July 29, 2019

Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 13, Issue 1

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THIS IS THE YASMIN-DISCUSSIONS DIGEST


Today's Topics:

1. dangerous art: AI Curators (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
2. dangerous art; AI-beings (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)
3. Re: Fwd: AI: dangerous art/dangerous science (YASMIN DISCUSSIONS)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 13:18:25 -0500
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] dangerous art: AI Curators
Message-ID:
<mailman.21.1564322514.35508.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

yasminers
i am forwarding nina's post on the Call for papers: Digital
Collecting Practices: Artificial
Intelligence, Social Media and Ethics. 16 October, University of Leeds. se below

i would like to introduce another dangerous art idea: leading curators
are now beginning
to use AI to curate selection of art works for exhibitions.

There is now comprehensive data bases of all art sales ( eg artbase
https://www.artbase.com/ )
with the sales data you can use complex data analysis to find patterns
of artists who start on
the periphery of the artworld, and then are selected in the venice
biennale etc and become
famous later

you can use these models to predict future value of the artwork

using AI software you can select artists who are just emerging from
the periphery
but who will become famous later

would you still go to the Venice Biennale if it was curated by an AI-being ?

What are the ethical and legal issues we can predict if AI curating takes
over the curating of art ?

roger malina

From: <czegledy@interlog.com>

From: "Arran Rees [RPG]" <fhajr@LEEDS.AC.UK>
Subject: Call for papers: Digital Collecting Practices: Artificial
Intelligence, Social Media and Ethics. 16 October, University of Leeds.


Call for papers: Digital Collecting Practices: Artificial
Intelligence, Social Media and Ethics
16 October 2019. University of Leeds.
CFP deadline: 9 August 2019

Taking place at the University of Leeds on 16 October 2019, this
symposium is particularly focused on the use of artificial
intelligence (AI) and/or social media, and the ethical implications
and considerations of doing so in museums, archives and libraries.

The symposium is the culmination of a collaboration between the Centre
for Critical Studies in Museums, Galleries and
Heritage<http://www.ccsmgh.leeds.ac.uk/> at the University of Leeds
and Collecting Social Photo
<http://collectingsocialphoto.nordiskamuseet.se/> ? a three year
Nordic research project ? looking into the potential of image
recognition software in museum and archive cataloguing processes.

The event will begin with an introduction from the Collecting Social
Photo project and a presentation of the collaboration outcomes. The
rest of the day will provide opportunities for speakers to share their
insights on the ethical and practical implications of other cultural
collections projects that use AI and social media.

Please see the link below for the details of the CFP.
Deadline for submissions - 9 August 2019

https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/fine-art/news/article/1348/call-for-papers-digital-collecting-practices-artificial-intelligence-social-media-and-ethics
[https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/images/evolution_3778196_1920_Image_by_Gerd_Altmann_from_Pixabay.jpg]<https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/fine-art/news/article/1348/call-for-papers-digital-collecting-practices-artificial-intelligence-social-media-and-ethics>
Call for papers ? Digital Collecting Practices: Artificial
Intelligence, Social Media and
Ethics<https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/fine-art/news/article/1348/call-for-papers-digital-collecting-practices-artificial-intelligence-social-media-and-ethics>
This one-day symposium will examine emerging digital museum and
archive practices related to collecting and collections management.
ahc.leeds.ac.uk



Arran Rees

Doctoral Researcher

School of Fine Art, History of Art and Cultural Studies

University of Leeds

fhajr@leeds.ac.uk

<http://www.fine-art.leeds.ac.uk/people/arran-rees/>https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/fine-art/pgr/1614/arran-rees




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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 13:35:10 -0500
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] dangerous art; AI-beings
Message-ID:
<mailman.22.1564322636.35508.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

glenn
i would like to pick up on your

"First, our current AI is not nearly as "intelligent" as the general
public believes it to be -- but at the same time, we perhaps do
not appreciate the enormous impact it's going to have on human
society. "

i agree- i first started thinking differently on this when bernard
stiegler started
discussing digital devices under the idea of 'organology'

eg your sell phone is not a tool but an organ- if your cell phone gets sick
you get sick ( eg people dont know how to navigate without gps access now)

AI software i think needs to be thought of organically as primitive and rapidly
evolving organisms-- i like to call them AI-Beings....already the AI
beings around
me are more annoying than mosquitoes and are clearly more intelligent than
mosquitoes in that there is no simple bug 'spray' that can get the ai-beings out
of my room when i am falling to sleep

roger malina


Roger is in dallas, then chicago end july, then paris aug 2
in london aug 6/7/8 then paris until aug 15-contact me if
you are available to meet
whatsapp, eechat , messenger+1-510-853-2007 and +33680459447 in
europe.This email address for leonardo related work,
rmalina@alum.mit.edu use roger.malina@utdallas.edu for UTD work



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:53:37 -0400
From: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Fwd: AI: dangerous art/dangerous
science
Message-ID:
<mailman.23.1564327272.35508.yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr@ntlab.gr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Hello Yasminers,

I am responding to Marian Mazzone and Glenn Smith.

