[Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism (was ...)

Francesco wrote:

"I agree with you that we need an urgent meditation on human becoming
multiple-selves. ... You said what is 'centrism', and you're right is
very anthropo-centric, I would say colonialist on regard of otherness,
but what is "centrism"? It is a culturally driven outlook, a
vanishing point through which we retrieved a position in a realm
without 'telos', the question is if today after the post-psychology,
post-sociology, the idea of the ecology of the mind, centrism is still
a valid position, or if we have to retrieve from the past the
polytheistic position in order to set our self in this new realm."

In my view, no religions or gods or combination of religions or gods
can logically help humanity survive a Technological Singularity.
(Even if a singularity comes in surges and spirts rather than in one
fell swoop (which, to contrasting to Kurzweil, I doubt it will.)
Here, polytheism could be psychologically helpful for those resisting
evolutionary change, but probably only as a mythic ghost if
superintelligent life forms arise.

"For that reason there is a political issue on this discussion: 'In a
world where religious dogma and political hegemony erupt a sense of
unity, connectives, and peace - a focus on Eco-centrism could be a
meaningful antidote.' Well we could say a necessary antidote, and it
seems to me that we have to start from the animal kingdom reaching the
P. Singer proposal to extend the debate on Human Rights not only at
all humankind but to all living beings."

Yes, you are correct, it ought to be "necessary". Singer has many
valid arguments, especially concerning animal rights, but I am not
convinced that we have the knowledge to understand how animals might
want to be cognitively enhanced, which is an issue on the table and
one which Singer is addressing. For example, as humans enhance (with
AGI, for example); will we want our beloved animal companions to also
enhance? How much intelligence will actually be beneficial to a dog,
horse or pig? Will these species actually want more cognitive
abilities? What about sensory abilities? How many molecules can a
dog sniff that will actually bring about happiness (in that happiness
is a fundamental goal of well-being).

"Your human enhancement engages immersivity, simulations, experience
design within the field of media arts and the areas of brain-share,
and consciousness expansion, and brain emulation within the fields of
cognitive and neuroscience and the field of artificial intelligence.
This will reset the narcissism but also the basic 'libido' (psychic
energy) and also the concept of Love. That you define "love" a strong
positive emotion and pleasure, love as 'well-being'. Going directly
into the idea of love you got the point of the installations."

"Facing the monotheistic, ego driven vision of the realm, is everyday
more urgent to became capable to open us to a plurality of worlds in
which humankind is hosted, I would quote Roy Ascott:"

"*Every fibre, every node, every server on the Net is a part of me.
**It's a phase space I'm in, a sort of tele-potentiality. As I
interact with the Net, I reconfigure myself. My net-extent defines me,
just as my body defined me in the old biological culture.I am
weightless and dimensionless in any exact sense. I am the reach of my
connectivity.*"

Ascott's vision is poetic and viable. But we also need to realize
that privacy as well as individually is not such a bad thing. Our
current philosophy about connectivity, transparency, collective
commons, fluidity, etc. is beautiful and I have subscribed to this set
of behaviors for quite some time. Nevertheless, I have always been
able to shut my door, or sit quietly alone in my rose garden without
interruption. I value my own individualized experiences because I
enjoy being with me, and I consider this a viable sign of well-being.
Equally, I find a desire for open communication and shared realities
of multiples as viable signs of well-being. In light of this, I think
it cannot be one or the other, but diversity of existences.

"As you wrote Natasha: Toward Plurality and Plasticity! That we can
change in toward polytheistic and dynamic vision of the world."

"Facing the enhanced realm of the Net, we need to reconfigure
ourselves, from one side negotiating a new position in the Nature,
extending the XV century debate on native indios to animal and plants,
from another side extending in a radical way the P. Singer proposal,
developing the technoetic starting building a cyber-ethic (is a fact
that today's only living philosophy is the ethic one)"

The idea of "Morphological Freedom" (More 1997; Sandberg 2009)
includes all sentient life forms. Nevertheless, it might be
advantageous to amend this project to include all life forms. It is
actually absurd and undignified to assign intelligence as a precursor
of a life form's value or worth. Plants are powerful agents of life
(and death).

"The question is if is correct the idea of the radicalisation of the
Singer proposal, we have to extend the human rights to nature and to
technology?"

Yes, but not human rights. A different set of rights that humans can
author, but which are not based on a human-centric judgment of what
rights are or are not appropriate. This is nearly an impossible task,
but many humans have an ability to deeply understand non-human animals
and plants. Unfortunately, other humans think they do, but they are
simply anthropomorphizing.

Natasha

----- End forwarded message -----

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[Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism (was ...)

Francesco wrote:

"I agree with you that we need an urgent meditation on human becoming
multiple-selves. ... You said what is 'centrism', and you're right is
very anthropo-centric, I would say colonialist on regard of otherness,
but what is "centrism"? It is a culturally driven outlook, a
vanishing point through which we retrieved a position in a realm
without 'telos', the question is if today after the post-psychology,
post-sociology, the idea of the ecology of the mind, centrism is still
a valid position, or if we have to retrieve from the past the
polytheistic position in order to set our self in this new realm."

In my view, no religions or gods or combination of religions or gods
can logically help humanity survive a Technological Singularity.
(Even if a singularity comes in surges and spirts rather than in one
fell swoop (which, to contrasting to Kurzweil, I doubt it will.)
Here, polytheism could be psychologically helpful for those resisting
evolutionary change, but probably only as a mythic ghost if
superintelligent life forms arise.

"For that reason there is a political issue on this discussion: 'In a
world where religious dogma and political hegemony erupt a sense of
unity, connectives, and peace - a focus on Eco-centrism could be a
meaningful antidote.' Well we could say a necessary antidote, and it
seems to me that we have to start from the animal kingdom reaching the
P. Singer proposal to extend the debate on Human Rights not only at
all humankind but to all living beings."

Yes, you are correct, it ought to be "necessary". Singer has many
valid arguments, especially concerning animal rights, but I am not
convinced that we have the knowledge to understand how animals might
want to be cognitively enhanced, which is an issue on the table and
one which Singer is addressing. For example, as humans enhance (with
AGI, for example); will we want our beloved animal companions to also
enhance? How much intelligence will actually be beneficial to a dog,
horse or pig? Will these species actually want more cognitive
abilities? What about sensory abilities? How many molecules can a
dog sniff that will actually bring about happiness (in that happiness
is a fundamental goal of well-being).

"Your human enhancement engages immersivity, simulations, experience
design within the field of media arts and the areas of brain-share,
and consciousness expansion, and brain emulation within the fields of
cognitive and neuroscience and the field of artificial intelligence.
This will reset the narcissism but also the basic 'libido' (psychic
energy) and also the concept of Love. That you define "love" a strong
positive emotion and pleasure, love as 'well-being'. Going directly
into the idea of love you got the point of the installations."

