Paul
Yes, we must acknowledge self-reflexivity. This is a first step:
acknowledging
our own biases and driving forces when we do research and practice. I am not
sure how to put this into practice other than to stress it in a
collaboration.
-p
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
> Paul
>
> I completely agree with all that you have said, but I would add that for
> understanding each other's framework it's necessary to understand each
> own's framework. It's quite obvious but a high level of self-reflexivity is
> previously needed to open to the other.
>
> In my teaching and research I've found so many scientists, engineers,
> designers and artists with a total lack of this minimum self-reflexivity.
> It's a paradox, but they do what they do because they have been doing it
> this way for many time, and never asked themselves why they have been doing
> it this way, and if that could be done in another completely different way.
> By self-reflexivity I mean to think, know and explore the
> (epistemological/ontological) foundations of their practices and theories.
>
> I am not telling that everyone should become a philosopher of science,
> technology of art, but at least they should know better and think about
> their discipline "foundations", This would make them better scientists,
> engineers, designers or artists. And would make them more open to the
> other, open to dialogue and collaboration.
>
> I've asked many times the same question to all types of teachers that have
> been trying to create this kind of transdisciplinary collaborations with
> their students: "How did it happen? Who finally made it?". And many of them
> told me that paradoxically for them the students more specialized in their
> discipline, those "best students", where the ones more open to collaborate
> and the ones that made better results out of their collaboration. I don't
> know if this is ok for you as well.
>
> So I guess that for a mutual understanding it's necessary one's
> understanding at a deeper lever, and then later, maybe that deeper level
> on mutual understanding could happen somehow, somewhere. Maybe that would
> help to travel around those differents directions of collaboration you were
> mentioning.
>
> Pau
>
>
>
> 2012/7/17 Paul Fishwick <fishwick@cise.ufl.edu>
>
> > Pau:
> > First and foremost, each member of a collaboration needs to understand
> > each others' framework. I think this is what you are getting at with the
> > discussion of different, and sometimes, conflicting epistemologies and
> > ontologies. However, it may be fruitful, or just pragmatic, to agree to
> > compromise by letting each "side" do the leading. In this way, everyone
> > wins. I'll provide an example.
> > As a computer scientist, my core interest is in mathematical and
> > computing
> > artifacts and processes. If I work with an artist, I will need to
> > understand that
> > artist but the artist also has to understand me. Let's say for the sake
> of
> > discussion that the artist is driven by creating works that are "socially
> > activist" (they are trying to draw attention to a socioeconomic problem).
> > I have to recognize that if I build something to help the artist achieve
> > one of
> > these works, that I may be implicitly playing a supporting role in the
> > collaboration because social activism is not my driving force. Actually,
> > programmers and computer scientists are used to these sorts of
> > collaborations where they play a supporting role.
> > Now, let's consider the other direction in the collaboration. In my
> quest
> > to explore novel representations of computing artifacts, it would be
> great
> > to improve these representations with the help of an artist or designer.
> > Perhaps the end goal is for both parties to come to an agreement where
> > the collaboration involves different projects, each sprouting from a
> > different
> > direction. This is a real challenge because it involves mutual
> > understanding
> > at a deep level. I am sure that there are some artists who view computer
> > scientists only as doing stuff to help support their vision (by creating
> a
> > new
> > technology or piece of software to support their artwork), and there are
> > some
> > computer scientists who view art and design purely as support vehicles
> for
> > their
> > visual illustration purposes.
> > The question is whether the artist and scientist can engage in both
> > types of projects (different directions) and agree to support each other
> > where appropriate. It would mean giving a little (by each) during a
> > multi-project
> > collaboration based on an agreed-upon theme of mutual interest (climate
> > change for instance).
> > -p
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Roger, Aprille, Rasheed, Paul
> > >
> > > I believe it's not just only a methodological question, neither a
> > > technological aspect that pushes forward SEAD interactions. There are a
> > lot
> > > of types of enablors that could help create good SEAD experiences. We
> > must
> > > look at each of them carefully.
> > >
> > > Briefly I would say that methodologies (how to research) depend on
> > > epistemologies (what to research) and that depends on ontologies (what
> is
> > > the real/ the beings). There are some pieces that fit together better
> > than
> > > the others, and others don't fit at all, or at least are really hard
> that
> > > could work together. It's like a lego....
