How can an artist who is working in the field of robotics, programming HCI,
wearables, etc not ask scientific questions? How can a biological artist?
Let's bring painters into this as well. When an oil painter is producing
his/her materials, should not the materials be able to perform the same
rigorous testing over an over again in addressing whether or not the canvas
is able to appropriate stretch over the frame, or the paint particles,
linseed oil and Damar varnish to produce color and protect color and to
adhere to the canvas and to last more than a few days or months? And
performance? Ought not a dancer be able to perform the same arabesque over
and over gain?
My PhD, while not in the sciences, is based on research which cannot be
proved scientifically because it pertains to NBIC technologies for building
future human enhancements. Nevertheless, I cannot just make it up in my
mind. It has to be based on provable knowledge which is developed in the
fields that I tap into. Not just an Eric Drexler of nanotechnology, for
example, but diverse sources within that domain of nano-knowledge and also
molecular engineering and how rigorous the research is. Yes, this is still
hypothetical because we do not have nanotechnology. The same goes for AGI.
However, another area of my research is biotechnology, and its substance is
provable in certain genetic engineering protocols. The scientific theory
but what can be proved is that the body ages and cells mutate. Without this
particular knowledge, I would not be able to develop a PhD.
Perhaps I am vowing this thread from a different perspective, but it seems
to me that it all depends on what the artist's practice is based on and that
would determine whether or not scientific questions are necessary.
Natasha Vita-More
MSc, MPhil
PhD Researcher, University of Plymouth
Board of Directors: Humanity+
Fellow: Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies
Visiting Scholar: 21st Century Medicine
Advisor: Singularity University
-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
[mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Ernest
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 4:51 PM
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Doing and Studying
InternationalCollaboration in the Sciences, Arts and the Humanities
Hi Stewart
Just to add to that. You describe an old poor model of the scientific PhD. I
know many Americans who did not suffer this. I can also assure you that it
is not the norm in Australia and the UK (where I know
most) where, also, the practice-based art PhD is more common than in the
USA. Artists doing such PhDs certainly ask questions and sometimes draw from
science or technology (or humanities come to that) but have no need to ask
scientific questions. I also know artist who would claim that the PhD
certainly advanced their practice.
Sorry that you have had such a bad experience. I know that it happens.
You may not be sympathetic to the 'scientific' - or rather philosophical -
remark that you can't draw a general conclusion from one or two instances.
Not all PhD programs are so bad!
Best of luck for what follows
Ernest
On 02/06/2010, at 9:44 PM, Simon Biggs wrote:
> Hi Stewart
>
> Sounds like you had a bad experience. Not all PhD's have to be as you
> describe them. Yes, they demand rigour and hard work, but they do not
> have to be the nightmare scenario your describe. As for PhD candidates
> being their supervisor's underlings - that is a perversion of what a
> PhD is about.
> The supervisors' role is to support the candidate with their knowledge
> and resources and ensure they are part of a culture in which they can
> thrive.
> The student's role is to undertake the programme of work they agree
> with their supervisors and engage and contribute to the culture they
> are being offered to be part of. Without the PhD students that culture
> cannot exist.
>
> Note I say supervisors. It is good practice to have a supervisory
> team, with regular external oversight as well, so as to ensure
> transparency and equitability in the research environment. This is now
> the default approach in the UK. Also, we have had artist's practice
> based PhD's for some
> 15 years
> and they continue to grow in popularity and have contributed to a
> paradigm shift in how artists engage academia and research. Artists
> are not just surviving but thriving. Of course, artists do not do
> PhD's to help them be better artists, just as doing a PhD will not
> make you a smarter scientist.
> They do the PhD because they want to engage a certain kind of research
> culture, both during the PhD and afterwards, as they then move through
> the academic jungle.
>
> Institutions are shit and this is what Fuller might have been thinking
> when he cast this aspersion on the PhD. However, not all institutions
> are equally shit. Universities are arguably the least of our worries.
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk simon@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk
> http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of
> art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into
> CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic
> Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice
> http://www.elmcip.net/ Centre for Film, Performance and Media Arts
> http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/film-performance-media-arts
>
>
>
> From: Stewart Dickson <MathArt@emsh.calarts.edu>
> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 09:44:59 -0500
> To: <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Doing and Studying International
> Collaboration in the Sciences, Arts and the Humanities
>
> It causes me considerable pain to write this. These issues are
> still a
> bit emotionally raw for me. I believe in Science as a core
> foundation
> for philosophy.
>
> Richard Buckminster Fuller was fired from his job at Southern Illinois
> University, Carbondale for general misbehavior.
> Among other things to generally enrage enrage his co-workers, he once
> addressed an assembly by saying that anyone who had a Ph.D was
> basically
> full of shit. From my experience in Academia, I have come to agree
> with
> Bucky.
>
> It appears to me that the cost/benefit ratio for a Scientific Ph.D
> degree in the United States is far too high.
> What a Ph.D candidate must endure within a scientific discipline
> consists to a great extent of academic hazing. The degree
> programme is
> too much about eliminating those who cannot endure its demands.
