Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Why do Science Films often have such terrible use of music or sound

"Orchestra" music has unpopularity against it as an option for a promo
video. On the other hand it is probably made on the simpler elements and
might be the best option while wanting the message to arrive wherever,
avoiding ephimerous cultural or geographical Conditions.
El 15/04/2015 02:34, "Guillermo Muñoz" <m.m.guillermo@gmail.com> escribió:

> Hello,
>
> Let´s follow with sound and music relation modulated by sun video, if my
> poor english let me do it.
>
> The video is a promotional video as the one that i sended about Valencia
> (in fact i sended last week but it was stoped until light discussion ends).
> In the video of my city the "objetc" to sell is tourism (so, come to
> Valencia !!). But in the NASA video the selling could be something like "we
> are developing good research" (so, please, don´t stop to give us money).
>
> In the discussion it is said that the composers are from these days, and
> the music was composed for this occasion (is it correct?). So, seems that
> it is not only a vulgarity or naive decission, and may be it is not wrong
> to say that it is well paid.
>
> I knew the Brilliant Noise film from Semiconductor, and this is just
> fascinating. It is not just a piece of art, it is an art science
> colaboration.
>
> I think promotional films have their space. The problem is: why we need it
> in science popularization? Most of the time, science popularization is
> justified by the, now yes, naives sentences like: science is knowledge, so,
> it is need pushing science to society. But, if we need to push education
> issues, why to do it in only one mode?,
>
> If we are interested only in the promotion (so, money), the other face of
> the coin is just saying that in fact we are not very interested in the
> educational issues. Why not to do it in both ways? So, in my opinion, the
> only way to do an honest educational program is recalling that all
> educational issues (science, art, humanities, ...., images, sounds, tastes,
> ...) are important and relevant. We are not superheros, we can not know
> everything of each area, but just an empathic predisposition could be
> enough.
>
> In all my work related to science popularization i listened many, many,
> many, many times words like: Chemistry is very important, or Physics is
> everywhere, or biology is amazing, ... but it is always said by chemists,
> physicists, biologists, ... I would like to see how a physycist said
> chemistry is very important, or a chemist saying biology is amazing, or a
> biologist saying physics is everywhere, etc, etc, if not may be science
> popularization is just a marketing work. And for sure, art, humanities are
> on the deal, because followin with the same statement, why to do science
> popuralization and not to do a complete educational popularization. So, in
> fact, it is a matter of cultural education, i.e. multimodal problem.
>
> Independet if we are interested in any marketing promotion (we need money
> to perform research), if we are developing a knowledge or educational
> activity, all points of view are important. In fact, the best marketing
> strategy to show that our research is good enough to be continously paid
> would be to show that it is multimodal (so, it would be expected more
> educative interactions, and hence more interesting social developments).
>
> Guillermo.
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Why do Science Films often have such terrible use of music or sound

It was me who said the composers and the música could be contemporáneos.

I was best thinking, I guess that was the idea behind the question, in
pop/rock/anyothergenrebestbondedtopresent type of music as the cost would
be similar to an orchestra piece as the one with the images I saw.

Still I think you are deeply right on the ulterior reflexion about the
porpoise and media for popularization. However I may say its the beauty of
the images itself what pushed me to desire to continue funding NASA and
even if unconsciously that might also be a good stimulus for asking your
self about the science behind the images, those explosions seen in short
frame turning into a continuous current of heat responsible of life of a
whole planet for instance. Anycase I would consider "criminal" to keep such
a beautiful thing for oneself.

Always nice to read you Guille. Pirate love waves may lead you on your way
for the day. Take care brother.
El 15/04/2015 02:34, "Guillermo Muñoz" <m.m.guillermo@gmail.com> escribió:

> Hello,
>
> Let´s follow with sound and music relation modulated by sun video, if my
> poor english let me do it.
>
> The video is a promotional video as the one that i sended about Valencia
> (in fact i sended last week but it was stoped until light discussion ends).
> In the video of my city the "objetc" to sell is tourism (so, come to
> Valencia !!). But in the NASA video the selling could be something like "we
> are developing good research" (so, please, don´t stop to give us money).
>
> In the discussion it is said that the composers are from these days, and
> the music was composed for this occasion (is it correct?). So, seems that
> it is not only a vulgarity or naive decission, and may be it is not wrong
> to say that it is well paid.
>
> I knew the Brilliant Noise film from Semiconductor, and this is just
> fascinating. It is not just a piece of art, it is an art science
> colaboration.
>
> I think promotional films have their space. The problem is: why we need it
> in science popularization? Most of the time, science popularization is
> justified by the, now yes, naives sentences like: science is knowledge, so,
> it is need pushing science to society. But, if we need to push education
> issues, why to do it in only one mode?,
>
> If we are interested only in the promotion (so, money), the other face of
> the coin is just saying that in fact we are not very interested in the
> educational issues. Why not to do it in both ways? So, in my opinion, the
> only way to do an honest educational program is recalling that all
> educational issues (science, art, humanities, ...., images, sounds, tastes,
> ...) are important and relevant. We are not superheros, we can not know
> everything of each area, but just an empathic predisposition could be
> enough.
>
> In all my work related to science popularization i listened many, many,
> many, many times words like: Chemistry is very important, or Physics is
> everywhere, or biology is amazing, ... but it is always said by chemists,
> physicists, biologists, ... I would like to see how a physycist said
> chemistry is very important, or a chemist saying biology is amazing, or a
> biologist saying physics is everywhere, etc, etc, if not may be science
> popularization is just a marketing work. And for sure, art, humanities are
> on the deal, because followin with the same statement, why to do science
> popuralization and not to do a complete educational popularization. So, in
> fact, it is a matter of cultural education, i.e. multimodal problem.
>
> Independet if we are interested in any marketing promotion (we need money
> to perform research), if we are developing a knowledge or educational
> activity, all points of view are important. In fact, the best marketing
> strategy to show that our research is good enough to be continously paid
> would be to show that it is multimodal (so, it would be expected more
> educative interactions, and hence more interesting social developments).
>
> Guillermo.
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest
> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Why do Science Films often have such terrible use of music or sound

Despite a compelling sense of change in the air, my sense is that science -- if it's regarded much at all by most people -- is still commonly regarded as representing a diagrammatic, pragmatic, soul-less relationship to the world. Humans need an emotional connection to their existence (witness religion) -- and science, stereotypically, does not provide that. Not because it can't, but because science education and popularization has traditionally been left to scientists and not to artists. Artists, in the art-sci movement, are now often expressing the poetics of a scientific worldview. Music accompanying a video is an effective means of re-contextualizing science as a form of romance. The sublime of art, nature, and music certainly, is the only true spiritual -- which is a human biological sensation, not a supernatural ether. Science, and progressive thinking in general, needs to claim the so-called spiritual for human biology in the same way it does emotion, fear, anger, ela!
tion, curiosity, etc. Music has a role to play in this realignment. One could quibble as to whether the music accompanying the solar video was effective in emotionalizing our local spinning ball of nuclear fusion -- I think it did pretty well. The real problem with the video was the apparent need its producers felt to offer statistics on the front end, the number of days in space and number of data terabytes -- irrelevant to the grandeur and a throwback to the pocket-protector image of science . . .

/Stephen



-----------------------------------
Stephen Nowlin
Vice President,
Director, Williamson Gallery
Art Center College of Design
http://williamsongallery.net/google

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[Yasmin_discussions] Why do Science Films often have such terrible use of music or sound

Hello,

Let´s follow with sound and music relation modulated by sun video, if my
poor english let me do it.

The video is a promotional video as the one that i sended about Valencia
(in fact i sended last week but it was stoped until light discussion ends).
In the video of my city the "objetc" to sell is tourism (so, come to
Valencia !!). But in the NASA video the selling could be something like "we
are developing good research" (so, please, don´t stop to give us money).

In the discussion it is said that the composers are from these days, and
the music was composed for this occasion (is it correct?). So, seems that
it is not only a vulgarity or naive decission, and may be it is not wrong
to say that it is well paid.

I knew the Brilliant Noise film from Semiconductor, and this is just
fascinating. It is not just a piece of art, it is an art science
colaboration.

I think promotional films have their space. The problem is: why we need it
in science popularization? Most of the time, science popularization is
justified by the, now yes, naives sentences like: science is knowledge, so,
it is need pushing science to society. But, if we need to push education
issues, why to do it in only one mode?,

If we are interested only in the promotion (so, money), the other face of
the coin is just saying that in fact we are not very interested in the
educational issues. Why not to do it in both ways? So, in my opinion, the
only way to do an honest educational program is recalling that all
educational issues (science, art, humanities, ...., images, sounds, tastes,
...) are important and relevant. We are not superheros, we can not know
everything of each area, but just an empathic predisposition could be
enough.