> > >
> > > Some times, things work well together. For example Latour's
> Actor-Network
> > > Theory (let's say, an epistemology) proved to fit great with etnography
> > (a
> > > methodology) as they shared also a great respect with material culture
> > > status (ontology) and its agency in Science and Technology studies.
> That
> > > time pieces fitted well and STS, Antropology, Etnography are taking
> > > advantatge of this sinergy. As it is taking its course in Media Studies
> > and
> > > elsewhere.
> > >
> > > Other times you don't realize they don't fit until it's too late. You
> > start
> > > working with somebody from another discipline, you set up what to do
> and
> > > some methodologies and techniques to work together, then you start
> having
> > > epistemological discussions about what is and what is not the object to
> > > research - they migth tolerate differences or they migth not- and you
> > end
> > > up having trouble with ontologies -about what deserves to be studied as
> > > it's relevant for the real...You did not know that before you started,
> > > maybe there was a great personal feeling, or an ideal context for
> > > developing a collaboration or collective work, but it simple did'nt
> > worked
> > > out because you hit the hard stone. As Rasheed pointed out some times
> the
> > > "other side" doesn't share the same values, or doesn't
> > tolerate/understand
> > > other's values, and there's no point in collaboration.
> > >
> > > For example, you are an artist trying to work with an Historian because
> > you
> > > both love Art, you both share great personal feeling and have an ideal
> > > context for working together. You believe in the power of Art for
> > enabling
> > > Social transformation. But the Historian conception of History gives
> > > relevance only to structure and Institutions as key agents in all
> > changes,
> > > and those changes can only be achieved through structural revolutions
> and
> > > war. In that sense believes that Art is just a side-effect, and art
> and
> > > the artists are secondary examples, not driving forces at all. That
> > > Historian didn't believe in Art for social change that would lead into
> > > political change and then to structural and institutional change. Then,
> > if
> > > they don't tolerate each other's point of departure, collaboration
> would
> > > ultimately lead into failure.
> > >
> > > And, this is just in a discoursive level, but as we've said, there are
> > > other factors that are related with the "ecosistem" where those
> > > collaborations operate: Political, Economic, Social, Ethical aspects
> that
> > > influence definetivelly those possibilities....Mutual understanding of
> > > those ecosystems' rules is needed. We migth take a look at all of them
> > one
> > > by one in order to recreate those enablers, but of course, SEAD
> > > interactions not always produce valuable content "per se".... inter or
> > > transdisciplinariety doesn't make it all into good as pointed out
> before.
> > >
> > > I also like Paul's suggestion to continue discussion in clarification
> of
> > > the questions arised by Rasheed.
> > >
> > > Many thanks!
> > >
> > > Pau
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2012/7/11 roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
> > >
> > > > Pau
> > > >
> > > > let me pick on your topic of 'bridges' and consilience
> > > >
> > > > like you i think E O Wilson's concept of consilience turned out
> > > > not to be very productive and rather totalising - am not very
> familiar
> > > > with Gould's " conscilience of
> > > > equal attention"
> > > >
> > > > but yes- one of the way to enable science/engineering to
> > > > arts/design/humanities
> > > > is to find these bridging concepts
> > > >
> > > > i have been reading recently in the field of translation studies and
> > have
> > > > found some interesting ideas- for instance of 'travelling concepts=
> > > > but also the idea that un-translatability exists and one needs
> methods
> > > that
> > > > are well established in cross cultural translation and now
> > > > interdisciplinary
> > > > translation ( or inter-media)
> > > >
> > > > there are bridges that are technological- when artists and scientists
> > use
> > > > the same tools then they start have overlapping epistemologies etc
> > > >
> > > > paul fishwick in his white paper looks at how gaming technologies are
> > > such
> > > > a
> > > > collaboration enabling tool
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/white-paper-abstracts/abstracts/learning-computing-through-game-experiences/
> > > >
> > > > one area that is fertile right now is the science of complex networks
> > > which
> > > > has been found to be productive across the science and humanities
> > > >
> > > > I do think that we need to start being more rigorous in discussing
> > > > collaboration - as depending on the context ( interdisciplinary,
> multi
> > > > disciplinary
> > > > and trans-disciplinary) there need to be differing approaches- but
> > > > certainly
> > > > collaboration as a learned skill is a bridging problem also
> > > >
> > > > it would perhaps be interesting to inventory these bridge areas that
> > are
> > > > currently enabling collaboration between science/engineering with
> > > > arts/design
> > > >
> > > > here in marseille the area of history and philosophy of science is
> > rather
> > > > strong and i have found some of the discussions interesting
> especially
> > > > since history and philosophy of science is very disconnected from the
> > > doing
> > > > of science in general - at lunch today we were discussing
> > > meta-mathematics
> > > > and meta-philosophy !
