On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Todd Siler <toddsiler@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Hi Roger,
>
> Thanks for setting in motion a chain of thought-provoking emails (below).
> They've triggered countless nerve/cell-assemblies that make me remember
> and wonder aloud once again: Why not adventure beyond weighing and
> measuring Art's contributions to the advancement of
> science-technology-civil society? Why not focus on exploring the spectrum
> of learning experiences these curious artscience collaborations afford us
> that are invaluable? I trust we'll quickly progress beyond these
> ever-expanding acronyms for STEM, STEAM, STEAAM, SHTEAM that distract us
> from doing what comes so naturally to many inquisitive minds who *think
> beyond categories* and simply enjoy the challenge of working
> collaboratively to achieve a shared, common goal.
>
> It seems we're all groping to answer the same questions about human
> creativity that many of us transdisciplinary "artscientists" (aka
> integrative thinkers) posed decades ago as natural born "metaphormers"
> (lifelong learners, creators, discoverers, inventors, and innovators).
> Perhaps, we should look more closely at our myriad *definitions* of art
> and science, which tend to determine our *experiences* of these two
> interrelated domains of explicit, tacit and implicit knowledge (see
> attached pdf).
>
> In an earlier email, you stated that "there are numerous modes of art
> science collaboration." Indeed, there are, just as there are numerous
> expressions and embodiments of these collaborations. Unfortunately,
> many are overlooked or ignored for reasons that are too deep to detail in
> this email.
>
> I'd like to briefly comment on two mutual interests that remain top of
> mind: (1) art science work that leads to scientific production, and (2)
> instructional technology or procedures that can be used to train people
> how to collaborate on art science projects.
>
> Concerning (1): the collaboration I've been engaged in for the past 18
> months with Geoffrey Alan Ozin aims for both scientific production (e.g.,
> the invention of a new Periodic Table of Nanomaterials) and artistic
> production (e.g., ArtNano Innovations). As we noted in our white paper for
> the SEAD Network: "The collaborative endeavor spotlighted in this paper
> presents one example of two lifelong practitioners in the ArtScience
> process who have come together to explore the possibilities of realizing
> innovations in Nanoscience and Nanotechnology that can help meet our most
> urgent global challenges (Ozin et al., 2009). I don't recall sending you
> our proposal for the ArtNano Innovations. But I'd gladly do so, if you're
> interested.
>
> For the moment, I'll simply point to a couple of artscience
> collaborations that have led to patented inventions and tangible products
> with industrial applications.* *I was hoping that more researchers in the
> SEAD Network who composed meta analyses would visit my collaborator
> Geoffrey Alan Ozin's website (http://nanowizardry.info), they would've
> seen the pioneering work Geoffrey and his colleagues have done over the
> past four decades -- much of which embody the ArtScience process and
> practices. Geoffrey's creative collaborations reveal how the arts add much
> to scientific inquiry and are useful in ways that catalyze innovations. I
> find that Ozin 's books and papers on Nanochemistry address many of the
> concerns the SEAD Network and Yasmin community have mulled over for some
> time now; they provide fresh insights into teaching, learning and
> applying his polymathic knowledge *from lab-to-market*. Also, Ozin's
> artscience approach has led to a number of practical patents and new
> businesses (such as the Toronto-based company he co-founded, Opalux (
> http://opalux.com), which produce "tunable photonic crystal technology"
> applied to security printing.
>
> One quick aside that's important to mention here: there's a rather curious
> connection between our different, yet related, approaches to purposeful
> "object making" is how Ozin et al build their nanomaterials on a
> microscopic level (from bottom up). In an uncanny way, their process
> parallels how I create my large-scale paintings [some 14ft. x 200ft.] using
> macroscopic scale techniques (literally, top down), which utilize the
> retro-relief printing/painting technology that MIT patented for me some
> years ago.
>
> My point is: there are many basic connections between our diverse
> approaches to discovery and innovation that are uniquely united through the
> artscience process; invariably, that process yields many "accidental
> discoveries," to borrow Albert Szent-Gyorgyi's words; as he writes: "A
> discovery is said to be an accident meeting a prepared mind." I've
> experienced this many times: how both art & science prepare our minds for
> that unexpected encounter with discovery; and how the research-based work
> of artscience often leads to patentable products. I'm inclined to believe
> this work succeeds precisely because it fosters the open-mindedness and
> creative freedom I enjoy in transdisciplinary thinking and integrative
> studies. That's why I've been having so much fun collaborating with
> Geoffrey. He gets the whole ArtScience process, because he's been
> practicing it over a lifetime as evidenced in "Materialology: Past,
> Present, Future" Nanochemistry Research Group 2012.
>
> Concerning (2)*:* I think* *the creative collaborations you're aiming to
> teach can be gleaned from reading this book: Ozin, G.A., Arsenault, A.C.,
> and Cademartirir, L. (2009).* Nanochemistry: A Chemical Approach to
> Nanomaterial. *Toronto, Canada: Royal Society of Chemistry and University
> of Toronto. Ozin et al. write: "One of the hallmarks of nanoscience is
> its interdisciplinary nature—its practice requires chemists, physicists,
> materials scientists, engineers and biologists to work together in
> close-knit teams," write Geoffrey Ozin, Andre Arsenault and Ludovico
> Cademartiri, co-authors of *Nanochemistry: A Chemical Approach to
> Nanomaterials *(2009). "Communication and collaboration between
> disciplines will enable these teams to tackle the most challenging
> scientific problems, those that are most pressing in the successful
> exploitation of nanotechnology.
>
> On a related note, the procedures we've been using since 1994 to stimulate
> and cultivate "ArtScience collaborations" are highlighted in this article:
> "The ArtScience Program for Realizing Human Potential," in LEONARDO, Vol.
> 44, No.5, 2011; pp. 417-424, 2011. As you'll read, the ArtScience program
> is meant to *start upstream* [in elementary school] and carry on through
> high-school and college, and used throughout one's careers. In fact, the
> ArtScience process as described in this program is intended to be applied
> *lifelong* and used in *informal learning* situations, such as in various
> professional work-related situations, where individuals, groups and
> cross-functional teams (composed of a spectrum of specialists) collaborate
> on goal-oriented projects with measurable outcomes. (Siler, Todd.
> (2012) 'Pointing your way to success through metaphorming,''in *Journal
> of Business Strategy*, Vol. 31 No. 4, pp. 47-58, ISSN 0275-6668. ; Q
> Emerald Group Publishing Limited, "Making sense of ideas: The model route
> to innovation," in *Strategic Direction* Vol. 26, No. 11 2010, pp. 25-27;
> ISSN 0258-0543)
>
> The taproot for that program and its approach to innovation was initially
> expressed in *Breaking The Mind Barrier: The Artscience of Neurocosmology*(Simon & Schuster, 1990). Essentially, I used the visual arts to make some
> new connections between two of the most complex physical sciences: human
> neuroscience and the scientific study of the cosmos. I still find that
> adventurous connection-making process essential for catalyzing innovative
> thinking and creative collaborations. It's also important for raising
> insightful hypotheses, which can be confirmed (or not confirmed) by
> applying the scientific method. That was one of the key points of *Breaking
> The Mind Barrier:* fostering ArtScience collaborations that apply
> creative inquiry in probing natural connections on all dimensions and
> scales.
