Paul's post made me realize that I should clarify my own comments, as I agree that myth, fantasy, fiction, and other sources outside the realm of reality are certainly valid for artistic inspiration. I myself have used passages from the Bible in my works for their literary and evocative potential; but the idea that this content somehow imbues the work with some higher spiritual meaning crosses the line for me. I feel that the work itself can produce a transcendent aesthetic experience without the need for some supernatural component.
Joe
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Joseph Klein, DMus
Distinguished Teaching Professor
Chair, Division of Composition Studies
University of North Texas College of Music
1155 Union Circle #311367
Denton, TX 76203-5017
(940)565-4926 (ph); (940)565-2002 (fax)
Joseph.Klein@unt.edu
http://www.music.unt.edu/comp/josephklein
________________________________________
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr <yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr> on behalf of Paul Fishwick <metaphorz@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 3:59 PM
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] the supernatural
As one respondent to:
> So I would ask the Yasmin list members -- is there a pseudo-science
> element concealed within the Art-Science enterprise?
I certainly hope not.
There is a fine line between 1) enjoying myth and the supernatural in terms
of telling stories and making art, and 2) treating the supernatural as forming
our "reality" however one may define it. Joseph Campbell's work speaks to
this - there are many wonderful stories but science draws the line with a art of
ontological barrier: just because something is unknown doesn't mean that
we have blank minds. In Campbell's approach to creation myths, they are
wonderful regardless of "truth."
Some thoughts to get the juices flowing.
-p
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished University Chair of Arts & Technology
and Professor of Computer Science
Director, Creative Automata Laboratory
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
Home: utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
Blog: creative-automata.com
_______________________________________________
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Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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Thursday, October 16, 2014
Re: [Yasmin_discussions] the supernatural
You might as well ask whether there is a pseudo art element.
There is bound to be something of everything as in all tendencies. But this is an area rich with interest and ideas.
Best
Liliane Lijn
There is bound to be something of everything as in all tendencies. But this is an area rich with interest and ideas.
Best
Liliane Lijn
Sent from my iPhone
> On 16 Oct 2014, at 21:59, Paul Fishwick <metaphorz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As one respondent to:
>
>> So I would ask the Yasmin list members -- is there a pseudo-science
>> element concealed within the Art-Science enterprise?
>
> I certainly hope not.
>
> There is a fine line between 1) enjoying myth and the supernatural in terms
> of telling stories and making art, and 2) treating the supernatural as forming
> our "reality" however one may define it. Joseph Campbell's work speaks to
> this - there are many wonderful stories but science draws the line with a art of
> ontological barrier: just because something is unknown doesn't mean that
> we have blank minds. In Campbell's approach to creation myths, they are
> wonderful regardless of "truth."
>
> Some thoughts to get the juices flowing.
> -p
>
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Chair, ACM SIGSIM
> Distinguished University Chair of Arts & Technology
> and Professor of Computer Science
> Director, Creative Automata Laboratory
> The University of Texas at Dallas
> Arts & Technology
> 800 West Campbell Road, AT10
> Richardson, TX 75080-3021
> Home: utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
> Blog: creative-automata.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
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Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] the supernatural
Greetings, Yasminers....
Thank you to Stephen Nowlin and Roger Malina for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion.
My name is Joseph Klein, and I am a composer, professor of music, and chair of the Division of Composition Studies at the University of North Texas in Denton, where I have taught since 1992. I'm coming at this discussion from the art side of the equation, though my own creative work borrows heavily from mathematics and the sciences---in fact, I was a microbiology major in college for two years before the lure of music finally won me over. In my own work, I am particularly interested in fractal geometry, cosmology, systems theory, and chaos/complexity, and how concepts from these areas can be applied to musical structures, ultimately searching for the inherent poetry in these phenomena.