"Facing the monotheistic, ego driven vision of the realm, is everyday
more urgent to became capable to open us to a plurality of worlds in
which humankind is hosted, I would quote Roy Ascott:"

"*Every fibre, every node, every server on the Net is a part of me.
**It's a phase space I'm in, a sort of tele-potentiality. As I
interact with the Net, I reconfigure myself. My net-extent defines me,
just as my body defined me in the old biological culture.I am
weightless and dimensionless in any exact sense. I am the reach of my
connectivity.*"

Ascott's vision is poetic and viable. But we also need to realize
that privacy as well as individually is not such a bad thing. Our
current philosophy about connectivity, transparency, collective
commons, fluidity, etc. is beautiful and I have subscribed to this set
of behaviors for quite some time. Nevertheless, I have always been
able to shut my door, or sit quietly alone in my rose garden without
interruption. I value my own individualized experiences because I
enjoy being with me, and I consider this a viable sign of well-being.
Equally, I find a desire for open communication and shared realities
of multiples as viable signs of well-being. In light of this, I think
it cannot be one or the other, but diversity of existences.

"As you wrote Natasha: Toward Plurality and Plasticity! That we can
change in toward polytheistic and dynamic vision of the world."

"Facing the enhanced realm of the Net, we need to reconfigure
ourselves, from one side negotiating a new position in the Nature,
extending the XV century debate on native indios to animal and plants,
from another side extending in a radical way the P. Singer proposal,
developing the technoetic starting building a cyber-ethic (is a fact
that today's only living philosophy is the ethic one)"

The idea of "Morphological Freedom" (More 1997; Sandberg 2009)
includes all sentient life forms. Nevertheless, it might be
advantageous to amend this project to include all life forms. It is
actually absurd and undignified to assign intelligence as a precursor
of a life form's value or worth. Plants are powerful agents of life
(and death).

"The question is if is correct the idea of the radicalisation of the
Singer proposal, we have to extend the human rights to nature and to
technology?"

Yes, but not human rights. A different set of rights that humans can
author, but which are not based on a human-centric judgment of what
rights are or are not appropriate. This is nearly an impossible task,
but many humans have an ability to deeply understand non-human animals
and plants. Unfortunately, other humans think they do, but they are
simply anthropomorphizing.

Natasha

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Subject: Re: Multisensory Perception

Dear Raewyn Turner, Richard Newcomb,

I appreciate your email and for pointing to me an "oversight".I will check
it out.

Best,
Jenny Marketou

On 4/26/10 8:31 PM, "Raewyn Turner" <r.turner@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

> Hi all
> sorry to cut across the discussion as this refers to the Yasmin
> discussion Multisensory Perception, in March
>
> Dear Jenny,
> I am writing this postscript to the list regarding your final Post, on
> Yasmin_discussions Multisensory Perception March 28
> In your post you¹ve quoted excerpts from the work of another
> contributor and forgotten to reference the paper from which these
> excerpts came from:
> Performance Research 8(3), pp.104­112, 'Olfactory Interpretations and
> Translations' and you need to send a correction to the list
>
> Raewyn Turner, Richard Newcomb
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism

Dear Francesco,

following Foucault, I strongly believe that the onthological reflection about the rapport between human beings and other living beings (I found very correct you have quoted plants too, animals are just the fifth part of the living kingdom) is derived from some political issues, having origin from the human history.
For what concernes this discourse, the French Revolution has given birth to the concept of citizenship, that still nowadays firmly shapes the identity of the contemporary human being in the western world.
But the citizenship is based on rights and duties.
How to face this problem? If we review our concept of society, establishing a new relation with other living beings, don't you think it will be necessary to figure out a completely new political order?

Amos

----- Messaggio originale -----
Da: "francesco monico" <francescomonico@gmail.com>
A: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Inviato: Lunedì, 26 aprile 2010 10:04:31
Oggetto: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism

Dear Roger,
I agree with you, one of the first move in order to look away from the
narcissistic anthropocentrism is to develop 'cultural studies' of different
species and genus of the nature kingdom. And we could start including the
human obsession for primates as part of the cultural narcissism problematic.

Indeed the contribution of Peter Singer with *'The Great Ape Project -
Equality Beyond Humanity' (1993*) is very relevant, this project aims to
extend the Human Rights to non-human great apes, this idea gave a
substantial aid to every discussion on the end of the anthropocentrism and
on every ideas on Humankind Cultural Narcissism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Ape_Project

The Humankind Cultural Narcissism new concept is rooted in the work of
Richard D. Ryder idea of 'Specism' and in Peter Singer work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_D._Ryder Beyond all influence of loving
nature what is very interesting are the political fall on of all this ideas.
>From this point of view Peter Singer it could be seen as one of the most
interesting exponent of new political concepts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

In fact the practice of privileging humans over other animals, is same as in
the XV century western humankind had the practice of privileging christian
over Indians in central America. The exploitation of natives in the just
discovered countries of central America was justified by a substantial
difference, this difference was advocated in the name of God: because they
weren't christian so they weren't kind of humans. Strongly Narcissistic
indeed.

Monotheistic God could be seen as the center of Human Cultural Narcissism,
and because the Narcissism is the neurosis that impede to love the
otherness, if god is an expression of Cultural Human Narcissism, therefore a
monotheistic God is not able to develop love.

*****

But there is another genus and phylum and family the one of the plants, that
is far way from our comprehension of the otherness. And is for this radical
distance the reason I use plants instead animals in my artworks. The idea we
should look at plants and their functioning as a useful way of re-thinking
on us, looks like the proposal of Roberto Marchesini's Zooanthropology,
http://www.robertomarchesini.com/zoo_fr.htm (unfortunately is in
Italian/Spanish) that bring back on the stage the animal kingdom.

The central topic is the idea to find from different way to be a useful way
to be and to see the world. It seems an opennes of the book you quote by
Karl J. Niklas : Plant Allometry (1994) 'it would be useful to pay more
theoretical, artistic, and scientific attention to the way otherness (algae,
fungus, plants, animals..) grow and reproduce, use resources and dispose of
waste over space, time and scale.' Many aspects of our social behaviour are
closer to plant strategies, as animals, as all living beings, but In my
artwork I'm enhancing the topic to all things: as today we are facing a very
sophisticated technology, we are facing the theory of the Singularity, so
may we have to extend this new vision from plants/animals to technologies,
in a very open eco-logic approach.

