Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Ken,

As I see it, there is both too much and too little in your posts. [...] And
> there is too little concise, careful description that allows me to
> understand what you are actually writing about.
>

Yours is an opinion, of course. I respect it without agreeing. We make
available papers, books, workbooks, data, software, methods, each with
different scopes, objectives and levels of detail, types of narratives,
synthesis etc.

Long posts? Yes: I like to write long posts. Feel free to skip them or read
them. From the posts you can access many of the things we do, which openly
disprove your statements about me.

So I don't really know what you're talking about.

> This thread began as something entirely different — we are no longer
> discussing "the new and history." We have moved over to the question of how
> we ought to write up art-science in an interesting, responsible way.
>

I really have a hard time have tried so many times to bring this part of
the discussion to the original topic, with no success.

As you maybe have noticed, I have stopped replying to this thread of the
conversation, and opened up new ones, on topic. I have answered this one
only because I was directly addressed.

All the best
Salvatore

ᐧ
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[Yasmin_discussions] Inscribed with an Iron Tool

Friends,

Roger Malina's invitation to people older than 60 to offer comments this week have me thinking.

At the moment, I am in Shanghai. China is one of the world's oldest nations — and one of the world's youngest great powers. We are in the middle of a shift in geo-political strength. Part of this has to do with the inexorable balance of power that goes to human capital. The first 9,500 years of recorded human history saw the greatest part of the world's wealth, its largest populations, and its most powerful nations in the east. This changed 500 years ago.

The reasons for this change included science. It also included empire-building, and the rare predatory capacity of the small European kingdoms swiftly to visit and conquer foreign lands that they incorporated into the new empires that would dominate the world for five centuries. That era is coming to a close, so it's a moment to reflect on the past. I wrote about some of these issues in a book chapter titled "Cities in the Information Age." You can download a .pdf reprint from URL:

https://www.academia.edu/5893891/Friedman._1998._Cities_in_the_Information_Age

When I wrote this 20 years ago, I was much more optimistic about the future of the world and the role that technology could play in it than I am now. Still, the story is interesting.

What was I wrong about? Nearly everything that the future would finally bring. When Rob Hopkins interviewed Jørgen Randers in 2012 about his then-recent book, 2052, Randers described our troubles as "… the story of humanity not rising to the occasion." You can read the interview at URL:

https://www.transitionculture.org/2012/08/17/

That's another story.

Pier Luigi wrote, "History and cultural heritage can become key elements from cultural, historical, social as well as economic viewpoints, they can act as observatories of issues which combine past, present and future, fostering new economic and professional areas."

Roger asked, "How in the [Mediterranean Rim] do we use the thinking about heritage to build a cultural memory around the medrim for the new digital communities that are now being built? How do we leave traces of what is happening so our descendants will be able to draw on our contemporary knowledges ? How do we build the new kinds of mechanisms necessary for building new systems for digital culture heritage?"

One answer to this question involves books and reading, and a lively engagement with history.

As the conversations evolve on this list, I am puzzled by the absence of any serious reference to the important work done on these topics by historians and cultural historians.

Fernand Braudel, Marc Bloch, and the Annalistes all address the Mediterranean. Daniel Boorstin's general approach to history and his specific overarching approach in The Discoverers, The Seekers, and The Creators necessarily focuses in great part on the Mediterranean.

The explosion of Greek civilization crossed the Great Green to settle on the shores of Asia and to plant colonies in the East. The Hellenic civilization that followed Alexander's empire did much the same. So did the first great flowering of Islam.

In a discussion of the Mediterranean Rim, I'm amazed to realize that no one has looked at the brilliant works of study and innovative thinking that people have written over the past century. Our entire conversation has been about technology and art today. The overwhelming focus on technological applications to the neglect of our common human heritage is a serious failing of the art-science community. Over the past 10,000 years — longer really, but I'll settle for 10,000 years — human beings have shaped the Mediterranean Rim.