While the concept of the "supernatural" is not anathema to music/art as it is to science, as an artist I am very interested in the idea of transcendence through art without the need of a spiritual crutch. I have had a fascination with religion and humankind's relationship with the supernatural for several decades now---mostly out of curiosity as to why, after centuries of scientific advances, such a large percentage of our society still holds onto such primitive and irrefutably discredited beliefs. As a music student, I realized early on that a significant portion of the music literature we analyzed and researched was sacred (particularly the body of works in Western art music composed before 1600); and while this was perhaps due as much (if not more) to the patronage of the Roman Catholic Church and fear of reprisal for noncompliance, it is often interpreted and presented by religious apologists as the result of some burning desire on the artists' part to express their devout faith in an almighty creator through their work.
While the church does not have the same hegemonic control over artists now as it did centuries ago, there are still many composers who find inspiration in Biblical scriptures, often resulting in trite, treacly, and largely unimaginative works. It's an interesting fact that the majority of composition students I have taught here at UNT over the years have composed works based on Biblical themes and texts---due in large part, I'm sure, to the region of the country where I teach---most of whom take these stories quite literally, and several of whom have produced almost exclusively religious-based works in their oeuvre. I would expect this from young undergraduates, particularly those who have been home-schooled for religious reasons (and there are many of those here); but I have been astounded by the number of doctoral students who have composed religious works for their dissertations, and then attempt to base their accompanying written documents on literal interpretations of the Bible in support of their compositions. On an interesting side-note: while I personally find that this subject matter (depending on how overt the references are) often detracts from the overall musical experience, I have observed that the faithful in the audience will accept even the most experimental artistic expression as a result of their connection to the work's religious source of inspiration. So in an ironic twist, this connection to the supernatural allows the spiritual listeners to approach these works with a more open mind, which would likely not have been the case with a similar work based on secular themes.
As a result of these experiences as both a teacher and composer, I have become increasingly impatient with magical sources of inspiration---which seem to me a by-product of an earlier era---and have found naturalistic models to be far more rewarding compositionally, and able to yield compelling and even transcendent works of art. In the same manner that the scientific method has gradually edged out superstition as a way to understand the natural world, I hope that such an approach will eventually gain traction in the arts as well.
I look forward to further comments on this topic, and thanks again for the invitation to participate.
Joe
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Joseph Klein, DMus
Distinguished Teaching Professor
Chair, Division of Composition Studies
University of North Texas College of Music
1155 Union Circle #311367
Denton, TX 76203-5017
(940)565-4926 (ph); (940)565-2002 (fax)
Joseph.Klein@unt.edu
http://www.music.unt.edu/comp/josephklein
________________________________________
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr <yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr> on behalf of Stephen Nowlin <stephen.nowlin@artcenter.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 3:01 PM
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] the supernatural
Hi, Glenn -- thanks for the link to Caldaria, it looks like a very good
forum (now bookmarked). I found intriguing your quote there by Jack
Burnham that "new spiritual insights into the normality of materialism are
needed." That is, in my view, very much what this discussion is about, and
it falls neatly into the domain of Art-Science. The territory, though, is
loose underfoot -- pitfalls including slippage into pseudoscience and new
ageism, among others.
That is why I think that a _populist_ discussion/deconstruction of the
commonplace concept "supernatural" needs to ensue, at least in those
cultures that permit such open discourse. In Art-Science, art has taken up
with a partner that specifically excludes the supernatural from its world
view, and so Art-Science needs to awaken to the fact that ownership of
this discourse comes with the territory. The process of developing the
so-called 'new spiritual insights' needs to carefully sidestep the hazards
of pseudoscience and maintain the integrity of a true scientific world
view -- the one with which art has ostensibly chosen to partner.
As you predicted, I agree with the nicely poetic first part of your quoted
passage below. But the sentence could have ended at "powers." From what
place in the imagination is the "Great Face" conjured? The unknown? Is it
the face of God-of-the-Gaps? The second part of the passage is precisely
the problem for Art-Science.
So I would ask the Yasmin list members -- is there a pseudo-science
element concealed within the Art-Science enterprise?
