Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange. Artists and Scientists

Hello, Yasminers.

The recent comments on the differences between individual art in the modern studio tradition and art arising from communities reminded me of an intriguing article by Bengt af Klintberg, the Swedish folklorist and Fluxus artist.

In 1993, af Klintberg published an interesting article titled "Fluxus Games and Contemporary Folklore: on the Non-Individual Character of Fluxus Art" in the journal Konsthistorisk Tidskrift Vol. LXII, No. 2. The article is in English so anyone who find the topic interesting can read this.

You will find the article in the "teaching documents" section of my Academia page at URL:

https://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman

The article will remain available until Saturday, June 4.

Af Klintberg draws interesting parallels between activities arising in and from communities. Folklore, fables, stories, myths and tales — as well as games — are one such range of activities. Many kinds of art are another.

For those who are interest in learning more about af Klintberg and his work, I have also posted the full text of his 1967 booklet, The Cursive Scandinavian Slave. Originally published by the Something Else Press, it was reprinted by UbuWeb in the Ubu Classics series.

Warm wishes,

Ken

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | 设计 She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | Launching in 2015

Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia

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[Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange: yearning for a new art criticism ?

From: Joanna Griffin <jomagriff@gmail.com>

Dear all,

To add to the comments of Liliane Lijn and Chris Fremantle, I yearn for the intellect of Rosalind Krauss and Leo Steinberg to help contextualise what the activity of artists encountering science as laboratory, as scientist, as activity, history, dress-sense, soundscapes, cultures, etc.... tells us about more elusive shifts. What is made more visible? The articles by Krauss that I now read on microfiche from the 70s and 80s point to how artistic practices make visible more elusive shifts in conditions in the world in which we live. It is perhaps that refocus provided by artworks as catalysts that is missing in commentaries

In thinking (nostalgically) about the absence and role of the art critic, in 2002 the UK-based curator Claire Doherty wrote very perceptively about my work and it was incredibly useful for my own professional development, but in a sense it also modelled interpretation and the intellectual depth to which artists pitch when making work. I wonder if other artists embarked on PhDs, like myself, to do the job of articulating context, articulating the "frame of reference for understanding" that Chris Fremantle mentions is so valuable, specifically because of the absence otherwise of adequate written reflection. In particular an absence in the face of the practices considered in this list, and the need to think carefully about the shifts that artists have made (not to mention anthropologists) towards the critical interpretation of aspects of science and technology.

It seems a luxury now to have another person take the time to do such critical appraisals that provide as Chris Fremantle has written "the way the artist hears back." At the same time writing by artists takes new turns. But its also relevant to think about how artists with curators and art agencies have shifted audience inside their work, and the extent to which this is a pattern for artists responding to and engaging with science. I know this was something I did to provide access to an experience and to bring 'audiences' with me on the journey, so shifting to a more participative approach. That was one solution, anyhow, and the solutions keep changing! In terms of this discussion though, I can link the loss of the reflection of the art critic to a re-structuring of the mechanisms for reflection by 'persons-formerly-known-as-audience' on and through creative practice.

best wishes,

Joanna
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange - Science is not Art

Dear All

One additional little fact: The Guardian's daily circulation (for print
version) during April 2016 was just above 160,000. If you consider how
many of those readers might actually read an art review the number
decreases significantly. Moreoever, the Guardian's readership is likely
to be over 25 (perhaps even over 35) so middle-aged or above, or working
in institutions which would buy the paper for records - so a further
gap opens up between the mainstream journalists trying to do their job
by being a bit provocative and sceptical for their middleaged audiences
(who will remember C.P. Snow) and the increasingly younger audiences who
most probably will not. But they will know about CERN and particle
accelerators and even, if they get fully into Ikeda's work, feel it
phenomenologically!

