Pau, Paul, Roger, and all,
I wonder if Jazz improvisations (in concrete when they merge with Jazz
compositions) could serve as inspiration for a self-reflexivity that
enables a self-organizing dialog between driving forces, epistemological
biases and rigid methods to happen. Maybe a musician could help here to
explore how this could be done.
Cristina
El 18/07/12 18:11, Paul Fishwick escribió:
> Paul
> Yes, we must acknowledge self-reflexivity. This is a first step:
> acknowledging
> our own biases and driving forces when we do research and practice. I am not
> sure how to put this into practice other than to stress it in a
> collaboration.
> -p
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
>
>> Paul
>>
>> I completely agree with all that you have said, but I would add that for
>> understanding each other's framework it's necessary to understand each
>> own's framework. It's quite obvious but a high level of self-reflexivity is
>> previously needed to open to the other.
>>
>> In my teaching and research I've found so many scientists, engineers,
>> designers and artists with a total lack of this minimum self-reflexivity.
>> It's a paradox, but they do what they do because they have been doing it
>> this way for many time, and never asked themselves why they have been doing
>> it this way, and if that could be done in another completely different way.
>> By self-reflexivity I mean to think, know and explore the
>> (epistemological/ontological) foundations of their practices and theories.
>>
>> I am not telling that everyone should become a philosopher of science,
>> technology of art, but at least they should know better and think about
>> their discipline "foundations", This would make them better scientists,
>> engineers, designers or artists. And would make them more open to the
>> other, open to dialogue and collaboration.
>>
>> I've asked many times the same question to all types of teachers that have
>> been trying to create this kind of transdisciplinary collaborations with
>> their students: "How did it happen? Who finally made it?". And many of them
>> told me that paradoxically for them the students more specialized in their
>> discipline, those "best students", where the ones more open to collaborate
>> and the ones that made better results out of their collaboration. I don't
>> know if this is ok for you as well.
>>
>> So I guess that for a mutual understanding it's necessary one's
>> understanding at a deeper lever, and then later, maybe that deeper level
>> on mutual understanding could happen somehow, somewhere. Maybe that would
>> help to travel around those differents directions of collaboration you were
>> mentioning.
>>
>> Pau
>>
>>
>>
>> 2012/7/17 Paul Fishwick <fishwick@cise.ufl.edu>
>>
>>> Pau:
>>> First and foremost, each member of a collaboration needs to understand
>>> each others' framework. I think this is what you are getting at with the
>>> discussion of different, and sometimes, conflicting epistemologies and
>>> ontologies. However, it may be fruitful, or just pragmatic, to agree to
>>> compromise by letting each "side" do the leading. In this way, everyone
>>> wins. I'll provide an example.
>>> As a computer scientist, my core interest is in mathematical and
>>> computing
>>> artifacts and processes. If I work with an artist, I will need to
>>> understand that
>>> artist but the artist also has to understand me. Let's say for the sake
>> of
>>> discussion that the artist is driven by creating works that are "socially
>>> activist" (they are trying to draw attention to a socioeconomic problem).
>>> I have to recognize that if I build something to help the artist achieve
>>> one of
>>> these works, that I may be implicitly playing a supporting role in the
>>> collaboration because social activism is not my driving force. Actually,
>>> programmers and computer scientists are used to these sorts of
>>> collaborations where they play a supporting role.
>>> Now, let's consider the other direction in the collaboration. In my
>> quest
>>> to explore novel representations of computing artifacts, it would be
>> great
>>> to improve these representations with the help of an artist or designer.
>>> Perhaps the end goal is for both parties to come to an agreement where
>>> the collaboration involves different projects, each sprouting from a
>>> different
>>> direction. This is a real challenge because it involves mutual
>>> understanding
>>> at a deep level. I am sure that there are some artists who view computer
>>> scientists only as doing stuff to help support their vision (by creating
>> a
>>> new
>>> technology or piece of software to support their artwork), and there are
>>> some
>>> computer scientists who view art and design purely as support vehicles
>> for
>>> their
>>> visual illustration purposes.
>>> The question is whether the artist and scientist can engage in both
>>> types of projects (different directions) and agree to support each other
>>> where appropriate. It would mean giving a little (by each) during a
>>> multi-project
>>> collaboration based on an agreed-upon theme of mutual interest (climate
>>> change for instance).
>>> -p
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roger, Aprille, Rasheed, Paul
>>>>
>>>> I believe it's not just only a methodological question, neither a
>>>> technological aspect that pushes forward SEAD interactions. There are a
>>> lot
>>>> of types of enablors that could help create good SEAD experiences. We
>>> must
>>>> look at each of them carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Briefly I would say that methodologies (how to research) depend on
>>>> epistemologies (what to research) and that depends on ontologies (what
>> is
>>>> the real/ the beings). There are some pieces that fit together better
>>> than
>>>> the others, and others don't fit at all, or at least are really hard
>> that
>>>> could work together. It's like a lego....