Good post, Glenn -- thanks again,
/stephen
On 10/15/14 7:42 PM, "Glenn Smith" <gsmith@space-machines.com> wrote:
>Dear Stephen,
>
>By way of understanding your position, I am wondering
>to what extent you would agree with this famous
>passage by Loren Eiseley which concludes his
>"Immense Journey", and the first part of which was
>cited by Carl Sagan in his synoptic article "Life"
>for the 15th edition of the Britannica:
>
>"I would say that if 'dead' matter has reared up this
>curious landscape of fiddling crickets, song sparrows,
>and wondering men, it must be plain even to the most
>dedicated materialist that the matter of which he speaks
>contains amazing, if not dreadful powers, and may not
>impossibly be, as Hardy has suggested, 'but one mask
>of many worn by the Great Face behind.'"
>
>My guess is that you might agree with the first part
>of this passage; but it is the second -- the reference to
>the "Great Face behind" -- with which you specifically
>and forcefully disagree.
>
>Some of my own thoughts on this subject have already
>been expressed in a new journal dedicated precisely to
>the "nexus of art, science, and the sublime":
>
>http://www.caldaria.org/2014/02/the-beat-goes-on-review-by-g-w-smith.html
>
>At any rate, this should be a fascinating conversation!
>
>Regards,
>G. W. (Glenn) Smith
>www.space-machines.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
>Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
>page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
>password in the fields found further down the page.
>HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
>the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
>http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
Thank you to Stephen Nowlin and Roger Malina for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion.
My name is Joseph Klein, and I am a composer, professor of music, and chair of the Division of Composition Studies at the University of North Texas in Denton, where I have taught since 1992. I'm coming at this discussion from the art side of the equation, though my own creative work borrows heavily from mathematics and the sciences---in fact, I was a microbiology major in college for two years before the lure of music finally won me over. In my own work, I am particularly interested in fractal geometry, cosmology, systems theory, and chaos/complexity, and how concepts from these areas can be applied to musical structures, ultimately searching for the inherent poetry in these phenomena.
While the concept of the "supernatural" is not anathema to music/art as it is to science, as an artist I am very interested in the idea of transcendence through art without the need of a spiritual crutch. I have had a fascination with religion and humankind's relationship with the supernatural for several decades now---mostly out of curiosity as to why, after centuries of scientific advances, such a large percentage of our society still holds onto such primitive and irrefutably discredited beliefs. As a music student, I realized early on that a significant portion of the music literature we analyzed and researched was sacred (particularly the body of works in Western art music composed before 1600); and while this was perhaps due as much (if not more) to the patronage of the Roman Catholic Church and fear of reprisal for noncompliance, it is often interpreted and presented by religious apologists as the result of some burning desire on the artists' part to express their devout faith in an almighty creator through their work.
While the church does not have the same hegemonic control over artists now as it did centuries ago, there are still many composers who find inspiration in Biblical scriptures, often resulting in trite, treacly, and largely unimaginative works. It's an interesting fact that the majority of composition students I have taught here at UNT over the years have composed works based on Biblical themes and texts---due in large part, I'm sure, to the region of the country where I teach---most of whom take these stories quite literally, and several of whom have produced almost exclusively religious-based works in their oeuvre. I would expect this from young undergraduates, particularly those who have been home-schooled for religious reasons (and there are many of those here); but I have been astounded by the number of doctoral students who have composed religious works for their dissertations, and then attempt to base their accompanying written documents on literal interpretations of the Bible in support of their compositions. On an interesting side-note: while I personally find that this subject matter (depending on how overt the references are) often detracts from the overall musical experience, I have observed that the faithful in the audience will accept even the most experimental artistic expression as a result of their connection to the work's religious source of inspiration. So in an ironic twist, this connection to the supernatural allows the spiritual listeners to approach these works with a more open mind, which would likely not have been the case with a similar work based on secular themes.
As a result of these experiences as both a teacher and composer, I have become increasingly impatient with magical sources of inspiration---which seem to me a by-product of an earlier era---and have found naturalistic models to be far more rewarding compositionally, and able to yield compelling and even transcendent works of art. In the same manner that the scientific method has gradually edged out superstition as a way to understand the natural world, I hope that such an approach will eventually gain traction in the arts as well.