In this direction there are interesting topic and term in the Shintoist
culture that could be defined as "politeistic naturalism" and taht consider
stones as living beings. Very radical.

francesco

2010/4/21 roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>

> Francesco
>
> Your example about Toxoplasma Gondii is about the importance of parasitic
> protozoa and I think is one good place to re think about
> anthropocentrism as most
> of the life forms on this planet are not primates or in close systems
> interaction
> with primates. Yet we are obsessed by primates as part of the cultural
> narcissism
> you describe.
>
> Ramon Guardans, in his essay " On Plant Physics: the silent power of
> waiting"
> argues that we should look at plants and their functioning as a useful
> way of re-thinking
>
> http://www.imera.fr/images/stories/PDF/ramon_guardans.pdf
>
> This paper is based on a remarkable book by Karl J. Niklas : Plant
> Allometry.
> The Scaling of Form and Process (U Chicago Press 1994)
> and introduces some of it to the reader. This paper argues that it
> would be useful to pay
> more theoretical, artistic, and scientific
> attention to the way plants grow and reproduce, use resources and
> dispose of waste over space,
> time and scale. We shal
> l argue that many aspects of our social behaviour are closer to plant
> strategies over
> the long range rather than shaped by
> urgencies of ambitious predators , these exist but are just a part of
> how change
> in living lineages come about. Other forms
> of interaction are relevant too.
> Summarising and commenting on Niklas's work, we draw attention to some
> distinctive
> aspects of the physics and biology
> of plants, regretting implicitly that not more of this work is in
> progress and accessible
> when considering long - term life processes
> The consideration of these issues is also applied to comment on the praise
> Charles Darwin deserves and how the poor man
> has been abused.
>
>
> Ramon, are you following this discussion ? maybe you would like to comment
> !!
>
> Roger
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism

Dear Pier,
as you noticed "anthropocentrism" is part of a basic human ideo-logic, as a
cog of the mechanism of a human driven logic.

I think that this vision is not merely a product of the invention of
science, but it arise from more deep reasons, it cames from the necessity to
put a reason, based not on experience but on revelation, in the centre of
our human logic. In order to justify what is not explicable or what is not
understandable, we revealed the supremacy-divinity, of the humankind that
became, after Plato, a sort of methapyisic idea, and that became with
Plotino the foundation of all the western methaphysics. And it would be th
case that Heidegger was rights with is idea that "all western methaphisic,
based on the Plotinic idea, is wrong".

My proposal is that Anthropocentrism, is a metaphysically driven concept,
not based in any experience of the Nature, but invented by man in order to
exploit love and the sense of the world.

So you're right questioning if this all imply that anthropocentrism is
fading out? Or, better, does it imply it will/can disappear? What is to
probe is if it would be possible to shift our anthropocentrism to
Eco-centrism, maybe we have to disappear in order to change experience and
reappearing in a more balanced position.

What do you think?

francesco

2010/4/23 Pier Luigi Capucci <plc@noemalab.org>

> hello,
>
> sorry Francesco, Roger and all for joining this discussion late. It is
> indeed a very intriguing topic, and, as Natasha noted, a multidimensional
> one.
>
> Indeed the idea of "anthropocentrism" as some kind of ideology which puts
> humankind at the center of the known world has been historically put in
> discussion in a long path. 2009 was both the 400 anniversary of the
> telescope's invention by Galileo and the 150 anniversary of the publication
> of Darwin's "Origin of the Species" (and the 200centenary of his birth).
> [BTW 2009 was the centenary anniversary of the Futurism avantgarde too, with
> the central position their time's technologies had in their poetics, but
> we'd go too far]
>
> With his invention Galileo gave an extraordinary push to the sky's
> observation, to the diffusion of the heliocentric system and of Copernicus'
> theories, also through the "scientific method" (which is often called
> "Galilean method"). Copernicus dethroned the humankind from his central
> position in the Universe, but, although dislocated in a remote zone the
> humankind remained the chosen creature, the first one, the highest among the
> living beings on the Earth. Darwin dethroned the humankind from his
> privileged position. Like all the living beings, humankind is the result of
> an extremely long process, of a "design without a designer". All the living
> beings, humankind included, were not created as they are and are not steady
> and unchangeable, but evolved starting about 3,8 billion years ago from a
> remote group of primeval common organisms.
>
> Hence all the living organisms are related, and each individual, whatever
> species it belongs, is unique but it is pervaded by the matter and the
> processes which compose all the other living beings. The fundamental
> processes and the control mechanisms are essentially the same in all
> species; in our genes we have the genes of many other species, even of
> viruses. And the difficulties and discussions in the science domain on the
> definition of "species" and on the methodology to set the differences among
> the species emphasize this "unitarity".
>
> It seems today the humankind is reaching another topic point in this
> relativization path, since he has the chance to use sciences and
> technologies to hugely modify some issues which deeply define the "human
> essence", which becomes basically uncertain. But does this all imply that
> anthropocentrism is fading out? Or, better, does it imply it will/can
> disappear?
>
> More after.
>
> Pier Luigi
>
> --
> Pier Luigi Capucci
> e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
> web: http://www.noemalab.org/plc/plc.html
> skype: plcapucci
>
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism (Was: The newconcept of HumankindCulturalNarcissism from francesco monico)

Dear Natasha,
I agree with you that we need an urgent meditation on human becoming
multiple-selves.

You said what is 'centrism', and you're right is very anthropo-centric, I
would say colonialist on regard of otherness, but what is "centrism"? It is
a culturally driven outlook, a vanishing point through which we retrieved a
position in a realm without 'telos', the question is if today after the
post-psychology, post-sociology, the idea of the ecology of the mind,
centrism is still a valid position, or if we have to retrieve from the past
the polytheistic position in order to set our self in this new realm.

For that reason there is a political issue on this discussion: "In a world
where religious dogma and political hegemony erupt a sense of unity,
connectives, and peace - a focus on Eco-centrism could be a meaningful
antidote." Well we could say a necessary antidote, and it seems to me that
we have to start from the animal kingdom reaching the P. Singer proposal to
extend the debate on Human Rights not only at all humankind but to all
living beings.

Your human enhancement engages immersivity, simulations, experience design
within the field of media arts and the areas of brain-share, and
consciousness expansion, and brain emulation within the fields of cognitive
and neuroscience and the field of artificial intelligence. This will reset
the narcissism but also the basic 'libido' (psychic energy) and also the
concept of Love. That you define "love" a strong positive emotion and
pleasure, love as "well-being". Going directly into the idea of love you got
the point of the installations.

Facing the monotheistic, ego driven vision of the realm, is everyday more
urgent to became capable to open us to a plurality of worlds in which
humankind is hosted, I would quote Roy Ascott:

*Every fibre, every node, every server on the Net is a part of me. **It's a
phase space I'm in, a sort of tele-potentiality. As I interact with the Net,
I reconfigure myself. My net-extent defines me, just as my body defined me
in the old biological culture.I am weightless and dimensionless in any exact
sense. I am the reach of my connectivity.*

As you wrote Natasha: Toward Plurality and Plasticity! That we can change in
Toward polytheistic and dynamic vision of the world.