>
> Anyone who has succeeded in obtaining a Scientific Ph.D degree has
> been
> groomed for a particular research track by his or her Advisor. The
> role of a graduate student is basically slave labour for the benefit
> of
> the Advisor. The Post-Doc
> carries this experience and attitude with them through the remainder
> of
> their careers. A research organization, even outside of the
> University
> will develop the same caste structure as the University. It makes
> those working within it profoundly bitter and mean-spirited.
>
> An artist cannot survive within this environment, because his
> technical
> aptitude is constantly under attack. An artist is not qualified to
> ask
> questions of a scientific nature.
>
> A Scientist cannot investigate a question which lies beyond that which
> can be funded. A project proposal cannot be funded without a person
> holding a Ph.D as its Principal Investigator. Scientific Research has
> justification in hard terms of innovation in application as return on
> investment, but its chances of return are extremely low compared to
> most
> investments. Fine art is even worse.
>
> A Scientist is wasting his time and jeopardizing his career by
> considering questions outside of his field of research.
> Art runs counter to all of the principles guiding the practice of
> science.
> To a scientist, the creative process is wildly out of control and
> dangerous.
> I have never been a brilliant student, therefore, I have been found
> unfit to dwell within a scientific Institution.
>
> -Stewart, http://us.imdb.com/Name?Stewart+Dickson
> http://www.ifp.uiuc.edu/~sdickson
> http://emsh.calarts.edu/~mathart/MathArt_siteMap.html
> http://delicious.com/MathArtSPD
> http://digg.com/users/MathArtSPD
> http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/author.html?author=Stewart+Dickson
>
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=1daf63080a8b20a9f060a0514
> ee7cc36&prevstart=0&esrc=dg
> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=700072487
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/stewartdickson
> http://www.myspace.com/vedictantra
>
http://www.plaxo.com/profile/viewPhotosInAlbum/60130237993?album_id=14178&pk
> =c83684a23289cb279942a7c27d61a09c4da16552
> http://vedic-tantra.daportfolio.com/
> http://picasaweb.google.com/MathArtSPD
> http://siggrapharts.ning.com/profile/StewartDickson
> http://artosphere.ning.com/profile/StewartDickson
> http://community.ovationtv.com/MathArtSPD
> http://emsh.calarts.edu/~mathart/Tactile_Math.html
> http://www.ifp.illinois.edu/~sdickson/Tactile_Math.html
> http://community.moove.com/cs/as.dll??MathArtSPD
> http://mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=229302
> http://rapidmfg.ning.com/profile/StewartDickson
> http://bostoncyberarts.org/apropos/apropos_artist_detail.php?artistcode=48
>
http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile/Stewart+Dickson/
> 114855.html
> http://www.shapeways.com/shops/mathartspd
> http://www.pool.org.au/users/vedictantra
> http://www.ponoko.com/showroom/8Kb9ZRuu
>
> On 5/17/10 4:32 PM, roger malina wrote:
>> Yasminers
>>
>> For our collaboration topic, here is a underlying question: do
>> artists
>> and scientists share
>> the same cultures of inquiry ? Sundar Sarukkai in his article
>> on Science and the Ethics of Curiosity which I have quoted several
>> times on yasmin:
>>
>> http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/sep252009/756.pdf
>>
>> Points out that scientific curiosity is often framed within
>> the following ethos:
>>
>> Intellectual Honesty, Integrity, Epistemic Communism
>> Organized skepticism,Dis-interestedness
>> Impersonality, Universality
>>
>> It seems to me that many artists do not share all these values,
>> and that when artists and scientists seek to collaborate
>> these cultural difference can create friction, sometimes productive
>> sometimes not.
>>
>> in my talks i like to insist that artistic curiosity is often;
>>
>> non universal : a work can be loaded with meaning in one
>> context and meaningless in another. There is a large discussion
>> against "universals" in art. In science there is no concept of
>> locally
>> meaningful science.
>>
>> Impersonal: whereas scientists seek to remove the personality
>> of the scientist from their work, artists often seem to ground the
>> work in their embodied specificity.
>>
>> Disinterested: basic scientists like to have an intellectual
>> distance between
>> their work and the sponsor of their work (how succesful they are is
>> another
>> matter)
>>
>> Many artists work on commissions where indeed the work is intended
>> to be
>> situated within the framing of the institution or sponsor that
>> funds the work.
>> eg the Bilbau museum is inseparable as a building from the ethos of
>> the
>> Guggenheim Foundation. ( but of course scientists working on
>> applications
>> are sponsor contextualised)
>>
>> I know that I am over-generalising here, but there is much discussion
>> about the need for a "third culture' that somehow melds the
>> scientific
>> and the artistic ( or even E O Wilson's concept of conscilience). I
>> often
>> get very uncomfortable with these discussions, because it seems to me
>> there are valuable differences between the goals, values and methods
>> of scientists
>> and those of artists - and that often these implicit cultural
>> differences between
>> artists and scientists are not made explicit.
>>
>> There is a large literature in the business world on what are
>> called strategic
>> alliances= most collaborations between businesses fail, often
>> because so
>> many implicit values are not made explicit before a collaboration is
>> entered into.
>>
>> In the case of art science collaborations, many of them fail to be
>> successful
>> from the point of view of one or both the art and science
>> participants.
>>
>> Roger
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