I look forward to further comments on this topic, and thanks again for the invitation to participate.
Joe
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Joseph Klein, DMus
Distinguished Teaching Professor
Chair, Division of Composition Studies
University of North Texas College of Music
1155 Union Circle #311367
Denton, TX 76203-5017
(940)565-4926 (ph); (940)565-2002 (fax)
Joseph.Klein@unt.edu
http://www.music.unt.edu/comp/josephklein
________________________________________
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr <yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr> on behalf of Stephen Nowlin <stephen.nowlin@artcenter.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 3:01 PM
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] the supernatural
Hi, Glenn -- thanks for the link to Caldaria, it looks like a very good
forum (now bookmarked). I found intriguing your quote there by Jack
Burnham that "new spiritual insights into the normality of materialism are
needed." That is, in my view, very much what this discussion is about, and
it falls neatly into the domain of Art-Science. The territory, though, is
loose underfoot -- pitfalls including slippage into pseudoscience and new
ageism, among others.
That is why I think that a _populist_ discussion/deconstruction of the
commonplace concept "supernatural" needs to ensue, at least in those
cultures that permit such open discourse. In Art-Science, art has taken up
with a partner that specifically excludes the supernatural from its world
view, and so Art-Science needs to awaken to the fact that ownership of
this discourse comes with the territory. The process of developing the
so-called 'new spiritual insights' needs to carefully sidestep the hazards
of pseudoscience and maintain the integrity of a true scientific world
view -- the one with which art has ostensibly chosen to partner.
As you predicted, I agree with the nicely poetic first part of your quoted
passage below. But the sentence could have ended at "powers." From what
place in the imagination is the "Great Face" conjured? The unknown? Is it
the face of God-of-the-Gaps? The second part of the passage is precisely
the problem for Art-Science.
So I would ask the Yasmin list members -- is there a pseudo-science
element concealed within the Art-Science enterprise?
Good post, Glenn -- thanks again,
/stephen
On 10/15/14 7:42 PM, "Glenn Smith" <gsmith@space-machines.com> wrote:
>Dear Stephen,
>
>By way of understanding your position, I am wondering
>to what extent you would agree with this famous
>passage by Loren Eiseley which concludes his
>"Immense Journey", and the first part of which was
>cited by Carl Sagan in his synoptic article "Life"
>for the 15th edition of the Britannica:
>
>"I would say that if 'dead' matter has reared up this
>curious landscape of fiddling crickets, song sparrows,
>and wondering men, it must be plain even to the most
>dedicated materialist that the matter of which he speaks
>contains amazing, if not dreadful powers, and may not
>impossibly be, as Hardy has suggested, 'but one mask
>of many worn by the Great Face behind.'"
>
>My guess is that you might agree with the first part
>of this passage; but it is the second -- the reference to
>the "Great Face behind" -- with which you specifically
>and forcefully disagree.
>
>Some of my own thoughts on this subject have already
>been expressed in a new journal dedicated precisely to
>the "nexus of art, science, and the sublime":
>
>http://www.caldaria.org/2014/02/the-beat-goes-on-review-by-g-w-smith.html
>
>At any rate, this should be a fascinating conversation!
>
>Regards,
>G. W. (Glenn) Smith
>www.space-machines.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
>Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
>page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
>password in the fields found further down the page.
>HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
>the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
>http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
Re: [Yasmin_discussions] the supernatural
As one respondent to:
> So I would ask the Yasmin list members -- is there a pseudo-science
> element concealed within the Art-Science enterprise?
I certainly hope not.
There is a fine line between 1) enjoying myth and the supernatural in terms
of telling stories and making art, and 2) treating the supernatural as forming
our "reality" however one may define it. Joseph Campbell's work speaks to
this - there are many wonderful stories but science draws the line with a art of
ontological barrier: just because something is unknown doesn't mean that
we have blank minds. In Campbell's approach to creation myths, they are
wonderful regardless of "truth."
Some thoughts to get the juices flowing.