Facing the enhanced realm of the Net, we need to reconfigure ourselves, from
one side negotiating a new position in the Nature, extending the XV century
debate on native indios to animal and plants, from another side extending in
a radical way the P. Singer proposal, developing the technoetic starting
building a cyber-ethic (is a fact that today's only living philosophy is the
ethic one)

The question is if is correct the idea of the radicalisation of the Singer
proposal, we have to extend the human rights to nature and to technology?

francesco

2010/4/26 Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>

> I respond by placing Francesco's comments in quotes and my response
> direclty
> below his comments:
>
> "The first topic introduced by you is a question on "what ways can
> narcissism and anthropocentrism be applied to a post or trans or meta
> human?", the idea of the artwork that inspires this subject, *Is There Love
> in The Technoetic
> Narcissus?* is clearly against the -centrism, not matter if is
> anthropically
> or animally or technologically driven, from the point of view of the
> humankind we have an urgence to shift from ego-centrism to *eco*-centrism.
> This term is a good start."
>
> Agreed. It would be quite odd to have a single-self narcissism when the
> future human is becoming multiple-selves. I view the issues by framing it
> as "social ecology", and I think that your term "eco-centrism" is in
> keeping
> with this sentiment. But what is "centrism"? It is a political
> philosophical outlook which avoids extremism, and this is a very good
> thing.
> So good, in fact - that it warrants plenty of love.*
>
> In a world where religious dogma and political hegemony erupt a sense of
> unity, connectives, and peace - a focus on eco-centrism could be a
> meaningful antidote.
>
>
> "The term was adopted in Italy by Wu Ming 1 a very well known writer (one
> of
> a group named Wu Ming) in his latest book *New Italian Epic *(Einaudi
> 2009).
> The title is a definition to describe a body of literary works which share
> various stylistic characteristics, thematic constants and an underlying
> allegorical nature. The last chapter is about the new definition of
> eco-centrism: humans are not necessary, we are exempedable: there is an
> urgence to shift from ego-centric point of view to eco-centric."
>
> "So the question is if a Human Enhancement is still a form of hyper
> cultural
> narcisism? And if yet: is the telos of our species? In this case we are
> fundamentally a narcisistic specie, so it is not a neurosis but a
> fundamental routine of our gender?"
>
> This is a timely and important question, since we are existing in the
> throws
> of enhancement and there is no turning back (no matter how much Bill Joy or
> Bill McKibben rally around anti-technological advancements. My answer to
> your question is that "Human Enhancement" is beyond a form of hyper
> cultural
> narcissism because narcissism, by its very nature, suggests that a human is
> the center of love and that this love is better than and more important
> than
> any other love. This cannot be scientifically proven and it is not
> psychologically sound. In fact is psychological unsound and resides in
> very
> close proximity to sociopathic behavior. Thus, "Human Enhancement" must be
> located within a "second-order cybernetics" and must include the tenets of
> a
> social ecology because human enhancement suggests a "connective
> intelligence." It further requires, and I do mean "requires" brain
> plasticity. One might ask "How does human enhancement suggest a connective
> intelligence?" And my answer is that human enhancement engages
> immersivity,
> simulations, experience design within the field of media arts and the areas
> of brain-share, and consciousness expansion, and brain emulation within the
> fields of cognitive and neuroscience and the field of artificial
> intelligence. The transdisciplinary of these fields hedge on the element
> of
> "love" (a strong positive emotion and pleasure) and what I consider to be
> love as "well-being". Well-being is quintessential love because in order
> to
> "love" one must not be in pain or anguish and the freedom of physiological
> pain or psychological anger equals a sense of love. (I can explain this
> further, but I don't' want to get too far off track). But to tie it in to
> your artworks, you will notice that with your plants are green, not yellow,
> which suggests they are healthy. When a blooming flower is at its most
> "love" it is ripe and full of all the chemical components of well-being.
>
>
> "We know the misunderstanding on evolution of species as something with a
> direction or a refinement, in order to really understand the work of Darwin
> we have to speak to differentiation by speciation (that not include any
> given refinement);"
>
> Darwin focused on natural selection. Spencer focused on survival of the
> fittest. It seems plausible that Darwin does have an affinity with
> diversity and differentiation.
>
> "We have to consider the idea of *Chance and Necessity* (New York, Alfred
> A.
> Knopf, 1971), a book of Jaques Monod in which the nobel prize retrieve the
> classic old Greek idea (Heraclitus) on the absence of an aim a *telos*."
>
> Even if John Cage's chance pieces of musical performance were actually
> based
> on chance, Cage still needed to have developed his skills in order to
> perform. So, the necessity of having skill allowed for his chance to be
> music and not noise. Further, Cage's chance music was preformed with
> technology.
>
> "The Human Cultural Narcissism could seems a sort of principle that recover
> the Telos."
>
> Yes, understood.
>
> "So we can go directly to your (natasha) last question: *Nevertheless, if
> and when humans diversify further and into a distributed cognition, what
> image will ego see when looking into a mirror? This reflection could
> frighten us deeply or give us immeasurable psychological relief.*"
>
> "Indeed a frightening image if we keep our monotheistic vision of the
> realm,
> but not if we will be capable to open us to new vision of the world were
> the
> world became a plurality of worlds in which humankind is hosted"
>
> Yes, well said Francesco. Precisely.
>
> Toward Plurality and Plasticity!
>
> Natasha
>
>
>
>
> 2010/4/21 Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>
>
> > Thank you Francesco for introducing this topic. There are many angles
> > to look at and routes to take in setting on a trek through the
> > richness of your material. I'd like to start with a first post, and
> > more will follow:
> >
> >
> > In what ways can narcissism and anthropocentrism be applied to a human
> > who is unleashing biology and engaging a bio-synthetic zone of existence?
> > Human
> > enhancement projects have a goal and that is to take biology out of
> > its fixed nature and turn it into a workable palate. Design labs such
> > as H+ Lab, DIYbio and DIYgenomics encourage new theory and practice
> > for those who want to be at the center of their own evolving
> bio-synthetic
> system.
> >
> > Do-it-yourself human enhancement domain has a certain familiarity. For
> > example, the theory and practice of second-order cybernetics placed
> > its formidable authors-Norbert Wiener, Gregory Bateson and Margaret
> > Mead, as a type of subjective elitism, in a claim that the observer
> > must be included in the system in order for the system to exist. If
> > the mind/brain is central, if not pivotal, to a cybernetic system,
> > would this be the epitome of an anthropocentric, self-referential
> > human-machine? Further, in that technology's tools are most often
> > available to those who partake in highly-financed projects, such as
> > the Biological Computer Laboratory at the University of Illinois
> > (1958-1975), and the lab is referred to as the "Nerve" and its
> > founder, Heinz von Foerster as its head, would that not ever so more
> > characterize this milieu as narcissistic at its best?
> >
> > Alternatively, designating one's experience of existence at the locus
> > of one's future experiences makes sense. Who would know how you think
> > and feel better than you?
> >
> > Nevertheless, if and when humans diversify further and into a
> > distributed cognition, what image will ego see when looking into a
> > mirror? This reflection could frighten us deeply or give us
> > immeasurable psychological relief.
> >
> >
> > Natasha Vita-More
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> > In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
> > name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> >
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> > enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked.
> > Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options
> page").
> >
> > HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> > "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> nec metuas nec optas
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--
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[Yasmin_discussions] Subject: Re: Multisensory Perception