B

On 2016-05-31 00:37, bronac@boundaryobject.org wrote:

> Dear Yasminers & Liliane
>
> Thanks very much for this response. I do agree with you about the regular entwining of visual art criticism in major newspapers with the gallery museum network. It is more likely that reasonably informed reviews about work such as Ikeda's would be found in magazines such as The Wire - not that I am complaining about The Guardian deciding to cover this particular work in the car park! I think there is another broader issue underlying this dialogue which is about evaluation and where in hybrid fields one should look for it and find it. Double blind peer review doesn't just apply to science of course but applies also throughout humanities research and practice-led arts research. It would falsify the whole situation of making and receiving art if somehow the value of the experience was measured by its repeatability. But a certain level of cohesive critical acceptance is often one way of assessing whether or not an artwork matters (in the long-term). That criticism is no longer
confined to journalistic gatekeepers but can spread virally through social media, word of mouth and niche commentary is a very good thing for activities that weren't designed to fit within established categories or indeed markets.
>
> B
>
> On 2016-05-30 16:00, Liliane Lijn wrote: Hi Roger, Bronac and all
>
> I have been reading your reactions to Jonathan Jones' negative review of Ryogi Ikeda's installation. I tried to see it in the Brewer street Carpark but it was very soon closed down due to overcrowding. I have been to CERN on a fascinating albeit brief visit and came away with more of an understanding of the hugeness of the endeavour. One of the great differences between science and art is that science, despite the usual individual striving for success, is on the whole a collaborative discipline. It is collaborative on an international scale, while art is on the whole rooted in the individual and up until very recently, a way of seeing the world through another's eyes.Proust described it as being similar to seeing the then unknown dark side of the moon. We have now seen that dark side and his metaphor may no longer be valid, in that art practice is slowly moving towards a more collaborative methodology, particularly in the field of art and science.
>
> I also came away from CERN feeling that cosmology and particle physics, now so entwined, is also deeply connected to ancient creation myths.
>
> I concur with Bronac's query regarding the absence of serious critical attention from major art journals and newspapers but wouldn't that also be because they are tied to the entire gallery museum network? That and an unwillingness to embark on research of their own sets the reviewers back in the comfortable past of art devoted to formal aesthetic pursuits or ironic commentaries on society. As Bronac writes, there is a whole world of younger more energetic minds who find this work of interest, who can and do interact with it. So many of them that the carpark had to be closed and I couldn't see the installation.
>
> Even more interesting is the possibility that scientists and artists may be able to feed each other, that collaborations between artists and scientists can become a meaningful two way process where both discover something new from their communication.
>
> all best
>
> Liliane
>
> Liliane Lijn
>
> 07770350633
> 02088095636 www.lilianelijn.com [1]
>
> On 29 May 2016, at 20:15, bronac@boundaryobject.org wrote:
> Hi Roger and all
>
> I missed it unfortunately - but I did hear great things about this event
> from curator/producers who understand this kind of work and there was a
> real buzz about the project in London when it was taking place.
>
> You can sample a bit of it and read other perspectices from more
> informed voices here:
>
> http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-films/watch-a-trailer-for-ryoji-ikedas-supersymmetry-installation-open-now-at-brewer-street-car-park/
>
> http://www.timeout.com/london/art/ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>
> https://iloveqc.org/ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry-at-brewer-street-carpark-london-review/
>
> I think broader questions are 'why do even high profile big budget
> art-science related works rarely get reviewed in mainstream press' or
> 'why do they receive such poor (as in poorly researched) reviews when
> this does happen'....which are difficult questions to
> answer------suspect Joost is right. One wouldn't look to The Guardian or
> its reviewers for an informed perspective on Ikeda and this kind of
> practice which comes from a root that would not be familiar to them. It
> is like they are being sent off to review a work without having any
> knowledge of the artist's professional trajectory up to this point so
> this doesn't get mentioned nor does any reference get made to the
> context within which the CERN residency took place (ie a whole history
> of such encounters). So the old chestnut of art and science and their
> mutual mis/understanding becomes the focus of this tired and trite
> commentary. Sadly while reviewers such as Jones might think they are
> being provocative in fact fewer and fewer people are listening
> ....certainly the audiences for this kind of work (which are enormous
> and increasingly youthful) have slipped well beyond the orbit of the
> newspaper's sphere of influence.
> Bronaċ
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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Links:
------
[1] http://www.lilianelijn.com/
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[Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange; walking a fine line between traitor and advocate possibly ?

Yasminers
Picking up a previous strand, scientist Craig Hilton answers the questions
On his career as a scientist involved in the arts- his self questioning
Ties in with our discussion about the status of art science in the art world
And the career advice for young hybrids

Roger malina

Craig Hilton

1- what is your background as a scientist? In the arts, design or humanities ?
Science:
PhD Biochemistry (genetics), cancer research, immunology
Otago University, Malaghan Institute of Medical Research Harvard Medical School, Dana Farber, University of Massachusetts
Art:
MFA, University of Auckland, Elam School of Fine Arts
Humanities:
Religious upbringing, Father -Minister of the church (protestant, Christian)

2- when and how did you become involved in a hybrid art/science practice?
I became interested in art through science. While sometimes science allows big questions, it mostly does not (for most scientists). Art is always enticing in that regard. I was also lucky enough to study at a university that mixed students of different disciplines and so had many friends across science and art. My long-term interest in photography (initially through mountaineering) allowed me to put together reasonable portfolio which (alongside my PhD) opened the door to an Arts Masters programme. My interests in photography has not waned but I no longer take photographs and my art practice is no longer media driven.