> > > >
> > > > Roger
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > From: Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu>
> > > >
> > > > Roger,
> > > >
> > > > > In the book by allen repko on interdisciplinary theory and practice
> > > > > one of the things he does is discuss how different kinds of
> > scientists
> > > > > have different cultures
> > > > > eg observational sciences like astronomy
> > > > > vs experimental sciences like chemistry
> > > > > vs field sciences like ecology
> > > > > vs mathematical sciences like complex networks
> > > > >
> > > > > they are all sciences but in fact the scientists have different
> > > > practices.
> > > > > does it make sense to combine them all or should we create
> > > > > translation methods between culturs of practice ?
> > > > >
> > > > > in arts and humanities we also find similar variations on how
> > > > > the discipline deals with information about the world
> > > > > and intervening in the world= time based arts differ
> > > > > from architecture etc
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You mean creating "bridges"? I believe, as Loius Bec says, that art
> > > itself
> > > > is a rare transformational agent that would do that function.
> > > >
> > > > Those other "methodological" or "epistemological" bridges are really
> > hard
> > > > to imagine as a universal set of tools. But of course there are
> > > > "practice-based-theories" that migth prove better bridges than
> others.
> > > This
> > > > would lead into another deep philosophical debate....(that I also
> > enjoy a
> > > > lot, but migth be a whole new focus of discussion)
> > > >
> > > > You migth not agree with Edgar O. Wilson's concept of consilience as
> it
> > > has
> > > > proved to be reductionist, and at the end not taking seriously all
> > fields
> > > > of knowledge equally. But do you think that something not just
> > > theoretical
> > > > could came out from what Stephen Jay Gould says about "conscilience
> of
> > > > equal attention"? Are there already methodology or epistemology tools
> > > > coming out from that? Some techniques or strategies for "jumping
> > > together"
> > > > as Gould says?
> > > >
> > > > Just wondering...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Anway i know that the FECYT report and the process that led to
> > > > > it was very useful in spain= as are other efforts internationally
> > > > >
> > > > > for instance in the USA the mellon foundation has just funded a
> major
> > > > > project to promote integrating arts practice into the research
> > > university
> > > > >
> > > > > http://artsengine.umich.edu/
> > > > >
> > > > > ArtsEngine National has been awarded a $500,000, 3.5 year grant
> from
> > > > > the Andrew W. Mellon
> > > > > Foundation to create the first comprehensive guide to best
> practices
> > > > > in the integration of arts
> > > > > practice in U.S. research universities. To be published in Fall
> 2015,
> > > > > the guide is to identify models,
> > > > > obstacles, implementation strategies, costs, and impact on
> students
> > > > > and faculty as well as on
> > > > > research, practice, and teaching in other knowledge areas.
> > > > >
> > > > > With this award, the Mellon Foundation has enabled the national
> > > > > network to make major progress
> > > > > toward our mission of integrating arts practice into the research
> > > > > university.
> > > > >
> > > > > This activity of course is a heads on collision between the "studio
> > > > > based" artists practice
> > > > > versus the research model for the arts ( and all the debate on to
> PhD
> > > > > or not to PhD )
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As you already know In Europe there is the Studiolabs innitaitive
> > > > http://www.studiolabproject.eu/ that migth work quite in the same
> way,
> > > am
> > > > i
> > > > right?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pau
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > > > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
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> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Roger Malina
> > > > I am in France at the moment
> > > > 33(0)6 80 45 94 47
> > > >
> > > > Announcing new version with videos of
> > > > Leonardo EBOOK on Arts Humanities and Complex Networks
> > > > http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007S0UA9Q
> > > >
> > > > Announcing Leonardo Party in Los Angeles during Siggraph.
> > > > Aug 5-9 If you would like to be invited contact me.
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pau Alsina González
> > > Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
> > > Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
> > >
> > > Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
> > > Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
> > > Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
> > >
> > > (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
> > > Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
> > > Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
> > > Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
> > >
> > >
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>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
> Pau Alsina González
> Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
> Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
>
> Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
> Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
> Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
>
> (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
> Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
> Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
> Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
>
>
> Aquest missatge s´adreça exclusivament a qui va destinat i pot contenir
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