Hi all
sorry to cut across the discussion as this refers to the Yasmin
discussion Multisensory Perception, in March

Dear Jenny,
I am writing this postscript to the list regarding your final Post, on
Yasmin_discussions Multisensory Perception March 28
In your post you've quoted excerpts from the work of another
contributor and forgotten to reference the paper from which these
excerpts came from:
Performance Research 8(3), pp.104–112, 'Olfactory Interpretations and
Translations' and you need to send a correction to the list

Raewyn Turner, Richard Newcomb
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[Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism (Was: The newconcept of HumankindCulturalNarcissism from francesco monico)

I respond by placing Francesco's comments in quotes and my response direclty
below his comments:

"The first topic introduced by you is a question on "what ways can
narcissism and anthropocentrism be applied to a post or trans or meta
human?", the idea of the artwork that inspires this subject, *Is There Love
in The Technoetic
Narcissus?* is clearly against the -centrism, not matter if is anthropically
or animally or technologically driven, from the point of view of the
humankind we have an urgence to shift from ego-centrism to *eco*-centrism.
This term is a good start."

Agreed. It would be quite odd to have a single-self narcissism when the
future human is becoming multiple-selves. I view the issues by framing it
as "social ecology", and I think that your term "eco-centrism" is in keeping
with this sentiment. But what is "centrism"? It is a political
philosophical outlook which avoids extremism, and this is a very good thing.
So good, in fact - that it warrants plenty of love.*

In a world where religious dogma and political hegemony erupt a sense of
unity, connectives, and peace - a focus on eco-centrism could be a
meaningful antidote.

"The term was adopted in Italy by Wu Ming 1 a very well known writer (one of
a group named Wu Ming) in his latest book *New Italian Epic *(Einaudi 2009).
The title is a definition to describe a body of literary works which share
various stylistic characteristics, thematic constants and an underlying
allegorical nature. The last chapter is about the new definition of
eco-centrism: humans are not necessary, we are exempedable: there is an
urgence to shift from ego-centric point of view to eco-centric."

"So the question is if a Human Enhancement is still a form of hyper cultural
narcisism? And if yet: is the telos of our species? In this case we are
fundamentally a narcisistic specie, so it is not a neurosis but a
fundamental routine of our gender?"

This is a timely and important question, since we are existing in the throws
of enhancement and there is no turning back (no matter how much Bill Joy or
Bill McKibben rally around anti-technological advancements. My answer to
your question is that "Human Enhancement" is beyond a form of hyper cultural
narcissism because narcissism, by its very nature, suggests that a human is
the center of love and that this love is better than and more important than
any other love. This cannot be scientifically proven and it is not
psychologically sound. In fact is psychological unsound and resides in very
close proximity to sociopathic behavior. Thus, "Human Enhancement" must be
located within a "second-order cybernetics" and must include the tenets of a
social ecology because human enhancement suggests a "connective
intelligence." It further requires, and I do mean "requires" brain
plasticity. One might ask "How does human enhancement suggest a connective
intelligence?" And my answer is that human enhancement engages immersivity,
simulations, experience design within the field of media arts and the areas
of brain-share, and consciousness expansion, and brain emulation within the
fields of cognitive and neuroscience and the field of artificial
intelligence. The transdisciplinary of these fields hedge on the element of
"love" (a strong positive emotion and pleasure) and what I consider to be
love as "well-being". Well-being is quintessential love because in order to
"love" one must not be in pain or anguish and the freedom of physiological
pain or psychological anger equals a sense of love. (I can explain this
further, but I don't' want to get too far off track). But to tie it in to
your artworks, you will notice that with your plants are green, not yellow,
which suggests they are healthy. When a blooming flower is at its most
"love" it is ripe and full of all the chemical components of well-being.

"We know the misunderstanding on evolution of species as something with a
direction or a refinement, in order to really understand the work of Darwin
we have to speak to differentiation by speciation (that not include any
given refinement);"

Darwin focused on natural selection. Spencer focused on survival of the
fittest. It seems plausible that Darwin does have an affinity with
diversity and differentiation.

"We have to consider the idea of *Chance and Necessity* (New York, Alfred A.
Knopf, 1971), a book of Jaques Monod in which the nobel prize retrieve the
classic old Greek idea (Heraclitus) on the absence of an aim a *telos*."

Even if John Cage's chance pieces of musical performance were actually based
on chance, Cage still needed to have developed his skills in order to
perform. So, the necessity of having skill allowed for his chance to be
music and not noise. Further, Cage's chance music was preformed with
technology.

"The Human Cultural Narcissism could seems a sort of principle that recover
the Telos."

Yes, understood.

"So we can go directly to your (natasha) last question: *Nevertheless, if
and when humans diversify further and into a distributed cognition, what
image will ego see when looking into a mirror? This reflection could
frighten us deeply or give us immeasurable psychological relief.*"

"Indeed a frightening image if we keep our monotheistic vision of the realm,
but not if we will be capable to open us to new vision of the world were the
world became a plurality of worlds in which humankind is hosted"

Yes, well said Francesco. Precisely.

Toward Plurality and Plasticity!