-p
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished University Chair of Arts & Technology
and Professor of Computer Science
Director, Creative Automata Laboratory
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
Home: utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
Blog: creative-automata.com
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
> So I would ask the Yasmin list members -- is there a pseudo-science
> element concealed within the Art-Science enterprise?
I certainly hope not.
There is a fine line between 1) enjoying myth and the supernatural in terms
of telling stories and making art, and 2) treating the supernatural as forming
our "reality" however one may define it. Joseph Campbell's work speaks to
this - there are many wonderful stories but science draws the line with a art of
ontological barrier: just because something is unknown doesn't mean that
we have blank minds. In Campbell's approach to creation myths, they are
wonderful regardless of "truth."
Some thoughts to get the juices flowing.
-p
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished University Chair of Arts & Technology
and Professor of Computer Science
Director, Creative Automata Laboratory
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
Home: utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
Blog: creative-automata.com
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
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[Yasmin_discussions] Introduction and opening statement
Hello everyone. I'm happy to be participating in this discussion. A little
bit about myself. I am a scientist and Director of the Biological Imaging
Facility at Caltech in Pasadena, California. I have a Ph.D. in Zoology from
U. C. Berkeley where I worked on the evolution of development in a family
of amphibians. Currently my lab studies the development of the inner ear at
the cellular and molecular levels to better understand the causes of
newborn hearing loss. The overarching goal of my research program is to
push the limits of light microscopy to study how proteins function in as
close to in vivo conditions as possible. Obviously I am far more familiar
with the Science than the art side of things though I am looking forward
to learning a great deal from this discussion.
As to my statement I want to raise the only point that I ever found vaguely
compelling in regards to the supernatural. It was an argument from a
Catholic medieval studies professor, at my undergraduate institution, about
alternate philosophical frameworks. I, of course, am a huge proponent of
the scientific method being the best (only) philosophical framework for
understanding the natural world. Are there other "truths" that can be
revealed by alternate philosophical methods? This Catholic professor I
spoke of argued yes and his examples used truism of art, music and
literature. I will use updated examples of true statements that can be
arrived at without using the scientific method. I would argue that the hip
hop group Public Enemy is far superior to the hip hop group Marky Mark and
the Funky Bunch. Keeping to music, I think it is also not controversial
that Mozart is superior to Salieri. I think these are "truths" that one can
arrive at outside of the scientific method. Does this mean that one
couldn't use the scientific method to prove these points? No, I think one
could though it might be difficult (do you use popularity? the consensus of
music critics?) as any criteria could change over time (I think an
historical perspective is crucial for such truisms). Music, art and
literature can really impact people and it seems as if this emotional
impact is being utilized to justify the supernatural.
This is my first time posting on Yasmin and I wish to thank the organizers
for inviting me to participate.
--
Andres Collazo, Ph.D.
Director, Biological Imaging Facility
Beckman Institute
California Institute of Technology
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
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bit about myself. I am a scientist and Director of the Biological Imaging
Facility at Caltech in Pasadena, California. I have a Ph.D. in Zoology from
U. C. Berkeley where I worked on the evolution of development in a family
of amphibians. Currently my lab studies the development of the inner ear at
the cellular and molecular levels to better understand the causes of
newborn hearing loss. The overarching goal of my research program is to
push the limits of light microscopy to study how proteins function in as
close to in vivo conditions as possible. Obviously I am far more familiar
with the Science than the art side of things though I am looking forward
to learning a great deal from this discussion.
As to my statement I want to raise the only point that I ever found vaguely
compelling in regards to the supernatural. It was an argument from a
Catholic medieval studies professor, at my undergraduate institution, about
alternate philosophical frameworks. I, of course, am a huge proponent of
the scientific method being the best (only) philosophical framework for
understanding the natural world. Are there other "truths" that can be
revealed by alternate philosophical methods? This Catholic professor I
spoke of argued yes and his examples used truism of art, music and
literature. I will use updated examples of true statements that can be
arrived at without using the scientific method. I would argue that the hip
hop group Public Enemy is far superior to the hip hop group Marky Mark and
the Funky Bunch. Keeping to music, I think it is also not controversial
that Mozart is superior to Salieri. I think these are "truths" that one can
arrive at outside of the scientific method. Does this mean that one
couldn't use the scientific method to prove these points? No, I think one
could though it might be difficult (do you use popularity? the consensus of
music critics?) as any criteria could change over time (I think an
historical perspective is crucial for such truisms). Music, art and
literature can really impact people and it seems as if this emotional
impact is being utilized to justify the supernatural.