>
> "The purpose of art is to lay bare the questions that have been concealed
> by the answers," according to the novelist James Baldwin.
>
> My artscience work aims to lay bare many fundamental questions about the
> relationships and interactions between the inner-and-outer workings of
> the brain. The relationships and interactions remain as unsolved mysteries
> of human creativity. I tried my best to explore this reality in *Breaking
> The Mind Barrier*, which grew out of this adventurous doctoral work, *Architectonics
> of Thought: A Symbolic Model of Neuropsychological Processes* (Ph.D. in
> Interdisciplinary Studies in Psychology and Art, Massachusetts Institute of
> Technology, 1986; https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/17200*.*
>
> Finally, "the dichotomizing between art and science," as you've aptly put
> it Roger, will continue until the day everyone realizes that *we tend to
> experience things by how we define them.* In fact, our context-specific
> definitions of art and science (more so than our content-specific
> definitions) lead us to construct all sorts of silos and towering walls of
> today's compartmentalized fields of specialized disciplinary knowledge.
> These real silos and virtual walls are still present. I see us smacking
> into them like birds hitting crystal clear closed windows. Honestly, it
> hurts just the same crashing into the silent symbolic space that separates
> the words and worlds of "art science"; that space may as well be filled by
> an astrix or hyphen or slash mark, or some other symbolic expression of
> separation.
>
> Todd
>
> PS – the attached PDF explores our ever-evolving definitions of Art. Some
> years ago I wrote these informal "notes to myself" that highlight various
> changes I've seen in our definitions and experiences of the arts. I think
> these notes may still be useful for further developing an ArtScience
> education that applies an ever-adaptable, lifelong curriculum for fostering
> innovative thinking.
>
> toddsiler@alum.mit.edu
>
> *www.ToddSilerArt.com*
>
>
> roger malina
> Aug 22 (7 days ago)
> to yasmin_announc., YASMIN
> Brian
>
> your email triggered a nerve-
>
> when we surveyed the STEAM field in
> US high schools for the SEAD white papers we found dozens
> of STEAM programs- including STEAM with the A for Agriculture-
> so yes all for Activism !!
>
> my colleague tom linehan has been asking provocatively whether
> the very concept of STEM is a concept that is now no longer useful
>
> ie the very ontology of STEM forces you into a way of thinking
> that blocks the most interesting ideas and projects
>
> Johnathan Zillberg in his SEAD white paper meta analysis
> started a frontal attack on the very concept of the two cultures
> as one that is no longer useful and critiques how in spite of
> ourselves we draw on the two culture mythology even though
> C P snow himself disagreed with the way his ideas had been
> distorted
>
> how would the art science community begin to think if we
> banished the two cultures and CP Snow (yeah aristotle is fun
> to read too) and the very concept of dividing knowledge and
> education into STEM fields and non STEM Fields= so maybe
> this STEM to STEAM discussion is fundamentally misguided
>
> i remember 20 years ago roy ascott when we were working
> on the Leonardo Special Issue on Art and Interactive Telecommunications
> (with the late and regretted Carl Loeffler) agitating to find a way
> to replace the work Art because it carried too much unuseful baggage
>
>
> so no for STEAM STEAAM SHTEAM yes for ?
>
> roger
>
>
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Thursday, August 29, 2013
Tuesday, August 27, 2013
Re: [Yasmin_discussions] how does art science collaboration practice contribute to scientific research
Estaban:
You bring back some very old memories. My first obsession with mathematics
was through polar plots. That such beauty could be generated through a few
symbols was incredible to me. Three years later in high school, I saw this:
http://www.knowltonmosaics.com/pages/HKnewd.htm
somewhere. It was Knowlton's work. I think I wrote some sort of ridiculous letter to
him and he actually replied. Big influence. I ended up writing FORTRAN code to
draw plots and print banners in ASCII. Note the closeup which appear to be
symbols for diodes, transistors, and arithmetic operations.
-p
On Aug 27, 2013, at 12:33 PM, esteban garcia <estebang@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings Yasmin,
>
> I have been following this thread with interest, reminding me of the very
> origins of computer art. Art practices can inform scientific processes vice
> versa.
>
> The Bell Research Laboratories activities during the 1960s are an example
> of how artistic experimentation led to the discovery of new technologies. A
> select group of scientists were asked to be creative to make something
> without a set goal in mind. They were invited to experiment or play with
> technology, in order to foster innovation; the results were outstanding.
> Thanks to the experiments, digital photography was created by the
> collaborative efforts of artist Ken Knowlton and Leon Harmon in 1966.
> Another case is Purdue University Professor Aldo Giorgini (1934-1994), who
> produced some of the first color and three-dimensional river simulations.
> While a professor of Civil Engineering since 1967, Giorgini excelled both
> as computer artist and computational hydraulics pioneer.
>
> A good text to review with this history is Enrique Castaño's dissertation,
> fully online, but unfortunately not translated:
> http://www.enriquecastanos.com/tesisindice.htm
>
> Thank you,
>
> Esteban García
>
>
>
>
>
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
http://www.utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
_______________________________________________
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You bring back some very old memories. My first obsession with mathematics
was through polar plots. That such beauty could be generated through a few
symbols was incredible to me. Three years later in high school, I saw this:
http://www.knowltonmosaics.com/pages/HKnewd.htm
somewhere. It was Knowlton's work. I think I wrote some sort of ridiculous letter to
him and he actually replied. Big influence. I ended up writing FORTRAN code to
draw plots and print banners in ASCII. Note the closeup which appear to be
symbols for diodes, transistors, and arithmetic operations.
-p
On Aug 27, 2013, at 12:33 PM, esteban garcia <estebang@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings Yasmin,
>
> I have been following this thread with interest, reminding me of the very
> origins of computer art. Art practices can inform scientific processes vice
> versa.
>
> The Bell Research Laboratories activities during the 1960s are an example
> of how artistic experimentation led to the discovery of new technologies. A
> select group of scientists were asked to be creative to make something
> without a set goal in mind. They were invited to experiment or play with
> technology, in order to foster innovation; the results were outstanding.
> Thanks to the experiments, digital photography was created by the
> collaborative efforts of artist Ken Knowlton and Leon Harmon in 1966.
> Another case is Purdue University Professor Aldo Giorgini (1934-1994), who
> produced some of the first color and three-dimensional river simulations.
> While a professor of Civil Engineering since 1967, Giorgini excelled both
> as computer artist and computational hydraulics pioneer.
>
> A good text to review with this history is Enrique Castaño's dissertation,
> fully online, but unfortunately not translated:
> http://www.enriquecastanos.com/tesisindice.htm
>
> Thank you,
>
> Esteban García
>
>
>
>
>
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
http://www.utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contribute to successful scientific practice
Roger:
>
> paul: re your blog
>
> http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
>
> i like your talking of the
>
> A New Trivium and Quadrivium- because it frames a question of
> how education should be structured- coming back to my cargo cult
> analogy- if so many of us now live in a digital cultural - as we have been
> discussing coding is as fundamental as an ability as is reading , writing
> arithmetic- if we want science and technology to be culturally embedded
> in new ways then just as billions of people know how to read and write we need
> billions of people to know how to code
This seems logical, and I would go further and say that we need to
teach the core elements of computing (more fundamental than coding)
but in a way that is amenable to non-engineers: for example, ways
to think-about and interact-with program and data structures, and
automata. For this activity, coding is a secondary translation.