3- what have been the major obstacles to overcome?
Isolation. I have sort out other hybrid-type folk over the years. For me the key to the hybridity is to maintain genuine understanding of the art and the science / attempt genuine value across. Thus is not easy - I once commented in an interview - it is like being bisexual when nobody will sleep with you.
Despite the general agreement that we are beyond objects in art -ideas still struggle and art is often focused on the media and less the idea.

4- what have been the greatest opportunities/breakthroughs?
a. Acknowledgement of work by scientific and art communities (especially- The Immortalisation of Bily Apple -an ongoing project)
b. Attention of Science Communication community towards arts a means to initiate much-needed conversation. However, I am provoked by Oron Catts' informal comment made to a scientist colleague in response to the scientist requesting the work work in a certain way - We are not here to make you life easy . I entitled a talk to science communicators with this Catts quote...walking a fine line between traitor and advocate possibly.

5- what would you do differently, knowing then what you know now?
Not too much big picture-wise-this is by nature difficult. Lots of things when it comes to details.

6- any advices to someone who may want to walk in your footstep?
Like any art practice, the work needs to be informed. There needs to be more to it than an artist fiddling with the tools of science or a scientist presenting the images of science in an art context. Study for a while.

7. Add other questions and your responses you think are relevant
Does it matter?
I am convinced it does. The influence of science and technology remains largely uncontested by culture. What can happen will happen. Advances in molecular and cellular biology and the application of resulting technologies have vastly increased not just our understanding of the foundation and mechanisms of life but also our ability to adjust life according to our whim and needs. Artists have a unique opportunity to represent communities and engage science and technology, directly addressing the tension between society and the scientific community. Art can be an effective way of stimulating debate and engaging people with biotechnology and the ethical questions it raises.
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange - Science is not Art

Please excuse my sudden interuption but as a long time lurker of this
list I am often puzzled by its content and this time I really feel like
making a comment.

art an individual process?????????? there have been more artists
involved in collective processes across history than individual one. If
you look back in time most of the work attributed by our recent
individualisms to one artists are in fact done by several persons,
bruegel de jonge for example, and if you look more recent you only find
networks of people, situationists surrealists .... and more recently
F/Loss endeavors.

as for science as an international collective process I think to claim
that with a bare minimum equity lets first get rid of DRM (look at
sci-hub sad scandal)
http://www.wired.com/2016/04/stealing-publicly-funded-research-isnt-stealing/