Natasha

2010/4/21 Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>

> Thank you Francesco for introducing this topic. There are many angles
> to look at and routes to take in setting on a trek through the
> richness of your material. I'd like to start with a first post, and
> more will follow:
>
>
> In what ways can narcissism and anthropocentrism be applied to a human
> who is unleashing biology and engaging a bio-synthetic zone of existence?
> Human
> enhancement projects have a goal and that is to take biology out of
> its fixed nature and turn it into a workable palate. Design labs such
> as H+ Lab, DIYbio and DIYgenomics encourage new theory and practice
> for those who want to be at the center of their own evolving bio-synthetic
system.
>
> Do-it-yourself human enhancement domain has a certain familiarity. For
> example, the theory and practice of second-order cybernetics placed
> its formidable authors-Norbert Wiener, Gregory Bateson and Margaret
> Mead, as a type of subjective elitism, in a claim that the observer
> must be included in the system in order for the system to exist. If
> the mind/brain is central, if not pivotal, to a cybernetic system,
> would this be the epitome of an anthropocentric, self-referential
> human-machine? Further, in that technology's tools are most often
> available to those who partake in highly-financed projects, such as
> the Biological Computer Laboratory at the University of Illinois
> (1958-1975), and the lab is referred to as the "Nerve" and its
> founder, Heinz von Foerster as its head, would that not ever so more
> characterize this milieu as narcissistic at its best?
>
> Alternatively, designating one's experience of existence at the locus
> of one's future experiences makes sense. Who would know how you think
> and feel better than you?
>
> Nevertheless, if and when humans diversify further and into a
> distributed cognition, what image will ego see when looking into a
> mirror? This reflection could frighten us deeply or give us
> immeasurable psychological relief.
>
>
> Natasha Vita-More
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
> name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked.
> Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options
page").
>
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism

Dear Roger,
I agree with you, one of the first move in order to look away from the
narcissistic anthropocentrism is to develop 'cultural studies' of different
species and genus of the nature kingdom. And we could start including the
human obsession for primates as part of the cultural narcissism problematic.

Indeed the contribution of Peter Singer with *'The Great Ape Project -
Equality Beyond Humanity' (1993*) is very relevant, this project aims to
extend the Human Rights to non-human great apes, this idea gave a
substantial aid to every discussion on the end of the anthropocentrism and
on every ideas on Humankind Cultural Narcissism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Ape_Project

The Humankind Cultural Narcissism new concept is rooted in the work of
Richard D. Ryder idea of 'Specism' and in Peter Singer work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_D._Ryder Beyond all influence of loving
nature what is very interesting are the political fall on of all this ideas.
>From this point of view Peter Singer it could be seen as one of the most
interesting exponent of new political concepts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

In fact the practice of privileging humans over other animals, is same as in
the XV century western humankind had the practice of privileging christian
over Indians in central America. The exploitation of natives in the just
discovered countries of central America was justified by a substantial
difference, this difference was advocated in the name of God: because they
weren't christian so they weren't kind of humans. Strongly Narcissistic
indeed.

Monotheistic God could be seen as the center of Human Cultural Narcissism,
and because the Narcissism is the neurosis that impede to love the
otherness, if god is an expression of Cultural Human Narcissism, therefore a
monotheistic God is not able to develop love.

*****

But there is another genus and phylum and family the one of the plants, that
is far way from our comprehension of the otherness. And is for this radical
distance the reason I use plants instead animals in my artworks. The idea we
should look at plants and their functioning as a useful way of re-thinking
on us, looks like the proposal of Roberto Marchesini's Zooanthropology,
http://www.robertomarchesini.com/zoo_fr.htm (unfortunately is in
Italian/Spanish) that bring back on the stage the animal kingdom.

The central topic is the idea to find from different way to be a useful way
to be and to see the world. It seems an opennes of the book you quote by
Karl J. Niklas : Plant Allometry (1994) 'it would be useful to pay more
theoretical, artistic, and scientific attention to the way otherness (algae,
fungus, plants, animals..) grow and reproduce, use resources and dispose of
waste over space, time and scale.' Many aspects of our social behaviour are
closer to plant strategies, as animals, as all living beings, but In my
artwork I'm enhancing the topic to all things: as today we are facing a very
sophisticated technology, we are facing the theory of the Singularity, so
may we have to extend this new vision from plants/animals to technologies,
in a very open eco-logic approach.

In this direction there are interesting topic and term in the Shintoist
culture that could be defined as "politeistic naturalism" and taht consider
stones as living beings. Very radical.

francesco

2010/4/21 roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>

> Francesco
>
> Your example about Toxoplasma Gondii is about the importance of parasitic
> protozoa and I think is one good place to re think about
> anthropocentrism as most
> of the life forms on this planet are not primates or in close systems
> interaction
> with primates. Yet we are obsessed by primates as part of the cultural
> narcissism
> you describe.
>
> Ramon Guardans, in his essay " On Plant Physics: the silent power of
> waiting"
> argues that we should look at plants and their functioning as a useful
> way of re-thinking
>
> http://www.imera.fr/images/stories/PDF/ramon_guardans.pdf
>
> This paper is based on a remarkable book by Karl J. Niklas : Plant
> Allometry.
> The Scaling of Form and Process (U Chicago Press 1994)
> and introduces some of it to the reader. This paper argues that it
> would be useful to pay
> more theoretical, artistic, and scientific
> attention to the way plants grow and reproduce, use resources and
> dispose of waste over space,
> time and scale. We shal
> l argue that many aspects of our social behaviour are closer to plant
> strategies over
> the long range rather than shaped by
> urgencies of ambitious predators , these exist but are just a part of
> how change
> in living lineages come about. Other forms
> of interaction are relevant too.
> Summarising and commenting on Niklas's work, we draw attention to some
> distinctive
> aspects of the physics and biology
> of plants, regretting implicitly that not more of this work is in
> progress and accessible
> when considering long - term life processes
> The consideration of these issues is also applied to comment on the praise
> Charles Darwin deserves and how the poor man
> has been abused.
>
>
> Ramon, are you following this discussion ? maybe you would like to comment
> !!
>
> Roger
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism

Dear Amos,
this definition - *other from me, other from my culture, other from my
species* (each of these definitions including and not excluding the other
ones) - could be defined as 'matrioska', is very interesting and reinforce
the idea of an eco-logical approach to reality-nature-subjectivity-culture.
It seems that every approach pointing at a one way vision, as
anthropo(s)-centrism is reductive an not respondent to the sincretic
imperative of our ages.

On regards of this comment and of the Edgar Morin definition we could assume
that the three ways definition-approach, stated by Morin ( La méthode .
L'Humanité de l'humanité, l'identité humaine , 2001): *1. human being, 2.
individual, 3. part of the society* , could be taken in consideration at the
same time as part of same problem: Humankind. So I propose to do not
complexify the problem and to speak about Cultural Narcissism with a
comprehensivistic view that comprehend the three ways stated by Morin.

Indeed is interesting this recurrent of the number three. So human for some
cultural reason....we could look to other different species if there would
be some different recurrent number in their 'culture'...