As far as code is concerned, I am pleased to say that there are many
movements along this line, including those that span the "virtuality
continuum" between the purely virtual and the purely physical (tangible).
For designers and artists, Processing is a good bet for starters. For
those who are more musically inclined, I would recommend Pure
Data (PD) although Processing contains many libraries for sound.
-p
>
>
> roger
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Simon Biggs <simon@littlepig.org.uk>
> Date: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 11:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice
> contribute to successful scientific practice
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>
>
> Hi all
>
> Obliquely related to this thread, as part of the Edinburgh Festival
> this year, the Mason Institute (Edinburgh University School of Law)
> hosted a symposium on art, ethics and science, the main focus being on
> bio-ethics - an important cross-disciplinary domain engaging the
> social sciences, law, medicine, biological sciences and, the premise
> of this symposium, the creative arts. This is relevant to the debate
> on Yasmin as the proposition underlying the event was that art plays
> an important role in how we conceptualise, challenge and determine the
> ethical frameworks society relies on. That this is an important
> dimension of science where art often leads the way, not fearing to
> tread where others might perceive high risk.
>
> Here's the link to the event:
> http://masoninstitute.org/2013/06/20/arts-and-ethics/
>
> As it turned out the event was full to capacity and the debate
> continued for a couple of hours, getting pretty heated at times. The
> event was recorded and a written transcript will be posted to the
> website in the near future.
>
> best
>
> Simon
>
>
> On 24 Aug 2013, at 16:50, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> danny bronac and colleagues
>>
>> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin discussion as "how
>> does art science practice contribute to scientific research; sets
>> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>>
>> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the 'third
>> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O wilson's
>> consilience-
>> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly generative- i
>> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I think it
>> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist any more
>>
>> I personally think there are very good reasons to have disciplines and
>> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed to explain
>> to a nano technologist working on how to build space elevators how the
>> history of film would really help find the new approaches needed-
>> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of work
>> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be really
>> convinced
>> its worth the effort
>>
>> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
>> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and the
>> humanities
>> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book " The
>> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual change"
>> which concretely
>> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate approaches
>> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today are
>> rightfully
>> engaging the art science community ( the new european network on
>> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just been
>> launched).
>>
>> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report (
>> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-white-papers/
>> )
>> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to prior
>> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and emergence and
>> we titled
>> our report very deliberately:
>> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
>> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences, engineering, arts,
>> and design
>> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also drawing
>> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in the
>> digital age
>>
>> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from thinking of a
>> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
>> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween branches in a
>> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
>> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than networks,
>> and information flows through trees in different ways than through
>> networks,
>> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to destroy a network
>>
>> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation between
>> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
>> different communities together- in our community the art and
>> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
>> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail parties-and we now
>> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
>> together the art and technology communities around the steam engine
>> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
>> theromodynamic art never happened
>>
>> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving around
>> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid practices
>> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of Pasteur
>>
>> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my case
>> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics resulted)
>>
>>
>>
>> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more than the Two
>> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked knowledge
>> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines within an
>> evolving dynamic network
>>
>> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the concept of
>> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so firmly
>> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>>
>> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps sets us on
>> the wrong track
>>
>> roger
>>
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely because so
>> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse from my
>> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist legacy that it
>> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice, rather
>> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability of
>> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the avant-garde
>> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of departure,
>> so many artists would find the question of how their collaborative
>> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or even
>> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly unhappy
>> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>>
>> With the insertion of artistic research into the techno-scientific
>> university there are indeed new modes of practical collaboration and
>> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
>> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting collaborations have
>> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and scientist
>> are in a state of departure from their very different modes of
>> socialisation.
>>
>> Of course some people are better working across the two cultures (or
>> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are really at
>> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question can still
>> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
>> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred conversation
>> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to discourses of
>> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have been a
>> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in art-science
>> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> D
> _
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Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
http://www.utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
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>
> paul: re your blog
>
> http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
>
> i like your talking of the
>
> A New Trivium and Quadrivium- because it frames a question of
> how education should be structured- coming back to my cargo cult
> analogy- if so many of us now live in a digital cultural - as we have been
> discussing coding is as fundamental as an ability as is reading , writing
> arithmetic- if we want science and technology to be culturally embedded
> in new ways then just as billions of people know how to read and write we need
> billions of people to know how to code
This seems logical, and I would go further and say that we need to
teach the core elements of computing (more fundamental than coding)
but in a way that is amenable to non-engineers: for example, ways
to think-about and interact-with program and data structures, and
automata. For this activity, coding is a secondary translation.
As far as code is concerned, I am pleased to say that there are many
movements along this line, including those that span the "virtuality
continuum" between the purely virtual and the purely physical (tangible).
For designers and artists, Processing is a good bet for starters. For
those who are more musically inclined, I would recommend Pure
Data (PD) although Processing contains many libraries for sound.
-p
>
>
> roger
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Simon Biggs <simon@littlepig.org.uk>
> Date: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 11:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice
> contribute to successful scientific practice
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>
>
> Hi all
>
> Obliquely related to this thread, as part of the Edinburgh Festival
> this year, the Mason Institute (Edinburgh University School of Law)
> hosted a symposium on art, ethics and science, the main focus being on
> bio-ethics - an important cross-disciplinary domain engaging the
> social sciences, law, medicine, biological sciences and, the premise
> of this symposium, the creative arts. This is relevant to the debate
> on Yasmin as the proposition underlying the event was that art plays
> an important role in how we conceptualise, challenge and determine the
> ethical frameworks society relies on. That this is an important
> dimension of science where art often leads the way, not fearing to
> tread where others might perceive high risk.
>
> Here's the link to the event:
> http://masoninstitute.org/2013/06/20/arts-and-ethics/
>
> As it turned out the event was full to capacity and the debate
> continued for a couple of hours, getting pretty heated at times. The
> event was recorded and a written transcript will be posted to the
> website in the near future.
>
> best
>
> Simon
>
>
> On 24 Aug 2013, at 16:50, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> danny bronac and colleagues
>>
>> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin discussion as "how
>> does art science practice contribute to scientific research; sets
>> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>>
>> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the 'third
>> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O wilson's
>> consilience-
>> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly generative- i
>> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I think it
>> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist any more
>>
>> I personally think there are very good reasons to have disciplines and
>> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed to explain
>> to a nano technologist working on how to build space elevators how the
>> history of film would really help find the new approaches needed-
>> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of work
>> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be really
>> convinced
>> its worth the effort
>>
>> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
>> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and the
>> humanities
>> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book " The
>> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual change"
>> which concretely
>> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate approaches
>> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today are
>> rightfully
>> engaging the art science community ( the new european network on
>> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just been
>> launched).