heart

Natacha

On 30/05/2016 17:00, Liliane Lijn wrote:
> Hi Roger, Bronac and all
>
> I have been reading your reactions to Jonathan Jones' negative review of Ryogi Ikeda's installation. I tried to see it in the Brewer street Carpark but it was very soon closed down due to overcrowding. I have been to CERN on a fascinating albeit brief visit and came away with more of an understanding of the hugeness of the endeavour. One of the great differences between science and art is that science, despite the usual individual striving for success, is on the whole a collaborative discipline. It is collaborative on an international scale, while art is on the whole rooted in the individual and up until very recently, a way of seeing the world through another's eyes.Proust described it as being similar to seeing the then unknown dark side of the moon. We have now seen that dark side and his metaphor may no longer be valid, in that art practice is slowly moving towards a more collaborative methodology, particularly in the field of art and science.
>
> I also came away from CERN feeling that cosmology and particle physics, now so entwined, is also deeply connected to ancient creation myths.
>
> I concur with Bronac's query regarding the absence of serious critical attention from major art journals and newspapers but wouldn't that also be because they are tied to the entire gallery museum network? That and an unwillingness to embark on research of their own sets the reviewers back in the comfortable past of art devoted to formal aesthetic pursuits or ironic commentaries on society. As Bronac writes, there is a whole world of younger more energetic minds who find this work of interest, who can and do interact with it. So many of them that the carpark had to be closed and I couldn't see the installation.
>
> Even more interesting is the possibility that scientists and artists may be able to feed each other, that collaborations between artists and scientists can become a meaningful two way process where both discover something new from their communication.
>
> all best
>
> Liliane
>
> Liliane Lijn
>
> 07770350633
> 02088095636
> www.lilianelijn.com <http://www.lilianelijn.com/>
>> On 29 May 2016, at 20:15, bronac@boundaryobject.org wrote:
>>
>> Hi Roger and all
>>
>> I missed it unfortunately - but I did hear great things about this event
>> from curator/producers who understand this kind of work and there was a
>> real buzz about the project in London when it was taking place.
>>
>> You can sample a bit of it and read other perspectices from more
>> informed voices here:
>>
>> http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-films/watch-a-trailer-for-ryoji-ikedas-supersymmetry-installation-open-now-at-brewer-street-car-park/
>>
>>
>> http://www.timeout.com/london/art/ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>>
>> https://iloveqc.org/ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry-at-brewer-street-carpark-london-review/
>>
>>
>> I think broader questions are 'why do even high profile big budget
>> art-science related works rarely get reviewed in mainstream press' or
>> 'why do they receive such poor (as in poorly researched) reviews when
>> this does happen'....which are difficult questions to
>> answer------suspect Joost is right. One wouldn't look to The Guardian or
>> its reviewers for an informed perspective on Ikeda and this kind of
>> practice which comes from a root that would not be familiar to them. It
>> is like they are being sent off to review a work without having any
>> knowledge of the artist's professional trajectory up to this point so
>> this doesn't get mentioned nor does any reference get made to the
>> context within which the CERN residency took place (ie a whole history
>> of such encounters). So the old chestnut of art and science and their
>> mutual mis/understanding becomes the focus of this tired and trite
>> commentary. Sadly while reviewers such as Jones might think they are
>> being provocative in fact fewer and fewer people are listening
>> ....certainly the audiences for this kind of work (which are enormous
>> and increasingly youthful) have slipped well beyond the orbit of the
>> newspaper's sphere of influence.
>> Bronaċ
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

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If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Mercado Central Exchange - Science is not Art

Dear Yasminers & Liliane

Thanks very much for this response. I do agree with you about the
regular entwining of visual art criticism in major newspapers with the
gallery museum network. It is more likely that reasonably informed
reviews about work such as Ikeda's would be found in magazines such as
The Wire - not that I am complaining about The Guardian deciding to
cover this particular work in the car park! I think there is another
broader issue underlying this dialogue which is about evaluation and
where in hybrid fields one should look for it and find it. Double blind
peer review doesn't just apply to science of course but applies also
throughout humanities research and practice-led arts research. It would
falsify the whole situation of making and receiving art if somehow the
value of the experience was measured by its repeatability. But a
certain level of cohesive critical acceptance is often one way of
assessing whether or not an artwork matters (in the long-term). That
criticism is no longer confined to journalistic gatekeepers but can
spread virally through social media, word of mouth and niche commentary
is a very good thing for activities that weren't designed to fit within
established categories or indeed markets.

B

On 2016-05-30 16:00, Liliane Lijn wrote:

> Hi Roger, Bronac and all
>
> I have been reading your reactions to Jonathan Jones' negative review of Ryogi Ikeda's installation. I tried to see it in the Brewer street Carpark but it was very soon closed down due to overcrowding. I have been to CERN on a fascinating albeit brief visit and came away with more of an understanding of the hugeness of the endeavour. One of the great differences between science and art is that science, despite the usual individual striving for success, is on the whole a collaborative discipline. It is collaborative on an international scale, while art is on the whole rooted in the individual and up until very recently, a way of seeing the world through another's eyes.Proust described it as being similar to seeing the then unknown dark side of the moon. We have now seen that dark side and his metaphor may no longer be valid, in that art practice is slowly moving towards a more collaborative methodology, particularly in the field of art and science.
>
> I also came away from CERN feeling that cosmology and particle physics, now so entwined, is also deeply connected to ancient creation myths.
>
> I concur with Bronac's query regarding the absence of serious critical attention from major art journals and newspapers but wouldn't that also be because they are tied to the entire gallery museum network? That and an unwillingness to embark on research of their own sets the reviewers back in the comfortable past of art devoted to formal aesthetic pursuits or ironic commentaries on society. As Bronac writes, there is a whole world of younger more energetic minds who find this work of interest, who can and do interact with it. So many of them that the carpark had to be closed and I couldn't see the installation.
>
> Even more interesting is the possibility that scientists and artists may be able to feed each other, that collaborations between artists and scientists can become a meaningful two way process where both discover something new from their communication.
>
> all best
>
> Liliane
>
> Liliane Lijn
>
> 07770350633
> 02088095636 www.lilianelijn.com [1]
>
>> On 29 May 2016, at 20:15, bronac@boundaryobject.org wrote:
>> Hi Roger and all
>>
>> I missed it unfortunately - but I did hear great things about this event
>> from curator/producers who understand this kind of work and there was a
>> real buzz about the project in London when it was taking place.
>>
>> You can sample a bit of it and read other perspectices from more
>> informed voices here:
>>
>> http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-films/watch-a-trailer-for-ryoji-ikedas-supersymmetry-installation-open-now-at-brewer-street-car-park/
>>
>> http://www.timeout.com/london/art/ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>>
>> https://iloveqc.org/ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry-at-brewer-street-carpark-london-review/
>>
>> I think broader questions are 'why do even high profile big budget
>> art-science related works rarely get reviewed in mainstream press' or
>> 'why do they receive such poor (as in poorly researched) reviews when
>> this does happen'....which are difficult questions to
>> answer------suspect Joost is right. One wouldn't look to The Guardian or
>> its reviewers for an informed perspective on Ikeda and this kind of
>> practice which comes from a root that would not be familiar to them. It
>> is like they are being sent off to review a work without having any
>> knowledge of the artist's professional trajectory up to this point so
>> this doesn't get mentioned nor does any reference get made to the
>> context within which the CERN residency took place (ie a whole history
>> of such encounters). So the old chestnut of art and science and their
>> mutual mis/understanding becomes the focus of this tired and trite
>> commentary. Sadly while reviewers such as Jones might think they are
>> being provocative in fact fewer and fewer people are listening
>> ....certainly the audiences for this kind of work (which are enormous
>> and increasingly youthful) have slipped well beyond the orbit of the
>> newspaper's sphere of influence.
>> Bronaċ
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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Links:
------
[1] http://www.lilianelijn.com/
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] scathing review of Ryoji Ikeda's art project from CERN residency

For those interested in some further discussion of this article by
Jones, you can see a conversation in e-flux from April here:
http://conversations.e-flux.com/t/whats-art-got-to-do-with-science/1489

David Harris
UCSC Digital Arts and New Media

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 8:40 PM, Liliane Lijn <liliane@lilianelijn.com> wrote:
> Dear Roger
>
> I have not seen Ryoji Ikeda's present installation, although in photographs it looks impressive. I cannot, therefore, specifically respond to Jonathan Jones' critique of it. Generally speaking, I have some sympathy for his view, but in my experience, it is very easy to be critical of work and even to agree with the criticism of others but it is a very different matter to be positive and make clear what one does like or is inspired by. It is only on hearing which artists working on that edge between art and science Jonathan Jones would find inspiring, if any, that you begin to understand what he is about.
>
> My response to this interesting question
>
> Liliane Lijn
>
> 07770350633
> 02088095636
> www.lilianelijn.com <http://www.lilianelijn.com/>
>> On 27 May 2016, at 21:13, Malina, Roger <rxm116130@utdallas.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Yasminers
>>
>> Here is a very very negative review of Ryoji's Ikeda's art installation resulting from his cern residency
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>>
>> Should art respond to science? On this evidence, the answer is simple: no way
>> Japanese artist Ryoji Ikeda's installation Supersymmetry is inspired by his residency at Cern -
>> but signifies little more than that physics is weird. Isn't it time we stopped expecting artists to understand the complexities of science?
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2015/apr/23/art-respond-science-cern-ryoji-ikeda-supersymmetry
>>
>> this is very much along the lines of my colleague Jean Marc Levy=Lebond's book 'Science is not art' where he attacks
>> much of the mystification of art science practice
>>
>> the review ends with:
>>
>> Art<https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/art> and science, we feel, should have something to say to each other. But perhaps they speak different languages after all. I don't speak the language of science too
>> well, either, but I do know one thing: it is concerned with the wonder of nature. There is a depressing lack of wonder in this technically sophisticated but intellectually and emotionally empty art.
>>
>> would be interested in Yasminer reactions= has anyone seen the work ?
>>
>> roger malina
>>
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