Francesco

2010/4/23 Amos Bianchi <amos.bianchi@naba.it>

> Dear Francesco,
>
> here below my post.
>
> Amos
>
>
>
> At the opening of yout thread, the narcissism seems to be related to
> humankind but, in a following step, it suddenly becomes part of the essence
> of the individual. I think it could be useful to approach the topic of the
> "anthropos" in three ways, according to what has been stated by Morin ( La
> méthode . L'Humanité de l'humanité, l'identité humaine , 2001): anthropos as
> 1. human being, 2. individual, 3. part of the society. By this complex
> approach the risk to shift from a concept of the anthropos to another one
> (i.e., from humankind to individual), because all the concepts, and the
> derived reciprocal feedbacks, must be taken in consideration at the same
> time. Moreover, even if the language seems to be just a property of the
> anthropos (see Maturana and Varela, Autopoiesis and Cognition , 1991)
> differentiating it from other living beings, the biblical domination of the
> man on the nature is passed over, in order to get a new relation with the
> other that assumes at least three different meanings: other from me, other
> from my culture, other from my species, each of these definitions including
> (and not excluding) the other ones.
>
> ----- Messaggio originale -----
> Da: "roger malina" <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
> A: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Inviato: Mercoledì, 21 aprile 2010 11:05:50
> Oggetto: [Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism
>
> Francesco
>
> Your example about Toxoplasma Gondii is about the importance of parasitic
> protozoa and I think is one good place to re think about
> anthropocentrism as most
> of the life forms on this planet are not primates or in close systems
> interaction
> with primates. Yet we are obsessed by primates as part of the cultural
> narcissism
> you describe.
>
> Ramon Guardans, in his essay " On Plant Physics: the silent power of
> waiting"
> argues that we should look at plants and their functioning as a useful
> way of re-thinking
>
> http://www.imera.fr/images/stories/PDF/ramon_guardans.pdf
>
> This paper is based on a remarkable book by Karl J. Niklas : Plant
> Allometry.
> The Scaling of Form and Process (U Chicago Press 1994)
> and introduces some of it to the reader. This paper argues that it
> would be useful to pay
> more theoretical, artistic, and scientific
> attention to the way plants grow and reproduce, use resources and
> dispose of waste over space,
> time and scale. We shal
> l argue that many aspects of our social behaviour are closer to plant
> strategies over
> the long range rather than shaped by
> urgencies of ambitious predators , these exist but are just a part of
> how change
> in living lineages come about. Other forms
> of interaction are relevant too.
> Summarising and commenting on Niklas's work, we draw attention to some
> distinctive
> aspects of the physics and biology
> of plants, regretting implicitly that not more of this work is in
> progress and accessible
> when considering long - term life processes
> The consideration of these issues is also applied to comment on the praise
> Charles Darwin deserves and how the poor man
> has been abused.
>
>
> Ramon, are you following this discussion ? maybe you would like to comment
> !!
>
> Roger
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] The newconcept of Humankind CulturalNarcissism from francesco monico

Dear Natasha,
the first topic introduced by you is a question on "what ways can narcissism
and anthropocentrism be applied to a post or trans or meta human?", the idea
of the artwork that inspires this subject, *Is There Love in The Technoetic
Narcissus?* is clearly against the -centrism, not matter if is anthropically
or animally or technologically driven, from the point of view of the
humankind we have an urgence to shift from ego-centrism to *eco*-centrism.

This term is a good start.

The term was adopted in Italy by Wu Ming 1 a very well known writer (one of
a group named Wu Ming) in his latest book *New Italian Epic *(Einaudi 2009).
The title is a definition to describe a body of literary works which share
various stylistic characteristics, thematic constants and an underlying
allegorical nature. The last chapter is about the new definition of
eco-centrism: humans are not necessary, we are exempedable: there is an
urgence to shift from ego-centric point of view to eco-centric.

So the question is if a Human Enhancement is still a form of hyper cultural
narcisism? And if yet: is the telos of our species? In this case we are
fundamentally a narcisistic specie, so it is not a neurosis but a
fundamental routine of our gender?

We know the misunderstanding on evolution of species as something with a
direction or a refinement, in order to really understand the work of Darwin
we have to speak to differentiation by speciation (that not include any
given refinement);

We have to consider the idea of *Chance and Necessity* (New York, Alfred A.
Knopf, 1971), a book of Jaques Monod in which the nobel prize retrieve the
classic old Greek idea (Heraclitus) on the absence of an aim a *telos*.

The Human Cultural Narcissism could seems a sort of principle that recover
the Telos.

So we can go directly to your (natasha) last question: *Nevertheless, if and
when humans diversify further and into a distributed cognition, what image
will ego see when looking into a mirror? This reflection could frighten us
deeply or give us immeasurable psychological
relief.*

Indeed a frightening image if we keep our monotheistic vision of the realm,
but not if we will be capable to open us to new vision of the world were the
world became a plurality of worlds in which humankind is hosted

francesco

2010/4/21 Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>

> Thank you Francesco for introducing this topic. There are many angles to
> look at and routes to take in setting on a trek through the richness of
> your
> material. I'd like to start with a first post, and more will follow:
>
>
> In what ways can narcissism and anthropocentrism be applied to a human who
> is unleashing biology and engaging a bio-synthetic zone of existence?
> Human
> enhancement projects have a goal and that is to take biology out of its
> fixed nature and turn it into a workable palate. Design labs such as H+
> Lab, DIYbio and DIYgenomics encourage new theory and practice for those who
> want to be at the center of their own evolving bio-synthetic system.
>
> Do-it-yourself human enhancement domain has a certain familiarity. For
> example, the theory and practice of second-order cybernetics placed its
> formidable authors-Norbert Wiener, Gregory Bateson and Margaret Mead, as a
> type of subjective elitism, in a claim that the observer must be included
> in
> the system in order for the system to exist. If the mind/brain is central,
> if not pivotal, to a cybernetic system, would this be the epitome of an
> anthropocentric, self-referential human-machine? Further, in that
> technology's tools are most often available to those who partake in
> highly-financed projects, such as the Biological Computer Laboratory at the
> University of Illinois (1958-1975), and the lab is referred to as the
> "Nerve" and its founder, Heinz von Foerster as its head, would that not
> ever
> so more characterize this milieu as narcissistic at its best?
>
> Alternatively, designating one's experience of existence at the locus of
> one's future experiences makes sense. Who would know how you think and
> feel
> better than you?
>
> Nevertheless, if and when humans diversify further and into a distributed
> cognition, what image will ego see when looking into a mirror? This
> reflection could frighten us deeply or give us immeasurable psychological
> relief.
>
>
> Natasha Vita-More
>
>
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[Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism

Amos

I would like to pick on your comment about the three ways that one
'self-references'

"I think it could be useful to approach the topic of the "anthropos"
in three ways,
according to what has been stated by Morin ( La méthode . L'Humanité
de l'humanité, l'identité humaine , 2001):

Anthropos as 1. human being, 2. individual, 3. part of the society.