>>
>> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report (
>> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-white-papers/
>> )
>> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to prior
>> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and emergence and
>> we titled
>> our report very deliberately:
>> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
>> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences, engineering, arts,
>> and design
>> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also drawing
>> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in the
>> digital age
>>
>> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from thinking of a
>> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
>> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween branches in a
>> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
>> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than networks,
>> and information flows through trees in different ways than through
>> networks,
>> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to destroy a network
>>
>> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation between
>> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
>> different communities together- in our community the art and
>> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
>> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail parties-and we now
>> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
>> together the art and technology communities around the steam engine
>> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
>> theromodynamic art never happened
>>
>> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving around
>> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid practices
>> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of Pasteur
>>
>> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my case
>> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics resulted)
>>
>>
>>
>> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more than the Two
>> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked knowledge
>> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines within an
>> evolving dynamic network
>>
>> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the concept of
>> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so firmly
>> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>>
>> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps sets us on
>> the wrong track
>>
>> roger
>>
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely because so
>> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse from my
>> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist legacy that it
>> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice, rather
>> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability of
>> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the avant-garde
>> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of departure,
>> so many artists would find the question of how their collaborative
>> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or even
>> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly unhappy
>> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>>
>> With the insertion of artistic research into the techno-scientific
>> university there are indeed new modes of practical collaboration and
>> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
>> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting collaborations have
>> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and scientist
>> are in a state of departure from their very different modes of
>> socialisation.
>>
>> Of course some people are better working across the two cultures (or
>> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are really at
>> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question can still
>> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
>> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred conversation
>> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to discourses of
>> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have been a
>> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in art-science
>> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> D
> _
> _______________________________________________
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> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
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>
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Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
http://www.utdallas.edu/atec/fishwick
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] how does art science collaboration practice contribute to scientific research
Greetings Yasmin,
I have been following this thread with interest, reminding me of the very
origins of computer art. Art practices can inform scientific processes vice
versa.
The Bell Research Laboratories activities during the 1960s are an example
of how artistic experimentation led to the discovery of new technologies. A
select group of scientists were asked to be creative to make something
without a set goal in mind. They were invited to experiment or play with
technology, in order to foster innovation; the results were outstanding.
Thanks to the experiments, digital photography was created by the
collaborative efforts of artist Ken Knowlton and Leon Harmon in 1966.
Another case is Purdue University Professor Aldo Giorgini (1934-1994), who
produced some of the first color and three-dimensional river simulations.
While a professor of Civil Engineering since 1967, Giorgini excelled both
as computer artist and computational hydraulics pioneer.
A good text to review with this history is Enrique Castaño's dissertation,
fully online, but unfortunately not translated:
http://www.enriquecastanos.com/tesisindice.htm
Thank you,
Esteban García
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:04 AM, <bronac@boundaryobject.org> wrote:
> Dear Roger and Yasminers
>
> You may already have seen this article at link attached - but if not then
> it may be worth having a read for some provocation relevant to recent
> discussions here.
>
> http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities
>
> Very best wishes
> Bronac
> Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
--
Esteban García
art & research
www.snebtor.org
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HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
I have been following this thread with interest, reminding me of the very
origins of computer art. Art practices can inform scientific processes vice
versa.
The Bell Research Laboratories activities during the 1960s are an example
of how artistic experimentation led to the discovery of new technologies. A
select group of scientists were asked to be creative to make something
without a set goal in mind. They were invited to experiment or play with
technology, in order to foster innovation; the results were outstanding.
Thanks to the experiments, digital photography was created by the
collaborative efforts of artist Ken Knowlton and Leon Harmon in 1966.
Another case is Purdue University Professor Aldo Giorgini (1934-1994), who
produced some of the first color and three-dimensional river simulations.
While a professor of Civil Engineering since 1967, Giorgini excelled both
as computer artist and computational hydraulics pioneer.
A good text to review with this history is Enrique Castaño's dissertation,
fully online, but unfortunately not translated:
http://www.enriquecastanos.com/tesisindice.htm
Thank you,
Esteban García
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:04 AM, <bronac@boundaryobject.org> wrote:
> Dear Roger and Yasminers
>
> You may already have seen this article at link attached - but if not then
> it may be worth having a read for some provocation relevant to recent
> discussions here.
>
> http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities
>
> Very best wishes
> Bronac
> Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
--
Esteban García
art & research
www.snebtor.org
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] how does art science collaboration practice contribute to scientific research
Dear Roger and Yasminers
You may already have seen this article at link attached - but if not then it may be worth having a read for some provocation relevant to recent discussions here.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities
Very best wishes
Bronac
Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
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HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
You may already have seen this article at link attached - but if not then it may be worth having a read for some provocation relevant to recent discussions here.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities
Very best wishes
Bronac
Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
_______________________________________________
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Monday, August 26, 2013
[Yasmin_discussions] Fwd: Towards Wrapping up this weeks yasmin discussion
"Dear Yasminers, and those you may know outside of the Yasmin network,
To contribute to wrapping up Roger's discussion this week my thought
on the matter is this:
It is imperative at this point that we have a bibliography of
peer-reviewed published articles that demonstrate instances of how art
has advanced basic science.
If those in the Yasmin network could refer to those articles as a wrap
up for this discussion it would thus make these immediately available
to the SEAD and Yasmin community and provide the start for such a
bibliography.
Such articles would not refer to how art advances creativity in
science or better education and community engagement but refer to
basic science. One takes it as a given that a broad and persistent
exposure to and participation in the arts and humanities contributes
in the most fundamental ways to creativity in science in specific and
to science education in general. The issue here, the call for
citations refers only to demonstrated advances in basic science.
As I have been assured that there are many, many such publications I
look forward to seeing those citations forthcoming here at Yasmin this
week.
Johnathan
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 1:39 AM, jonathan zilberg
> <jonathanzilberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
_______________________________________________
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Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
To contribute to wrapping up Roger's discussion this week my thought
on the matter is this:
It is imperative at this point that we have a bibliography of
peer-reviewed published articles that demonstrate instances of how art
has advanced basic science.
If those in the Yasmin network could refer to those articles as a wrap
up for this discussion it would thus make these immediately available
to the SEAD and Yasmin community and provide the start for such a
bibliography.
Such articles would not refer to how art advances creativity in
science or better education and community engagement but refer to
basic science. One takes it as a given that a broad and persistent
exposure to and participation in the arts and humanities contributes
in the most fundamental ways to creativity in science in specific and
to science education in general. The issue here, the call for
citations refers only to demonstrated advances in basic science.
As I have been assured that there are many, many such publications I
look forward to seeing those citations forthcoming here at Yasmin this
week.