I don't argue that we should replace new media with Medea. I do say that we are impoverished unless we have both.

"Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
that they were inscribed with an iron tool on
or engraved in rock forever!"

— Job 19:23-24

There is more to life than silicon.

Yours,

Ken Friedman

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | 设计 She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/

Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia

Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn

—

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[Yasmin_discussions] R: Re: art*science 2017 - The New and History

Hallo Pier Luigi and hallo Yasminers. I don't really know if My last mail got to You. Can You please answer? If not, I Will send it again, maybe focusing better on What the discussion is about.I live in Bologna and concerned about  laws applied to social, tecnological and art changes. I am always glad about new Projects. So please, ask me if You need me.Actually, I focused My mail on how scientists often hide behind the big structures they work for and inside their  labs. So they often release only institutional answers about the objects of their scientific investigations. So, maybe information turns to be kind of manipulated, sometimes. That's why I Think our artists should become more investigative about science and scientists should come out of their labs.
Thank You for reading me. 
Alessia 

Inviato da Yahoo Mail su Android

Il mar, 30 mag, 2017 alle 15:26, Pier Luigi Capucci<plc@noemalab.org> ha scritto: Hello Yasminers,

thank you all for making this discussion very interesting - I hope that more people, both among the invited respondents and among the Yasmin members, will be involved. I know that some of them are participating to the "Taboo - Transgression - Transcendence in Art & Science" conference, in Corfù, http://avarts.ionio.gr/ttt/

I'll go through all your posts - since May 15 until May 30 they are roughly 45! - and I'll try to make some kind of a digest on the many topics which have been raised. I'll post it later to  Yasmin. Any help here is welcome :-)

My suggestion now is to get back to the original discussion topic, which is:

"Countries in the Mediterranean Rim, and more in general European countries, have a long history and heritage in art and culture, which can be shared and revamped through new disciplines, sciences and technologies. History and cultural heritage must go beyond the status of precious and extraordinary assets just considered in a logic of past preservation. They can be projected into the future fostering the "new", "innovation," promoting new projects and agreements, through arts, scientific disciplines and technologies. History and cultural heritage can become key elements from cultural, historical, social as well as economic viewpoints, they can act as observatories of issues which combine past, present and future, fostering new economic and professional areas."

I know that among our invited respondents and Yasmin members there are artists who have been or are working in this field, for instance the very interesting work of Katerina Karoussos in Greece. I think it would be important to know some more about what artists in the Mediterranean regions are making in connecting history to science and technology.

I am also thinking that, starting from this Yasmin discussion's topic, we could collect papers for a structured, formal and scientific publication that Yasmin could present as a survey/research on art/science issues in the Mediterranean rim. The eBook format (PDF, epub) would be perfect for this project. What do you think about? Is anybody interested in helping?

But now let's go back to the discussion again! I know it is just poor text, but despite all the right limitations you pointed out - language, structures, technology biases, and so on - it is anyway a medium which allows us to match, share and discuss different viewpoints, attitudes, activities, ideas, visions, cultures. ;-)

«If you give me a coin and I give you a coin, each of us has one coin. If you give me an idea and I give you an idea, each of us has two ideas» Silvio Ceccato (1914 - 1997).

Thank you all for participating!

Pier Luigi

--
Pier Luigi Capucci
via Rovigo, 8
48016 Milano Marittima (RA)
ITALY
Tel.: +39 (0) 544 976156
Mobile: +39 348 3889844
e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
web: http://capucci.org
skype: plcapucci

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[Yasmin_discussions] trans-generational discussion about cultural heritage in mediterranean region digital culture.

Pier Luigi
thanks for helping us refocus the discussion although as you
say the discussion has been interesting and vigorous

I would to take your sentence:

"History and cultural heritage can become key elements from cultural,
historical, social as well as economic viewpoints, they can act as
observatories of issues which combine past, present and future,
fostering new economic and professional areas."