This is my first time posting on Yasmin and I wish to thank the organizers
for inviting me to participate.
--
Andres Collazo, Ph.D.
Director, Biological Imaging Facility
Beckman Institute
California Institute of Technology
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
Re: [Yasmin_discussions] the supernatural
Hi, Glenn -- thanks for the link to Caldaria, it looks like a very good
forum (now bookmarked). I found intriguing your quote there by Jack
Burnham that "new spiritual insights into the normality of materialism are
needed." That is, in my view, very much what this discussion is about, and
it falls neatly into the domain of Art-Science. The territory, though, is
loose underfoot -- pitfalls including slippage into pseudoscience and new
ageism, among others.
That is why I think that a _populist_ discussion/deconstruction of the
commonplace concept "supernatural" needs to ensue, at least in those
cultures that permit such open discourse. In Art-Science, art has taken up
with a partner that specifically excludes the supernatural from its world
view, and so Art-Science needs to awaken to the fact that ownership of
this discourse comes with the territory. The process of developing the
so-called 'new spiritual insights' needs to carefully sidestep the hazards
of pseudoscience and maintain the integrity of a true scientific world
view -- the one with which art has ostensibly chosen to partner.
As you predicted, I agree with the nicely poetic first part of your quoted
passage below. But the sentence could have ended at "powers." From what
place in the imagination is the "Great Face" conjured? The unknown? Is it
the face of God-of-the-Gaps? The second part of the passage is precisely
the problem for Art-Science.
So I would ask the Yasmin list members -- is there a pseudo-science
element concealed within the Art-Science enterprise?
Good post, Glenn -- thanks again,
/stephen
On 10/15/14 7:42 PM, "Glenn Smith" <gsmith@space-machines.com> wrote:
>Dear Stephen,
>
>By way of understanding your position, I am wondering
>to what extent you would agree with this famous
>passage by Loren Eiseley which concludes his
>"Immense Journey", and the first part of which was
>cited by Carl Sagan in his synoptic article "Life"
>for the 15th edition of the Britannica:
>
>"I would say that if 'dead' matter has reared up this
>curious landscape of fiddling crickets, song sparrows,
>and wondering men, it must be plain even to the most
>dedicated materialist that the matter of which he speaks
>contains amazing, if not dreadful powers, and may not
>impossibly be, as Hardy has suggested, 'but one mask
>of many worn by the Great Face behind.'"
>
>My guess is that you might agree with the first part
>of this passage; but it is the second -- the reference to
>the "Great Face behind" -- with which you specifically
>and forcefully disagree.
>
>Some of my own thoughts on this subject have already
>been expressed in a new journal dedicated precisely to
>the "nexus of art, science, and the sublime":
>
>http://www.caldaria.org/2014/02/the-beat-goes-on-review-by-g-w-smith.html
>
>At any rate, this should be a fascinating conversation!
>
>Regards,
>G. W. (Glenn) Smith
>www.space-machines.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
>Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
>page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
>password in the fields found further down the page.
>HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
>the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
>http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
forum (now bookmarked). I found intriguing your quote there by Jack
Burnham that "new spiritual insights into the normality of materialism are
needed." That is, in my view, very much what this discussion is about, and
it falls neatly into the domain of Art-Science. The territory, though, is
loose underfoot -- pitfalls including slippage into pseudoscience and new
ageism, among others.