Johnathan
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 1:39 AM, jonathan zilberg
> <jonathanzilberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
_______________________________________________
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Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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[Yasmin_discussions] Fwd: How does art science practice contribute to successful scientific practice
simon
You make a good point
there are several ways to develop how art-science
collaborations can be of benefit to scientific research
i have been pushing on the point of whether scientists
make discoveries they would not otherwise make because
of their art-science practice=
you raise a deeper issue of how science is embedded in culture
and how art-science practice is a powerful method of cultural
appropriation and re direction or reconceptualising of science
current priorities in science funding, or the motivations that drives
individual scientists arise in a complex set of interactions between
different parts of society= i often quote the writing of helga nowotny
who calls for a 'socially robust science' - so much of science today
is like a cargo culty- society makes use of some of the fruits of
techno science-but is not actively engaged in constructing the
frameworks in the cultural imagination= one of the reasons i
am interested in citizen science and what might be called citizen
art-science is because these involve the construction of knowledge
and as you point out it's framework- not just ethical issues but values
in general-but also societal priorities
paul: re your blog
http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
i like your talking of the
A New Trivium and Quadrivium- because it frames a question of
how education should be structured- coming back to my cargo cult
analogy- if so many of us now live in a digital cultural - as we have been
discussing coding is as fundamental as an ability as is reading , writing
arithmetic- if we want science and technology to be culturally embedded
in new ways then just as billions of people know how to read and write we need
billions of people to know how to code
roger
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Simon Biggs <simon@littlepig.org.uk>
Date: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice
contribute to successful scientific practice
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Hi all
Obliquely related to this thread, as part of the Edinburgh Festival
this year, the Mason Institute (Edinburgh University School of Law)
hosted a symposium on art, ethics and science, the main focus being on
bio-ethics - an important cross-disciplinary domain engaging the
social sciences, law, medicine, biological sciences and, the premise
of this symposium, the creative arts. This is relevant to the debate
on Yasmin as the proposition underlying the event was that art plays
an important role in how we conceptualise, challenge and determine the
ethical frameworks society relies on. That this is an important
dimension of science where art often leads the way, not fearing to
tread where others might perceive high risk.
Here's the link to the event:
http://masoninstitute.org/2013/06/20/arts-and-ethics/
As it turned out the event was full to capacity and the debate
continued for a couple of hours, getting pretty heated at times. The
event was recorded and a written transcript will be posted to the
website in the near future.
best
Simon
On 24 Aug 2013, at 16:50, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research; sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book " The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report (
> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-white-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences, engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice, rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> D
_
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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You make a good point
there are several ways to develop how art-science
collaborations can be of benefit to scientific research
i have been pushing on the point of whether scientists
make discoveries they would not otherwise make because
of their art-science practice=
you raise a deeper issue of how science is embedded in culture
and how art-science practice is a powerful method of cultural
appropriation and re direction or reconceptualising of science
current priorities in science funding, or the motivations that drives
individual scientists arise in a complex set of interactions between
different parts of society= i often quote the writing of helga nowotny
who calls for a 'socially robust science' - so much of science today
is like a cargo culty- society makes use of some of the fruits of
techno science-but is not actively engaged in constructing the
frameworks in the cultural imagination= one of the reasons i
am interested in citizen science and what might be called citizen
art-science is because these involve the construction of knowledge
and as you point out it's framework- not just ethical issues but values
in general-but also societal priorities
paul: re your blog
http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
i like your talking of the
A New Trivium and Quadrivium- because it frames a question of
how education should be structured- coming back to my cargo cult
analogy- if so many of us now live in a digital cultural - as we have been
discussing coding is as fundamental as an ability as is reading , writing
arithmetic- if we want science and technology to be culturally embedded
in new ways then just as billions of people know how to read and write we need
billions of people to know how to code
roger
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Simon Biggs <simon@littlepig.org.uk>
Date: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice
contribute to successful scientific practice
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Hi all
Obliquely related to this thread, as part of the Edinburgh Festival
this year, the Mason Institute (Edinburgh University School of Law)
hosted a symposium on art, ethics and science, the main focus being on
bio-ethics - an important cross-disciplinary domain engaging the
social sciences, law, medicine, biological sciences and, the premise
of this symposium, the creative arts. This is relevant to the debate
on Yasmin as the proposition underlying the event was that art plays
an important role in how we conceptualise, challenge and determine the
ethical frameworks society relies on. That this is an important
dimension of science where art often leads the way, not fearing to
tread where others might perceive high risk.
Here's the link to the event:
http://masoninstitute.org/2013/06/20/arts-and-ethics/
As it turned out the event was full to capacity and the debate
continued for a couple of hours, getting pretty heated at times. The
event was recorded and a written transcript will be posted to the
website in the near future.
best
Simon
On 24 Aug 2013, at 16:50, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research; sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book " The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report (
> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-white-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences, engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice, rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> D
_
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contribute to successful scientific practice
I agree with Roger, it's rather difficult, but it must be worth the
effort, otherwise, what we may get in the future are sciences without
soul, technologies faraway from any kind of humanity and arts without
any connection to the actual crafts and knowledge.
Vítor Reia
Citando roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>:
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research; sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book " The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report (
> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-white-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences, engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice, rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter
> e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
> the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear
> ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
>
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effort, otherwise, what we may get in the future are sciences without
soul, technologies faraway from any kind of humanity and arts without
any connection to the actual crafts and knowledge.
Vítor Reia
Citando roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>:
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research; sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book " The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report (
> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-white-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences, engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice, rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter
> e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
> the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear
> ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contributeto successful scientific practice
Beautifully said, Alejandro, "Artists and scientists are partners and
friends in Humanity's journey on Earth, not adversaries." But they walk and
want to walk separately, because their self-interested goals are different.
Only when they can think beyond their self-interest they can walk together,
and then many of our issues will be solved.
Rasheed Araeen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
[mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Paul
Fishwick
Sent: 25 August 2013 22:42
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contributeto
successful scientific practice
I blogged on this earlier today - I'd like any comments especially on
Bugliarello's article:
http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
At a high level, it could provide some ideas for collaboration and resolving
issues.
-p
On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:02 PM, alejandro tamayo <laimagendelmundo@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
> Hello Roger and All,
>
> I would like to express my opinion on this interesting topic which I've
been following most of the time
>
> I'm sorry to disagree, but on the contrary, I don't see any more good
reasons to keep disciplines as they are. I think humanity will feel as if a
big heavy load has been taken away from its shoulders once disciplines, as
we know them, are vanished and we are confronted back again with the basics.
New ways of dealing with the world will appear as well of new ways of
questioning and learning. The question for me is not if what the arts is
doing is beneficial in any way to science or viceversa. The question should
be broader, do we really need to keep emphasizing these separations?
>
> Borrowing from Roger's example, I don't see either how the history of film
would help to build a space elevator, but at the same time I don't see why
we would need one in the first place. I have to add that I do share a
passion and love for thinking about outer space.
>
> Anyway, my point is that I believe we are missing the point. Science and
Art are not opposed practices or ways of thinking. What determines them, and
have been shaping them so far, are political and cultural agendas. But Art
and Science are in their essence free from them. We just need to reclaim
them (this is where I find an echo with Brian's claim to include the other
A). Artists and scientists are partners and friends in Humanity's journey on
Earth, not adversaries.
>
> Love,
> Alejandro
>
> ...
> www.thepopshop.org
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 8/24/13, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contribute to
successful scientific practice
> To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Received: Saturday, August 24, 2013, 10:50 AM
>
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin
> discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research;
> sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the
> 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O
> wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly
> generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I
> think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist
> any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have
> disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed
> to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space
> elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches
> needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of
> work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be
> really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and
> the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book "
> The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual
> change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate
> approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today
> are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european
> network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just
> been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report
> (
>
http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-whit
e-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to
> prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and
> emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences,
> engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also
> drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in
> the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from
> thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween
> branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than
> networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than
> through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to
> destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation
> between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art
> and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail
> parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam
> engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving
> around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid
> practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of
> Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my
> case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics
> resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more
> than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked
> knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines
> within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the
> concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so
> firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps
> sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely
> because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse
> from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist
> legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice,
> rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability
> of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the
> avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of
> departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their
> collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or
> even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly
> unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the
> techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical
> collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting
> collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and
> scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes
> of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two
> cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are
> really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question
> can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred
> conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to
> discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have
> been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in
> art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that
> IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"),
> enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found
> further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way
> down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter
> password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the
> page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page,
> find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or
> off.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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password in the fields found further down the page.
