Wednesday, May 24, 2017

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Živa,

Thank you for your reply. You've brought good issues forward. I must think!

Heading off to Shanghai tomorrow — and I can tell you that I don't speak very well.

The good news is that we have a touch of Mediterranean culture at the Tongji University College of Design and Innovation. One of our graduates launched a very successful restaurant, then another, and a few more. When we built our new building, Dean Lou Yongqi had a great idea — he asked the grad to build a location on campus with a break in prices for students and staff. That's what happened.

The pizza is excellent — based on the Mediterranean pizza, thin crust, crispy and delightful. Despite the fact that I live in Europe, I can't get pizza that good here in Sweden. Some days, I don't even get to my office. I stop for an espresso on the way, then I use the WiFi to do my work, then it is time for lunch, then another coffee. People see me and stop in to talk, and by then, I have found that the day is over. So I eat dinner and then go back to my hotel.

The café also caters our conferences. So if you visit us at D&I … you have more to look forward to than good conversation. The conversation will be good, and there will be more than conversation.



> On May 24, 2017, at 11:03 PM, Ziva Ljubec <> wrote:


> Choice of language on the side, there are some other lost or loose points
> in translations of my mind and I'm very glad Ken examines and challenges
> every proposition thoroughly. As you say Ken: "Artists may make imaginative
> propositions, but I have yet to see an artist make rigorous use of digital
> neural nets to test and compare the outcomes of different parameters. It is
> true that some scientific disciplines don't overlap. We already know this."
> Perhaps it is nonetheless worth the emphasis: more than not overlapping,
> scientific disciplines leave uncovered territories behind. There is an
> "undisciplined zone" of unknown proportions, conceivably claimed only by
> transdisciplinarians. We may know many interdisciplinarians borrowing
> methods from one discipline or another, but who are the
> transdisciplinarians, by broadest, far stretched definition, transcending
> the methods of any scientific discipline?
> Take a researcher on the brink of her significant scientific discovery, she
> enters the zone where no previous method holds, she needs to carve her own
> path as she advances, and rather than blindly relying on the existent
> methodology, she is relying on her intuition. She works her way as a
> prodigious artist does - all along transmuting the "methods". Whether she
> is a scientist or an artist on the brink of her discovery is not the right
> question to ask. These categories become obsolete when one enters the
> transdisciplinary zone.
> If you entertain that thought, imagination plays a primary role. But of
> course you expect more, we all, in fact, simply hope that the researcher
> returns from the transdisciplinary into a disciplined mode of reasoning and
> readjusts our current methods. You go further and draw a line: "It is
> useful to distinguish between imaginary propositions and well argued
> proposals. Imaginary propositions help us to understand why something is
> important in terms of emotion, feeling, and ethics. In this sense,
> imaginary futures explain "Why." Well argued proposals offer responsible
> ways forward toward the world as we want it to be. In this sense, solid
> proposals explain "How."
> I wouldn't delineate it quite that way. The imaginary solutions are the
> result of the ever changing approach, intuitive, but not necessarily, in
> the common sense, ethical or emotional, they are rather breaking the
> boundaries of the common sense, exposing the alien and uncommon in us. Most
> importantly the imaginary is not a how-to generalized solution to a set of
> problems but rather the know-how of action and reaction at every encounter
> with the problem.
> In short to answer your challenge: I haven't seen "an artist make rigorous
> use of digital neural nets" either but already some researchers in AI seem
> to just go with the flow, experimenting outside disciplines, inventing new
> methods, allowing even their creations to invent their own methods, which
> creators themselves already have a difficulty understanding. We have to try
> and understand what these creations understand about us for so many
> unsettling reasons, but we also want to understand what they understand out
> of pure innocent curiosity.


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