>>>>
>>>> Some times, things work well together. For example Latour's
>> Actor-Network
>>>> Theory (let's say, an epistemology) proved to fit great with etnography
>>> (a
>>>> methodology) as they shared also a great respect with material culture
>>>> status (ontology) and its agency in Science and Technology studies.
>> That
>>>> time pieces fitted well and STS, Antropology, Etnography are taking
>>>> advantatge of this sinergy. As it is taking its course in Media Studies
>>> and
>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Other times you don't realize they don't fit until it's too late. You
>>> start
>>>> working with somebody from another discipline, you set up what to do
>> and
>>>> some methodologies and techniques to work together, then you start
>> having
>>>> epistemological discussions about what is and what is not the object to
>>>> research - they migth tolerate differences or they migth not- and you
>>> end
>>>> up having trouble with ontologies -about what deserves to be studied as
>>>> it's relevant for the real...You did not know that before you started,
>>>> maybe there was a great personal feeling, or an ideal context for
>>>> developing a collaboration or collective work, but it simple did'nt
>>> worked
>>>> out because you hit the hard stone. As Rasheed pointed out some times
>> the
>>>> "other side" doesn't share the same values, or doesn't
>>> tolerate/understand
>>>> other's values, and there's no point in collaboration.
>>>>
>>>> For example, you are an artist trying to work with an Historian because
>>> you
>>>> both love Art, you both share great personal feeling and have an ideal
>>>> context for working together. You believe in the power of Art for
>>> enabling
>>>> Social transformation. But the Historian conception of History gives
>>>> relevance only to structure and Institutions as key agents in all
>>> changes,
>>>> and those changes can only be achieved through structural revolutions
>> and
>>>> war. In that sense believes that Art is just a side-effect, and art
>> and
>>>> the artists are secondary examples, not driving forces at all. That
>>>> Historian didn't believe in Art for social change that would lead into
>>>> political change and then to structural and institutional change. Then,
>>> if
>>>> they don't tolerate each other's point of departure, collaboration
>> would
>>>> ultimately lead into failure.
>>>>
>>>> And, this is just in a discoursive level, but as we've said, there are
>>>> other factors that are related with the "ecosistem" where those
>>>> collaborations operate: Political, Economic, Social, Ethical aspects
>> that
>>>> influence definetivelly those possibilities....Mutual understanding of
>>>> those ecosystems' rules is needed. We migth take a look at all of them
>>> one
>>>> by one in order to recreate those enablers, but of course, SEAD
>>>> interactions not always produce valuable content "per se".... inter or
>>>> transdisciplinariety doesn't make it all into good as pointed out
>> before.
>>>> I also like Paul's suggestion to continue discussion in clarification
>> of
>>>> the questions arised by Rasheed.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Pau
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2012/7/11 roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
>>>>
>>>>> Pau
>>>>>
>>>>> let me pick on your topic of 'bridges' and consilience
>>>>>
>>>>> like you i think E O Wilson's concept of consilience turned out
>>>>> not to be very productive and rather totalising - am not very
>> familiar
>>>>> with Gould's " conscilience of
>>>>> equal attention"
>>>>>
>>>>> but yes- one of the way to enable science/engineering to
>>>>> arts/design/humanities
>>>>> is to find these bridging concepts
>>>>>
>>>>> i have been reading recently in the field of translation studies and
>>> have
>>>>> found some interesting ideas- for instance of 'travelling concepts=
>>>>> but also the idea that un-translatability exists and one needs
>> methods
>>>> that
>>>>> are well established in cross cultural translation and now
>>>>> interdisciplinary
>>>>> translation ( or inter-media)
>>>>>
>>>>> there are bridges that are technological- when artists and scientists
>>> use
>>>>> the same tools then they start have overlapping epistemologies etc
>>>>>
>>>>> paul fishwick in his white paper looks at how gaming technologies are
>>>> such
>>>>> a
>>>>> collaboration enabling tool
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/white-paper-abstracts/abstracts/learning-computing-through-game-experiences/
>>>>> one area that is fertile right now is the science of complex networks
>>>> which
>>>>> has been found to be productive across the science and humanities
>>>>>
>>>>> I do think that we need to start being more rigorous in discussing
>>>>> collaboration - as depending on the context ( interdisciplinary,
>> multi
>>>>> disciplinary
>>>>> and trans-disciplinary) there need to be differing approaches- but
>>>>> certainly
>>>>> collaboration as a learned skill is a bridging problem also
>>>>>
>>>>> it would perhaps be interesting to inventory these bridge areas that
>>> are
>>>>> currently enabling collaboration between science/engineering with
>>>>> arts/design
>>>>>
>>>>> here in marseille the area of history and philosophy of science is
>>> rather
>>>>> strong and i have found some of the discussions interesting
>> especially
>>>>> since history and philosophy of science is very disconnected from the
>>>> doing
>>>>> of science in general - at lunch today we were discussing
>>>> meta-mathematics
>>>>> and meta-philosophy !