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e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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friends in Humanity's journey on Earth, not adversaries." But they walk and
want to walk separately, because their self-interested goals are different.
Only when they can think beyond their self-interest they can walk together,
and then many of our issues will be solved.
Rasheed Araeen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
[mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Paul
Fishwick
Sent: 25 August 2013 22:42
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contributeto
successful scientific practice
I blogged on this earlier today - I'd like any comments especially on
Bugliarello's article:
http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
At a high level, it could provide some ideas for collaboration and resolving
issues.
-p
On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:02 PM, alejandro tamayo <laimagendelmundo@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
> Hello Roger and All,
>
> I would like to express my opinion on this interesting topic which I've
been following most of the time
>
> I'm sorry to disagree, but on the contrary, I don't see any more good
reasons to keep disciplines as they are. I think humanity will feel as if a
big heavy load has been taken away from its shoulders once disciplines, as
we know them, are vanished and we are confronted back again with the basics.
New ways of dealing with the world will appear as well of new ways of
questioning and learning. The question for me is not if what the arts is
doing is beneficial in any way to science or viceversa. The question should
be broader, do we really need to keep emphasizing these separations?
>
> Borrowing from Roger's example, I don't see either how the history of film
would help to build a space elevator, but at the same time I don't see why
we would need one in the first place. I have to add that I do share a
passion and love for thinking about outer space.
>
> Anyway, my point is that I believe we are missing the point. Science and
Art are not opposed practices or ways of thinking. What determines them, and
have been shaping them so far, are political and cultural agendas. But Art
and Science are in their essence free from them. We just need to reclaim
them (this is where I find an echo with Brian's claim to include the other
A). Artists and scientists are partners and friends in Humanity's journey on
Earth, not adversaries.
>
> Love,
> Alejandro
>
> ...
> www.thepopshop.org
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 8/24/13, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contribute to
successful scientific practice
> To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Received: Saturday, August 24, 2013, 10:50 AM
>
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin
> discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research;
> sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the
> 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O
> wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly
> generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I
> think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist
> any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have
> disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed
> to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space
> elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches
> needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of
> work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be
> really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and
> the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book "
> The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual
> change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate
> approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today
> are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european
> network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just
> been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report
> (
>
http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-whit
e-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to
> prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and
> emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences,
> engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also
> drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in
> the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from
> thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween
> branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than
> networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than
> through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to
> destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation
> between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art
> and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail
> parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam
> engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving
> around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid
> practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of
> Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my
> case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics
> resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more
> than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked
> knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines
> within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the
> concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so
> firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps
> sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely
> because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse
> from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist
> legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice,
> rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability
> of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the
> avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of
> departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their
> collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or
> even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly
> unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the
> techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical
> collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting
> collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and
> scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes
> of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two
> cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are
> really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question
> can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred
> conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to
> discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have
> been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in
> art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that
> IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"),
> enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found
> further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way
> down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter
> password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the
> page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page,
> find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or
> off.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
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HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your
e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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Sunday, August 25, 2013
[Yasmin_discussions] (no subject)
Yasminers
Greetings- I am moderator this week- from Dallas
but Mediterranean in spirit !
we will wrap up the current discussion on the
yasmin discussion list on whether arts-science
collaborations contribute to the scientif research=
please put in a last word !
Next week Dimitris Charitos will moderate a discussion
on Hybrid Cities as a follow up to the Hybrid Cities
conference in Athens:
http://uranus.media.uoa.gr/hc2/
Reminders:
we dont approve too many posts a day- so if you
have submitted a post that hasnt appeared yet-be
patient.
If you are a new YASMIN list member- drop the list
an email introducing yourself and your interests if you
havent dont this already
Roger Malina
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
Greetings- I am moderator this week- from Dallas
but Mediterranean in spirit !
we will wrap up the current discussion on the
yasmin discussion list on whether arts-science
collaborations contribute to the scientif research=
please put in a last word !
Next week Dimitris Charitos will moderate a discussion
on Hybrid Cities as a follow up to the Hybrid Cities
conference in Athens:
http://uranus.media.uoa.gr/hc2/
Reminders:
we dont approve too many posts a day- so if you
have submitted a post that hasnt appeared yet-be
patient.
If you are a new YASMIN list member- drop the list
an email introducing yourself and your interests if you
havent dont this already
Roger Malina
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
Re: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contribute to successful scientific practice
I blogged on this earlier today - I'd like any comments especially on Bugliarello's article:
http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
At a high level, it could provide some ideas for collaboration and resolving
issues.
-p
On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:02 PM, alejandro tamayo <laimagendelmundo@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Hello Roger and All,
>
> I would like to express my opinion on this interesting topic which I've been following most of the time
>
> I'm sorry to disagree, but on the contrary, I don't see any more good reasons to keep disciplines as they are. I think humanity will feel as if a big heavy load has been taken away from its shoulders once disciplines, as we know them, are vanished and we are confronted back again with the basics. New ways of dealing with the world will appear as well of new ways of questioning and learning. The question for me is not if what the arts is doing is beneficial in any way to science or viceversa. The question should be broader, do we really need to keep emphasizing these separations?
>
> Borrowing from Roger's example, I don't see either how the history of film would help to build a space elevator, but at the same time I don't see why we would need one in the first place. I have to add that I do share a passion and love for thinking about outer space.
>
> Anyway, my point is that I believe we are missing the point. Science and Art are not opposed practices or ways of thinking. What determines them, and have been shaping them so far, are political and cultural agendas. But Art and Science are in their essence free from them. We just need to reclaim them (this is where I find an echo with Brian's claim to include the other A). Artists and scientists are partners and friends in Humanity's journey on Earth, not adversaries.
>
> Love,
> Alejandro
>
> ...
> www.thepopshop.org
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 8/24/13, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contribute to successful scientific practice
> To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Received: Saturday, August 24, 2013, 10:50 AM
>
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin
> discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research;
> sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the
> 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O
> wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly
> generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I
> think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist
> any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have
> disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed
> to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space
> elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches
> needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of
> work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be
> really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and
> the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book "
> The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual
> change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate
> approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today
> are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european
> network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just
> been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report
> (
> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-white-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to
> prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and
> emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences,
> engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also
> drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in
> the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from
> thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween
> branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than
> networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than
> through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to
> destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation
> between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art
> and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail
> parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam
> engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving
> around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid
> practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of
> Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my
> case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics
> resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more
> than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked
> knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines
> within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the
> concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so
> firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps
> sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely
> because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse
> from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist
> legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice,
> rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability
> of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the
> avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of
> departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their
> collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or
> even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly
> unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the
> techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical
> collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting
> collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and
> scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes
> of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two
> cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are
> really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question
> can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred
> conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to
> discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have
> been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in
> art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that
> IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"),
> enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found
> further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way
> down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter
> password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the
> page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page,
> find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or
> off.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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http://creative-automata.com/2013/08/25/a-new-trivium-and-quadrivium/
At a high level, it could provide some ideas for collaboration and resolving
issues.