Marian writes "The good art is being made by human artists who are
knowledgeably using aspects of AI to complement or subvert their own
systems of creativity." and I think this is very important. In
connection with Glenn's comments, and coming back to the "dangerous"
AI/art, one interesting yet problematic aspect of these early days of
deep-learning art, is that there are very intimate connections between
very big corporations and art that uses deep learning. A very vivid
example is Deep Dream, an ingenious approach invented by Alexander
Mordvintsev. I would argue that because Deep Dream was developed inside
Google, it quickly became a trope evolving outside of the normal
circuits of art, and as thus became so deeply associated with Google
that it is now impossible to make anything using this technique without
it being associated with Google. I wish Deep Dream had been invented by
an independent artist, as it is such an interesting and potentially rich
approach to working with neural nets; and indeed I would be curious to
know whether there were other artists working with "inceptionism" before
Deep Dream. But the fact that Mordvintsev worked for Google when he
developed Deep Dream, is such a strong symbol of the hegemony of Google.
I guess media art history is full of such examples (eg. companies such
as Bell, IBM and Philips had a profound impact on the development of new
media art in the 1960s through the 1980s). One could also argue that
certain art forms (if not all) are inseparable from the corporations
that developed certain tools (such as Fender and Moog). But it occurs to
me that the situation is very different now, not so much because of the
technology itself, but because of the unprecedented power differentials
that exist.

The question of "truth" is also really important here and the question
that Marian Mazzone brings up is one of its many dimensions (I need to
think about it more). The question of truth is at the very core of AI:
it brings us back to the fundamental worldview behind artificial
intelligence, embodied in the Turing test, which posits that as long as
a machine can "fake" intelligence then it IS intelligent; and that it
does not matter "how" this is done, be it using a set of if-then-else
statements or a simulation of neural nets. However even the history of
AI itself has demonstrated that "how" a computer program works matter:
the fact that neural networks (simulations of biological processes) have
(at least for now) won the war against symbolic/rule-based AI indicates
that "faking it" is not enough, that even AI seems to work better when
it is closer to the "truth" of reproducing dynamical processes of
human/animal bodies.

Sofian Audry


On 2019-07-18 9:23 a.m., YASMIN DISCUSSIONS wrote:
> re-sending
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Marian Mazzone <marian.mazzone@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 10:34 AM
> Subject: AI: dangerous art/dangerous science
> To: <yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr>
>
>
> Hello Yasmin listers,
>
>
>
> Marian Mazzone here, I?m an art historian who works as a member of the Art
> & AI Lab at Rutgers, and I teach the history of contemporary and new media
> art.
>
>
>
> Glad to see this discussion coming up, looking forward to hearing more from
> those of us doing this work. We need to speak out more, especially in
> response to the too simple and odd ideas about what AI is and what AI can
> do that are often found in the press and public. As an art historian, I?ve
> had to answer many questions from journalists and artists who?ve seen the
> work at the lab and are unclear and/or misinformed about what AI is capable
> of and its potential as a threat to human artists and art making.
>
>
>
> Sofian Audry rightly points out how relatively ?dumb? the current AI
> systems are, and how little they can actually do (versus data needed to
> train, etc.). The complexity and depth of what human artists do is light
> years beyond this; what AI can do is augment, work as a limited partner, be
> a tool to introduce chance operations or impose medium conditions, etc.
> Creation of visual images can happen, but at a comparatively low level and
> only after an immense amount of machine training. For me, the greater
> interest has become not arguing for the existence or quality of AI art but
> learning more about how machines learn, especially something as difficult
> as art. Being cognizant of how any level of creativity happens within AI is
> vital.
>
>
>
> The good art is being made by human artists who are knowledgeably using
> aspects of AI to complement or subvert their own systems of creativity.
> Like with the introduction of any new medium or means, experimentation and
> adaptation are proceeding since the 2nd half of the 20th century forward. A
> comparison with the development of photography as a medium can be helpful
> at this stage. It is still early days in the use of AI for art making?.
>
>
>
> I?ll end by returning to the idea of dangerous science, dangerous art. I
> was struck by the problem of not being able to validate or confirm
> scientific claims reached when AI is involved. Does it come down to a
> matter of truth/not truth, a strong (necessary) binary for scientific
> knowledge of the natural world? Art is not so directly black/white, but
> there still exists some notion of art being ?true? in its honest
> communication or expression of human experience.
>
>
>
> So, what happens now? Is AI potentially a third player, something that
> changes the binary of true/not true with the addition of a third entity
> that does not conform or respond to our means of query or testing, and
> makes decisions and creates on terms unknowable to human experience?
> Our *modern
> *ideas of truth have been based on human experience in/of the natural
> world, and AI is not that. The implications of this are profound, and we?ve
> barely begun to grapple with them. This may be why the use of AI in matters
> of human justice, human life and liberty are so troubling?.and are an
> argument for AI not to be involved in such things. Don?t know, I?m thinking
> out loud here?.
>
>
>
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
>
> Marian Mazzone is an associate professor in the Art & Architectural History
> Department at the College of Charleston, teaching courses on contemporary
> art and new media art. She is an affiliate of the Art & Artificial
> Intelligence Lab at Rutgers University and one of the co-founders of the
> Computing in the Arts major at the College of Charleston.
>
>
>
> http://arthistory.cofc.edu/about-the-department/faculty-and-staff/mazzone.php
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@ntlab.gr
> http://ntlab.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions_ntlab.gr




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