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu>
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger,
>>>>>
>>>>>> In the book by allen repko on interdisciplinary theory and practice
>>>>>> one of the things he does is discuss how different kinds of
>>> scientists
>>>>>> have different cultures
>>>>>> eg observational sciences like astronomy
>>>>>> vs experimental sciences like chemistry
>>>>>> vs field sciences like ecology
>>>>>> vs mathematical sciences like complex networks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> they are all sciences but in fact the scientists have different
>>>>> practices.
>>>>>> does it make sense to combine them all or should we create
>>>>>> translation methods between culturs of practice ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in arts and humanities we also find similar variations on how
>>>>>> the discipline deals with information about the world
>>>>>> and intervening in the world= time based arts differ
>>>>>> from architecture etc
>>>>>>
>>>>> You mean creating "bridges"? I believe, as Loius Bec says, that art
>>>> itself
>>>>> is a rare transformational agent that would do that function.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those other "methodological" or "epistemological" bridges are really
>>> hard
>>>>> to imagine as a universal set of tools. But of course there are
>>>>> "practice-based-theories" that migth prove better bridges than
>> others.
>>>> This
>>>>> would lead into another deep philosophical debate....(that I also
>>> enjoy a
>>>>> lot, but migth be a whole new focus of discussion)
>>>>>
>>>>> You migth not agree with Edgar O. Wilson's concept of consilience as
>> it
>>>> has
>>>>> proved to be reductionist, and at the end not taking seriously all
>>> fields
>>>>> of knowledge equally. But do you think that something not just
>>>> theoretical
>>>>> could came out from what Stephen Jay Gould says about "conscilience
>> of
>>>>> equal attention"? Are there already methodology or epistemology tools
>>>>> coming out from that? Some techniques or strategies for "jumping
>>>> together"
>>>>> as Gould says?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just wondering...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anway i know that the FECYT report and the process that led to
>>>>>> it was very useful in spain= as are other efforts internationally
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for instance in the USA the mellon foundation has just funded a
>> major
>>>>>> project to promote integrating arts practice into the research
>>>> university
>>>>>> http://artsengine.umich.edu/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ArtsEngine National has been awarded a $500,000, 3.5 year grant
>> from
>>>>>> the Andrew W. Mellon
>>>>>> Foundation to create the first comprehensive guide to best
>> practices
>>>>>> in the integration of arts
>>>>>> practice in U.S. research universities. To be published in Fall
>> 2015,
>>>>>> the guide is to identify models,
>>>>>> obstacles, implementation strategies, costs, and impact on
>> students
>>>>>> and faculty as well as on
>>>>>> research, practice, and teaching in other knowledge areas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With this award, the Mellon Foundation has enabled the national
>>>>>> network to make major progress
>>>>>> toward our mission of integrating arts practice into the research
>>>>>> university.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This activity of course is a heads on collision between the "studio
>>>>>> based" artists practice
>>>>>> versus the research model for the arts ( and all the debate on to
>> PhD
>>>>>> or not to PhD )
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As you already know In Europe there is the Studiolabs innitaitive
>>>>> http://www.studiolabproject.eu/ that migth work quite in the same
>> way,
>>>> am
>>>>> i
>>>>> right?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pau
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Roger Malina
>>>>> I am in France at the moment
>>>>> 33(0)6 80 45 94 47
>>>>>
>>>>> Announcing new version with videos of
>>>>> Leonardo EBOOK on Arts Humanities and Complex Networks
>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007S0UA9Q
>>>>>
>>>>> Announcing Leonardo Party in Los Angeles during Siggraph.
>>>>> Aug 5-9 If you would like to be invited contact me.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pau Alsina González
>>>> Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
>>>> Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
>>>>
>>>> Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
>>>> Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
>>>> Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
>>>>
>>>> (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
>>>> Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
>>>> Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
>>>> Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aquest missatge s´adreça exclusivament a qui va destinat i pot contenir
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Pau Alsina González
>> Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
>> Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
>>
>> Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
>> Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
>> Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
>>
>> (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
>> Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
>> Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
>> Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
>>
>>
>> Aquest missatge s´adreça exclusivament a qui va destinat i pot contenir
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