-p
On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:02 PM, alejandro tamayo <laimagendelmundo@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Hello Roger and All,
>
> I would like to express my opinion on this interesting topic which I've been following most of the time
>
> I'm sorry to disagree, but on the contrary, I don't see any more good reasons to keep disciplines as they are. I think humanity will feel as if a big heavy load has been taken away from its shoulders once disciplines, as we know them, are vanished and we are confronted back again with the basics. New ways of dealing with the world will appear as well of new ways of questioning and learning. The question for me is not if what the arts is doing is beneficial in any way to science or viceversa. The question should be broader, do we really need to keep emphasizing these separations?
>
> Borrowing from Roger's example, I don't see either how the history of film would help to build a space elevator, but at the same time I don't see why we would need one in the first place. I have to add that I do share a passion and love for thinking about outer space.
>
> Anyway, my point is that I believe we are missing the point. Science and Art are not opposed practices or ways of thinking. What determines them, and have been shaping them so far, are political and cultural agendas. But Art and Science are in their essence free from them. We just need to reclaim them (this is where I find an echo with Brian's claim to include the other A). Artists and scientists are partners and friends in Humanity's journey on Earth, not adversaries.
>
> Love,
> Alejandro
>
> ...
> www.thepopshop.org
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 8/24/13, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] How does art science practice contribute to successful scientific practice
> To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Received: Saturday, August 24, 2013, 10:50 AM
>
> danny bronac and colleagues
>
> I agree that the way that I have phrased the yasmin
> discussion as "how
> does art science practice contribute to scientific research;
> sets
> up the very dichotomy I am arguing against
>
> but I also have a deep problem as does with Danny with the
> 'third
> space' discourse- brockman etl al's third culture , E O
> wilson's
> consilience-
> i am just not convinced this approach is interestingly
> generative- i
> am less concerned about its positivist heritage but that I
> think it
> contextualises our activities in a world that doesnt exist
> any more
>
> I personally think there are very good reasons to have
> disciplines and
> that we train discplinary experts - i would be hard pressed
> to explain
> to a nano technologist working on how to build space
> elevators how the
> history of film would really help find the new approaches
> needed-
> except in some very vague theory of creativity- its a lot of
> work
> bringing different disciplines together and you have to be
> really
> convinced
> its worth the effort
>
> on the other hand there are some hard problems ( science of
> consciousness ?) where connections between the sciences and
> the
> humanities
> are generative. I am just reading Randall Collins' book "
> The
> sociology of philosophies; a global theory of intellectual
> change"
> which concretely
> shows how communities of practice bring together disparate
> approaches
> to tackle hard problems- and the cognitive sciences today
> are
> rightfully
> engaging the art science community ( the new european
> network on
> Cognitive Innovation- COGNOVO www.cognovo.edu has just
> been
> launched).
>
> When we were working on the SEAD white papers final report
> (
> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/draft-overview-of-a-report-on-the-sead-white-papers/
> )
> we very very naturally found ourselves tying our thinking to
> prior
> movements in systems theory, cybernetics, complexity and
> emergence and
> we titled
> our report very deliberately:
> Steps to an Ecology of Networked Knowledge and Innovation:
> Enabling new forms of collaboration among sciences,
> engineering, arts,
> and design
> in hommage to bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind but also
> drawing
> ongoldberg and davidsen's future of learning institutions in
> the
> digital age
>
> we had somewhat of a gestalt switch when we moved from
> thinking of a
> Tree of Knowledge ( one of whose branches in STEM)
> to a Network of Knowledge- you make connections beween
> branches in a
> tree in a different way that between nodes in a network,
> tree structures grow topologically in different ways than
> networks,
> and information flows through trees in different ways than
> through
> networks,
> to cut down a tree you do it in a different way than to
> destroy a network
>
> in a dynamic evolving network of knowledge the separation
> between
> nodes evolves as hard problems bring researchers from
> different communities together- in our community the art
> and
> technology movement brought into proximity researchers that
> 20 years before would barely have met at cocktail
> parties-and we now
> have industries based on computer arts= but bringing
> together the art and technology communities around the steam
> engine
> would not have been very generative and to my knowledge
> theromodynamic art never happened
>
> today the art and biology community of practice is thriving
> around
> deep issues of the nature of life etc- and we now see hybrid
> practices
> in a way that would have made little sense in the age of
> Pasteur
>
> in some cases forrmerly separate disciplines merge ( in my
> case
> astronomy became so joined with physics that astrophysics
> resulted)
>
>
>
> anyway- i dont like the Third Culture discourse any more
> than the Two
> Cultures Discourse- and feel we need to develop networked
> knowledge
> metaphors and language and think in terms of disciplines
> within an
> evolving dynamic network
>
> this line of reason is one of the reasons that perhaps the
> concept of
> "STEM' is one that is no longer useful because it is so
> firmly
> perched in a tree of knowledge metaphor
>
> and why the way I phrased this yasmin discussion perhaps
> sets us on
> the wrong track
>
> roger
>
>
> Hi all
>
> It is indeed old ground but always fruitful precisely
> because so
> intractable. The limitations of the third space discourse
> from my
> point of view are mostly that it carries the positivist
> legacy that it
> is possible or desirable to define new spaces for practice,
> rather
> than pursuing better descriptions of the incommensurability
> of
> practices and discourses. Critical art practices of the
> avant-garde
> have traditionally worked in a more negative direction of
> departure,
> so many artists would find the question of how their
> collaborative
> practices contribute to scientific research pointless or
> even
> offensive (it is also true that many would find it similarly
> unhappy
> to be asked how their practice contributes to art history).
>
> With the insertion of artistic research into the
> techno-scientific
> university there are indeed new modes of practical
> collaboration and
> interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary practices being
> institutionalised, for myself the most interesting
> collaborations have
> had a kind of indisciplined quality where both artist and
> scientist
> are in a state of departure from their very different modes
> of
> socialisation.
>
> Of course some people are better working across the two
> cultures (or
> more than two) than others but it's hard to believe we are
> really at
> any state of departure from that paradigm when the question
> can still
> be asked "How Can History of Science Matter to Scientists?"
> Maienschein et al, Isis, 2008, 99:341-349. My preferred
> conversation
> is "how can art-science collaboration contribute to
> discourses of
> artistic autonomy and interrogation of form"? Yes there have
> been a
> few interesting interventions made there but the hyphen in
> art-science
> is far from disappearing and there's nothing wrong with that
> IMO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Danny
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"),
> enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found
> further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way
> down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter
> password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the
> page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page,
> find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or
> off.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Chair, ACM SIGSIM
Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
The University of Texas at Dallas
Arts & Technology
800 West Campbell Road, AT10
Richardson, TX 75080-3021
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] value systems
i am doing multi media arts via out of fashion softwares and via their
creativ new experiments. Namely i all my new visuals thru freehand 9 inside
uts and into them go my few decades earlier photogram visuals
please see flickr.com/teomanmadra
the second point is as photo materials i can market them at photovalues
But their visual qualities are superb
Because graphic world my freehand erect lines are completely non existing
and less in modernism via contemporary wall stickers at one
metersquare sizes
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Paul Fishwick <metaphorz@gmail.com> wrote:
> To All for discussion:
>
> One of the perceived dividing lines for cultures and domains is with
> value. We all value things differently. Often the values are not binary.