In all my work related to science popularization i listened many, many,
many, many times words like: Chemistry is very important, or Physics is
everywhere, or biology is amazing, ... but it is always said by chemists,
physicists, biologists, ... I would like to see how a physycist said
chemistry is very important, or a chemist saying biology is amazing, or a
biologist saying physics is everywhere, etc, etc, if not may be science
popularization is just a marketing work. And for sure, art, humanities are
on the deal, because followin with the same statement, why to do science
popuralization and not to do a complete educational popularization. So, in
fact, it is a matter of cultural education, i.e. multimodal problem.

Independet if we are interested in any marketing promotion (we need money
to perform research), if we are developing a knowledge or educational
activity, all points of view are important. In fact, the best marketing
strategy to show that our research is good enough to be continously paid
would be to show that it is multimodal (so, it would be expected more
educative interactions, and hence more interesting social developments).

Guillermo.
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Why do Science Films often have such terrible use of music or sound

Good evening everyone. Jc Rayon here, radiologist in Madrid, Spain, bonded
to Piratas de LA Ciencia project.

On the first: should be a number of real good artist who might consider a
privilege to compose an original music for this amazing piece of images in
a very reasonable price, might be cheaper than royalties and best adapted
to images that clearly worth this kind of creative effort.

On the second there is not so much I could say as convinced as the first, I
just see music as an another elementary ingredient on the receipt of a film
with special importance on the mission of highlighting milestones and
increasing dramatic effect of the events on the visual narrative plot. It
could also well perform the opposite function as music is a very easily
understood way to translate digital binary information into perceptible by
senses stimula ... So images might switch also their role in this "music
based" kind of pieces.

Pleasure to be part of this discussion
Regards all

Jc
El 13/04/2015 05:15, "roger malina" <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> escribió:

> Yasminers
>
> As Guillermo Munoz mentioned our discussion Light is my Business
> got re routed when as he says:
>
> "Finally, our discussion has a "dramatic" ending. No because any
> disturbance, just because a "naive" film, from Sun images accompanied with
> music, changes our questions from the interaction between light and sound
> in science popularization films."
>
> The film in question was the NASA Solar Dynamics Observatory in the video
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSVv40M2aks#t=79
>
> I made the rash statement that the video which had impressive scientific
> images was ruined, in my opinion by cliched re use of music by dead
> composers ( which maybe were cheap to get rights to)
>
> I was just thinking aloud that : why is it that science agencies would
> spend large
> amounts of money taking the data and making a video accessible
> to the public, but not invest in state of the art sound or music that
> would augment
> the images through a multi modal approach- why not innovative combinations
> of video and sound to create really effective science engagement
>
> a number of you didnt agree with this , and we put on hold
> some of your posts which we will start re releasing
>
> This is all a good example of how on line discussions are a poor
> substitute for face to face dialogue ! Guillermo is planning a meeting
> of Yasminers
> at the The 2nd Art, Science, City International Conference 201 in
> Valencia this coming October 22/23
> which will bring the art, science and technology community together
> around problematics
> of the build urban environment. http://www.artsciencecity.com/?lang=en
>
> Any way ; lets back to the discussion that started as a detour in the
> Light is
> my business discussion- how should sound and music be used in
> an integrated way to augment the effectiveness of science communication
> films
>
> Roger Malina
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest
> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Why do Science Films often have such terrible use of music or sound

Roger,

Music by dead composers is often used because it is free of
charge, in the "public domain", whereas for new creations or
recent compositions you have to pay the composers.

You ask : "how should sound and music be used in
an integrated way to augment the effectiveness of science
communication films"

I don't know. I am neither a science communication officer
nor an artist.
But I have an example of a wonderful artwork done by using
space data for both it's visual and audio components, and
actually ... it is dealing with the Sun.

It is Semiconductor famous and fabulous "Brilliant
Noise"http://semiconductorfilms.com/art/brilliant-noise/

Oh, and yes, it is in black and white, no fancy colors to
make it (supposedly) more dramatic ...