That is why I think that a _populist_ discussion/deconstruction of the
commonplace concept "supernatural" needs to ensue, at least in those
cultures that permit such open discourse. In Art-Science, art has taken up
with a partner that specifically excludes the supernatural from its world
view, and so Art-Science needs to awaken to the fact that ownership of
this discourse comes with the territory. The process of developing the
so-called 'new spiritual insights' needs to carefully sidestep the hazards
of pseudoscience and maintain the integrity of a true scientific world
view -- the one with which art has ostensibly chosen to partner.
As you predicted, I agree with the nicely poetic first part of your quoted
passage below. But the sentence could have ended at "powers." From what
place in the imagination is the "Great Face" conjured? The unknown? Is it
the face of God-of-the-Gaps? The second part of the passage is precisely
the problem for Art-Science.
So I would ask the Yasmin list members -- is there a pseudo-science
element concealed within the Art-Science enterprise?
Good post, Glenn -- thanks again,
/stephen
On 10/15/14 7:42 PM, "Glenn Smith" <gsmith@space-machines.com> wrote:
>Dear Stephen,
>
>By way of understanding your position, I am wondering
>to what extent you would agree with this famous
>passage by Loren Eiseley which concludes his
>"Immense Journey", and the first part of which was
>cited by Carl Sagan in his synoptic article "Life"
>for the 15th edition of the Britannica:
>
>"I would say that if 'dead' matter has reared up this
>curious landscape of fiddling crickets, song sparrows,
>and wondering men, it must be plain even to the most
>dedicated materialist that the matter of which he speaks
>contains amazing, if not dreadful powers, and may not
>impossibly be, as Hardy has suggested, 'but one mask
>of many worn by the Great Face behind.'"
>
>My guess is that you might agree with the first part
>of this passage; but it is the second -- the reference to
>the "Great Face behind" -- with which you specifically
>and forcefully disagree.
>
>Some of my own thoughts on this subject have already
>been expressed in a new journal dedicated precisely to
>the "nexus of art, science, and the sublime":
>
>http://www.caldaria.org/2014/02/the-beat-goes-on-review-by-g-w-smith.html
>
>At any rate, this should be a fascinating conversation!
>
>Regards,
>G. W. (Glenn) Smith
>www.space-machines.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
>Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
>page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
>password in the fields found further down the page.
>HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
>the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
>http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
[Yasmin_discussions] joining the "supernatural" discussion
Over history, cultures have told and retold many creation stories. Science
has given us a new (perpetually self-revising) creation stories, to explain
how we got here, how our planet was formed, how we behave, how
incomprehensibly ancient and gigantic some phenomena are, how tiny and
quick others are, etc . I am interested in ways that artists can help covey
awe about the stories of science. Catholicism used art to help shift
cultural paradigms – the rites and arts of old religions over time became
Christian. Can art do the same for the narratives and processes of science?
What are our new stained glass windows?
has given us a new (perpetually self-revising) creation stories, to explain
how we got here, how our planet was formed, how we behave, how
incomprehensibly ancient and gigantic some phenomena are, how tiny and
quick others are, etc . I am interested in ways that artists can help covey
awe about the stories of science. Catholicism used art to help shift
cultural paradigms – the rites and arts of old religions over time became
Christian. Can art do the same for the narratives and processes of science?
What are our new stained glass windows?
This is my first time posting to Yasmin, and I welcome the opportunity for
this important discussion, delineating the boundaries of science and
nature. I think it will be useful to probe the boundaries of what we define
as "science" and "nature," to explore what belongs within those boundaries,
and what names we can find for things that belong outside of them.
I have an incipient little org called Symbiosis Art+Science Alliance which
catalyzes art-science collaborations. I studied "Time Arts" at the School
of the Art Institute of Chicago, and I'm interested in exploring how to
convey emergent systems and deep time through lineages of very simple
drawings. I have worked in evolutionary biology and ecology labs, mostly
with pollination biology, insect microbial symbionts, and large-scale
ecology. Thank you for inviting me to be part of this discussion.
--
*Nancy Lowe*
*Director, Symbiosis Art + Science Alliance*
*http://symbiosisartscience.org <http://symbiosisartscience.org>*
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
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