> It is not that I don't like X and you do, but rather that we both like it,
> but you like it more than I do (e.g., I might rank it with a 3 and you
> might rank it with a 9 with 10 being the highest value).
>
> About six months ago, I read "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People
> are Divided by Politics and Religion". Even though politics and
> religion are not our topic of discussion, the way in which Haidt presented
> value systems was interesting and informative.
>
> I know that my value system may be similar to some colleagues, and
> very different from others. Even when looking at the same object or
> experiencing the same event.
>
> Categorical divisions may not be useful, or could be detrimental, but
> as we debate, let us also talk about what we find most interesting.
> What we value. We may pencil in different numbers on the scale.
>
> -p
> >
>
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Chair, ACM SIGSIM
> Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
> The University of Texas at Dallas
> Arts & Technology
> 800 West Campbell Road, AT10
> Richardson, TX 75080-3021
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
creativ new experiments. Namely i all my new visuals thru freehand 9 inside
uts and into them go my few decades earlier photogram visuals
please see flickr.com/teomanmadra
the second point is as photo materials i can market them at photovalues
But their visual qualities are superb
Because graphic world my freehand erect lines are completely non existing
and less in modernism via contemporary wall stickers at one
metersquare sizes
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Paul Fishwick <metaphorz@gmail.com> wrote:
> To All for discussion:
>
> One of the perceived dividing lines for cultures and domains is with
> value. We all value things differently. Often the values are not binary.
> It is not that I don't like X and you do, but rather that we both like it,
> but you like it more than I do (e.g., I might rank it with a 3 and you
> might rank it with a 9 with 10 being the highest value).
>
> About six months ago, I read "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People
> are Divided by Politics and Religion". Even though politics and
> religion are not our topic of discussion, the way in which Haidt presented
> value systems was interesting and informative.
>
> I know that my value system may be similar to some colleagues, and
> very different from others. Even when looking at the same object or
> experiencing the same event.
>
> Categorical divisions may not be useful, or could be detrimental, but
> as we debate, let us also talk about what we find most interesting.
> What we value. We may pencil in different numbers on the scale.
>
> -p
> >
>
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Chair, ACM SIGSIM
> Distinguished Chair of Arts & Technology and Professor of Computer Science
> The University of Texas at Dallas
> Arts & Technology
> 800 West Campbell Road, AT10
> Richardson, TX 75080-3021
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
Saturday, August 24, 2013
Re: [Yasmin_discussions] how does art science collaboration practice contribute to scientific research
Dear List
Fascinating to read all of these responses! I have to admit I am a very big fan of disciplinary differences and also of pushing against them to test the boundaries (the hyphen for me is the space-in-between).
I find a few contradictions in some of the points made - will probably unravel these at some stage in future...I'd love to know if there is another term we might use that encompasses what we mean without being mystical or using innovation speak which often sounds woolly also..
Roger - just in case I didn't make myself clear in first email: I didn't think the question you set wasn't worth answering just that there have been many responses already in other contexts most of them Leonardo related and I had thought we already had enough examples of where art-science collaborations bring value. But perhaps not! Or perhaps the problem still remains the one I coordinated the White Paper about for SEAD - the lack of any long-term memory...which I know we will be debating a little later on this list. By the way, may be helpful to know the Wellcome Trust in London is doing interviews with several scientists it has had sustained contact with through its Sciart programme since the beginning - to discuss the very question you posed. I don't know if they will ever be published however.
All best to all
Bronac
Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
-----Original Message-----
From: David Haley <D.Haley@mmu.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 18:17:26
To: <bronac@boundaryobject.org><bronac@boundaryobject.org>; YASMIN DISCUSSIONS<yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Cc: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS<yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] how does art science collaboration practice contribute to scientific research
Bronac, hi
I agree with all your observations. Indeed the third way (culture, included middle) is now a common theme associated with Transdisciplinarity. Of course, many misinterpretations and much confusion surround this near-mistical quality, but it does provide some interesting debate in the process.
All the best
David
PS. I hope you are well.
Dr David Haley. Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Aug 2013, at 13:39, "bronac@boundaryobject.org" <bronac@boundaryobject.org> wrote:
> Hi Roger, Brian and Yasmin colleagues
>
> I've been following this trail (feeling a little that perhaps we're going over familiar ground). But re: is the art-science category one of the difficulties? At the recent launch of 'Parasite' in Cambridge the speaker from the Sanger Genomics Research Institute said that for her it represented a perfect example of 'the Third Culture' (..caps mine). I was quite taken by this bid to go beyond the binary and would be keen to see this discussed further...what might be the possible limitations of such a descriptor? It opens things up I feel rather than closing down.
> All best
>
> Bronac
> Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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"Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer "
_______________________________________________
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Fascinating to read all of these responses! I have to admit I am a very big fan of disciplinary differences and also of pushing against them to test the boundaries (the hyphen for me is the space-in-between).
I find a few contradictions in some of the points made - will probably unravel these at some stage in future...I'd love to know if there is another term we might use that encompasses what we mean without being mystical or using innovation speak which often sounds woolly also..
Roger - just in case I didn't make myself clear in first email: I didn't think the question you set wasn't worth answering just that there have been many responses already in other contexts most of them Leonardo related and I had thought we already had enough examples of where art-science collaborations bring value. But perhaps not! Or perhaps the problem still remains the one I coordinated the White Paper about for SEAD - the lack of any long-term memory...which I know we will be debating a little later on this list. By the way, may be helpful to know the Wellcome Trust in London is doing interviews with several scientists it has had sustained contact with through its Sciart programme since the beginning - to discuss the very question you posed. I don't know if they will ever be published however.
All best to all
Bronac
Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
-----Original Message-----
From: David Haley <D.Haley@mmu.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 18:17:26
To: <bronac@boundaryobject.org><bronac@boundaryobject.org>; YASMIN DISCUSSIONS<yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Cc: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS<yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] how does art science collaboration practice contribute to scientific research
Bronac, hi
I agree with all your observations. Indeed the third way (culture, included middle) is now a common theme associated with Transdisciplinarity. Of course, many misinterpretations and much confusion surround this near-mistical quality, but it does provide some interesting debate in the process.
All the best
David
PS. I hope you are well.
Dr David Haley. Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Aug 2013, at 13:39, "bronac@boundaryobject.org" <bronac@boundaryobject.org> wrote:
> Hi Roger, Brian and Yasmin colleagues
>
> I've been following this trail (feeling a little that perhaps we're going over familiar ground). But re: is the art-science category one of the difficulties? At the recent launch of 'Parasite' in Cambridge the speaker from the Sanger Genomics Research Institute said that for her it represented a perfect example of 'the Third Culture' (..caps mine). I was quite taken by this bid to go beyond the binary and would be keen to see this discussed further...what might be the possible limitations of such a descriptor? It opens things up I feel rather than closing down.
> All best
>
> Bronac
> Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
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