Beautifully said, Alejandro, "Artists and scientists are partners and
friends in Humanity's journey on Earth, not adversaries." But they walk and
want to walk separately, because their self-interested goals are different.
Only when they can think beyond their self-interest they can walk together,
and then many of our issues will be solved.
Rasheed Araeen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
[mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Paul
Fishwick
Sent: 25 August 2013 22:42
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contributeto
successful scientific practice
I blogged on this earlier today - I'd like any comments especially on
Bugliarello's article:
http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
At a high level, it could provide some ideas for collaboration and resolving
issues.
-p
On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:02 PM, alejandro tamayo <laimagendelmundo@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
> Hello Roger and All,
>
> I would like to express my opinion on this interesting topic which I've
been following most of the time
>
> I'm sorry to disagree, but on the contrary, I don't see any more good
reasons to keep disciplines as they are. I think humanity will feel as if a
big heavy load has been taken away from its shoulders once disciplines, as
we know them, are vanished and we are confronted back again with the basics.
New ways of dealing with the world will appear as well of new ways of
questioning and learning. The question for me is not if what the arts is
doing is beneficial in any way to science or viceversa. The question should
be broader, do we really need to keep emphasizing these separations?
>
> Borrowing from Roger's example, I don't see either how the history of film
would help to build a space elevator, but at the same time I don't see why
we would need one in the first place. I have to add that I do share a
passion and love for thinking about outer space.
>
> Anyway, my point is that I believe we are missing the point. Science and
Art are not opposed practices or ways of thinking. What determines them, and
have been shaping them so far, are political and cultural agendas. But Art
and Science are in their essence free from them. We just need to reclaim
them (this is where I find an echo with Brian's claim to include the other
A). Artists and scientists are partners and friends in Humanity's journey on
Earth, not adversaries.
>
> Love,
> Alejandro
>
> ...
> www.thepopshop.org
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 8/24/13, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contribute to
successful scientific practice
> To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Received: Saturday, August 24, 2013, 10:50 AM
>
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin
> discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research;
> sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the
> 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O
> wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly
> generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I
> think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist
> any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have
> disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed
> to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space
> elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches
> needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of
> work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be
> really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and
> the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book "
> The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual
> change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate
> approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today
> are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european
> network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just
> been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report
> (
>
http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-whit
e-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to
> prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and
> emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences,
> engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also
> drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in
> the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from
> thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween
> branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than
> networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than
> through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to
> destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation
> between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art
> and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail
> parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam
> engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving
> around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid
> practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of
> Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my
> case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics
> resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more
> than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked
> knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines
> within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the
> concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so
> firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps
> sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely
> because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse
> from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist
> legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice,
> rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability
> of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the
> avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of
> departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their
> collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or
> even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly
> unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the
> techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical
> collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting
> collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and
> scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes
> of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two
> cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are
> really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question
> can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred
> conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to
> discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have
> been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in
> art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that
> IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Danny
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Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
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