Annick





2015-04-13 5:13 GMT+02:00 roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>:

> Yasminers
>
> As Guillermo Munoz mentioned our discussion Light is my Business
> got re routed when as he says:
>
> "Finally, our discussion has a "dramatic" ending. No because any
> disturbance, just because a "naive" film, from Sun images accompanied with
> music, changes our questions from the interaction between light and sound
> in science popularization films."
>
> The film in question was the NASA Solar Dynamics Observatory in the video
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSVv40M2aks#t=79
>
> I made the rash statement that the video which had impressive scientific
> images was ruined, in my opinion by cliched re use of music by dead
> composers ( which maybe were cheap to get rights to)
>
> I was just thinking aloud that : why is it that science agencies would
> spend large
> amounts of money taking the data and making a video accessible
> to the public, but not invest in state of the art sound or music that
> would augment
> the images through a multi modal approach- why not innovative combinations
> of video and sound to create really effective science engagement
>
> a number of you didnt agree with this , and we put on hold
> some of your posts which we will start re releasing
>
> This is all a good example of how on line discussions are a poor
> substitute for face to face dialogue ! Guillermo is planning a meeting
> of Yasminers
> at the The 2nd Art, Science, City International Conference 201 in
> Valencia this coming October 22/23
> which will bring the art, science and technology community together
> around problematics
> of the build urban environment. http://www.artsciencecity.com/?lang=en
>
> Any way ; lets back to the discussion that started as a detour in the
> Light is
> my business discussion- how should sound and music be used in
> an integrated way to augment the effectiveness of science communication
> films
>
> Roger Malina
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest
> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>
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[Yasmin_discussions] Why do Science Films often have such terrible use of music or sound

Dear Roger,

It's probably a mundane answer, but my suspicion is that the core issue is the cost of good sound and music. Hollywood films have good music because ticket sales support the costs of a high quality production. In my note on the subject of music, I mentioned some of the great Hollywood composers whose scores accompany serious films — Aaron Copeland and Cyril Mockridge long ago, Nino Rota, James Newton Howard, Randy Edelman and Trevor Jones today. If you think of great films with memorable scores such as Lawrence of Arabia or Spartacus, or the typical genre scores of outstanding Westerns such as The Magnificent Seven or Tombstone, you are listening to skilled composers writing full orchestral music for studio production. The sound alone of such a film probably runs higher than the total cost of a science film. This is even the case for a well-scored action movie such as The Expendables, where dramatic music enhances and works as reinforcement and counterpoint to the narrative action.

Ticket sales, commercial tie-ins, DVD sales, multiple market sales, HBO and Netflix after cinema, and a dozen other revenue sources give these kinds of films revenue that no science film can hope to achieve. Revenue supports total budget, and budget supports a proper sound environment.

It is extremely difficult to integrate good sound into a science documentary. Even the production staff on such a film generally lacks the experience of coordinating a major full-budget production. The people with full production experience who work in Hollywood are professionals — you wouldn't ask them to move into a completely different field, and science films are a completely different field. For that matter, most people who love Hollywood productions and earn a Hollywood salary wouldn't likely want to work on science films for the available salaries.

Given the economics of science films, I'd argue that skilled sound coordination of excellent music available for reasonable rights fees is probably the best one can hope for.

It's a matter of choices.

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to get into a very lucrative business as partner to a relative who had become a very successful investing in California real estate. He wanted help from an intelligent person he could trust. He made millions back in the 1980s when a million dollars was worth more than it is now, and I knew I would become quite wealthy. I was grateful for the offer but I declined. I've done well in a life I love: I own a small house in a small city in Sweden; I have a safe and solid used Volvo instead of a BMW; I work with ideas and art instead of money — and I enjoy my work. Different industries support different lifestyles and they take different skills.

If someone has a way to get good original music for science films, I'd be interested to hear it. On the kinds of budgets available, my guess is that the available original music is bad original music, amateur composition, or student music. None of this is better than good music at reasonable fees.

Even at that, it's clear that few science films are willing to engage competent music coordinators. Low budgets and lack of thought answer your question. But thinking this through also requires reasonable choices. You can't hire a full studio orchestra and get a film-length score for the budget of a science film. I don't think this is bad. I think it is the way it is — I'm happy with my Volvo and my small house by the Baltic.

Yours,

Ken

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia

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> On 2015Apr13, at 11:13, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

—snip—

> Any way ; lets back to the discussion that started as a detour in the Light is
> my business discussion- how should sound and music be used in
> an integrated way to augment the effectiveness of science communication films

—snip—

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