First the reference to the work of Edgar Morin is very relevant and it
would be interesting
to unpack how his ideas are relevant to the art/science/discussion
particularly because
it brings in the issue of systems theory and cybernetics. With a
systems or network theory,
the individual is not the locus of action but the network structure,
and it is impossible to
consider the individual independent of the network it is part of. Can
networks be narcissistic?

The definition of an individual is a difficult concept, because we associate
the individual with personhood and identity. There was an interesting
panel at the
recent meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science which
a paper by philosopher Thomas White which had the provocative title "
Dolphins as non-human persons"/
That wording in itself is a great example of anthropocentric narcissism !!

http://aaas.confex.com/aaas/2010/webprogram/Session1526.html

Diana Weisse presented a paper on self awareness in Dolphins and Lori
White discussed the various ways that the neurobiology of dolphins differs
from human neurobiology.

Tied to the concept of individuals is the idea that individuals are different
from each other, and reflecting their personal history.It doesnt make
a lot of sense
to talk about cells as individuals or even galaxies.

The speakers at the AAAS panel pointed out that Dolphins "pass' many of the
tests that we associated with "individual personhood":
=They are alive
=Aware of their environment
=Have emotions
=have personalitites
=exhibit self control
=treat others appropriately, even ethically
=recognise themselves in a mirror
= pass the theory of mind test and interpret what others are thinking

For what its worth dolphin minds are bigger (1600 grams) than human
brains( 1300 grams)
=
There is a lot of interest in the art/science artworld these days on
developing artistic
practice with other life forms in various kinds of ways. And artmaking
is not restricted
to humans but is also engaged by other species

see for instance the work of Hollis Taylor

Hollis TAYLOR
Violoniste, compositrice et ornithologue américaine/australienne.
Music has long been situated between nature and technology but has
been expanding in both directions. Its edges are now blurred and
contested as never before. When sonographic analysis of birdsong
recordings became possible, biologists apprehended the subject. My
dissertation, Towards a Species Songbook: Illuminating the Song of the
Australian Pied Butcherbird (Cracticus nigrogularis), links a
musician's trained ear and traditional notation with the latest
developments in neuroscience, ornithology, field recording, and
sonography. The research also addresses another ongoing problem within
the discipline: definitions of music and culture often assume a
strictly human agency.
www.HollisTaylor.com

or Rachel Mayeri who has been working in the area of Primate Cinema:
http://www.soft-science.org/mayeri.html

Primate Cinema:
How to Act like An Animal
Sign up for a free workshop at Interspecies at A Foundation London on
3 October 2009
Single Channel Splitscreen, Mini-DV, 6 minutes, 2008
How to Act like an Animal

Superhuman strength, superhuman smell, hunting, nesting, snacking all
day, not having to clean up after yourself, swinging through the air
on branches, being grabby, not having to form sentences, screeching,
barking, hooting, whimpering, shit-flinging, public nudity, sex,
grooming, being groomed, wrestling, eating with your hands, eating
without hands, biting others, suckling.

Acting like an animal seems like a lot of fun. But we know from nature
documentaries that it is rough out there (it's a jungle). There are
other animals who want to kill us. There's no guarantee of finding
enough food in a day. There are struggles for power within our own
family. There's no semblance of a justice system or shelter from the
cold or heat. No one will have a barbeque, because animals are
notoriously bad planners nor can they grill.

Both Holls Taylor and Rachel Mayeri work with "individual" animals -
who presembaly are as narcissistic
and species-centric as we are !!

there are artists working i art science practice in each of the three
levels that Amos gives:

Anthropos as 1. human being, 2. individual, 3. part of the society.

roger

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Amos Bianchi <amos.bianchi@naba.it>
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>

Dear Francesco,

here below my post.

Amos

At the opening of yout thread, the narcissism seems to be related to
humankind but, in a following step, it suddenly becomes part of the
essence of the individual. I think it could be useful to approach the
topic of the "anthropos" in three ways, according to what has been
stated by Morin ( La méthode . L'Humanité de l'humanité, l'identité
humaine , 2001): anthropos as 1. human being, 2. individual, 3. part
of the society. By this complex approach the risk to shift from a
concept of the anthropos to another one (i.e., from humankind to
individual), because all the concepts, and the derived reciprocal
feedbacks, must be taken in consideration at the same time. Moreover,
even if the language seems to be just a property of the anthropos (see
Maturana and Varela, Autopoiesis and Cognition , 1991) differentiating
it from other living beings, the biblical domination of the man on the
nature is passed over, in order to get a new relation with the other
that assumes at least three different meanings: other from me, other
from my culture, other from my species, each of these definitions
including (and not excluding) the other ones.

--

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[Yasmin_discussions] Narcissism and Anthropocentrism

hello,

sorry Francesco, Roger and all for joining this discussion late. It is indeed a very intriguing topic, and, as Natasha noted, a multidimensional one.

Indeed the idea of "anthropocentrism" as some kind of ideology which puts humankind at the center of the known world has been historically put in discussion in a long path. 2009 was both the 400 anniversary of the telescope's invention by Galileo and the 150 anniversary of the publication of Darwin's "Origin of the Species" (and the 200centenary of his birth). [BTW 2009 was the centenary anniversary of the Futurism avantgarde too, with the central position their time's technologies had in their poetics, but we'd go too far]

With his invention Galileo gave an extraordinary push to the sky's observation, to the diffusion of the heliocentric system and of Copernicus' theories, also through the "scientific method" (which is often called "Galilean method"). Copernicus dethroned the humankind from his central position in the Universe, but, although dislocated in a remote zone the humankind remained the chosen creature, the first one, the highest among the living beings on the Earth. Darwin dethroned the humankind from his privileged position. Like all the living beings, humankind is the result of an extremely long process, of a "design without a designer". All the living beings, humankind included, were not created as they are and are not steady and unchangeable, but evolved starting about 3,8 billion years ago from a remote group of primeval common organisms.

Hence all the living organisms are related, and each individual, whatever species it belongs, is unique but it is pervaded by the matter and the processes which compose all the other living beings. The fundamental processes and the control mechanisms are essentially the same in all species; in our genes we have the genes of many other species, even of viruses. And the difficulties and discussions in the science domain on the definition of "species" and on the methodology to set the differences among the species emphasize this "unitarity".

It seems today the humankind is reaching another topic point in this relativization path, since he has the chance to use sciences and technologies to hugely modify some issues which deeply define the "human essence", which becomes basically uncertain. But does this all imply that anthropocentrism is fading out? Or, better, does it imply it will/can disappear?

More after.

Pier Luigi

--
Pier Luigi Capucci
e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
web: http://www.noemalab.org/plc/plc.html
skype: plcapucci

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