How in the medrim do we use the thinking about heritage to build a
cultural memory
around the medrim for the new digital communities that are now being
built ? How do we leave traces of what is happening so our descendents
will be able to draw on our contemporary knowledges ? how do we build
the new kinds of mechanisms necessary
for buulding new systems for digital culture heritage?

One of the simple things that Nina Czegledy has been advocating is
inter-generational communication. In physical space old people are
often physically separated from young people ( i was luch to grow up
with one of my grandmothers). In school systems we segregate people by
age- but how can one be apprenticed or mentored ? On line there is no
good physical reason for age segregation, but the social dynamics tend
to promote homophily.

Its interesting to note that in this discussion inter-generational
communication is alive and well: here are three people who have been
in the discussion:

Liliane Lijn (born 22 December 1939),[1] is an American-born artist
who was the first woman artist to work with kinetic text (Poem
Machines), exploring both light and text as early as 1962. She has
lived in London since 1966.[2]

Ken Friedman, (born September 19, 1949 in New London, Connecticut) was
a member of Fluxus, an international laboratory for experimental art,
architecture, design, and music. Friedman joined Fluxus in 1966 as the
youngest member of the classic Fluxus group.[1]

Jasia Reichardt was born in Warsaw, Poland, in 1933. In the 1950s she
was editor of Art News and Review, a weekly arts magazine.[citation
needed] From 1963 to 1971 she was assistant director of the Institute
of Contemporary Arts in London.[1] In 1968 she curated the Cybernetic
Serendipity exhibition at the ICA,[2] and was editor of Cybernetic
serendipity: the computer and the arts, a special edition of Studio
International magazine, which was published at the same time.[3] (
jasia you havent chimed in on this discussion.

And of course we have many emerging professionals on the list under
the age of 30-for instance two students doing phds with me
Hi Yvan:
Yvan Tina is a PhD candidate at The University of Aix-Marseille and at
The University of Texas at Dallas where he is investigating the
possible convergences of artificial life and biotechnologies with the
performance arts

hi alex:
Alex Garcia Topete is a writer and filmmaker, currently pursuing a
doctorate degree in Arts, Technology and Emerging Communications at
the University of Texas at Dallas, focusing on multidisciplinary
collaboration methodologies. He has more than 10 years of experience
working in the media industry in Mexico and the United States, having
worked for Sony Pictures Television International, National Public
Radio, and Mexico's Televisa, among others.

and others in mid career:
Claudine Dussollier studied Geography. She has had various working
experiences in the field of immigration, urban, social and cultural
development.

I have a proposal- for the next week I suggest that only people older
than 60 years older
will have their comments posted.

Then the next week only people on YASMIN who are under 30.

And then the people on yasmin between the age of 30 and 60.

How do each of these generations view the question of cultural
heritage in the context
of mediterranean region digital culture ?

Si I propose for the next three weeks- we ask you to state your age
group at the beginning of your comment
and then we will approve the posts by generation !

Roger Malina

Roger Malina

Roger F Malina
is in Paris- +33680459447
blog: malina.diatrope.com

On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Pier Luigi Capucci <plc@noemalab.org> wrote:
> Hello Yasminers,
>
> thank you all for making this discussion very interesting - I hope that more people, both among the invited respondents and among the Yasmin members, will be involved. I know that some of them are participating to the "Taboo - Transgression - Transcendence in Art & Science" conference, in Corfù, http://avarts.ionio.gr/ttt/
>
> I'll go through all your posts - since May 15 until May 30 they are roughly 45! - and I'll try to make some kind of a digest on the many topics which have been raised. I'll post it later to Yasmin. Any help here is welcome :-)
>
> My suggestion now is to get back to the original discussion topic, which is:
>
> "Countries in the Mediterranean Rim, and more in general European countries, have a long history and heritage in art and culture, which can be shared and revamped through new disciplines, sciences and technologies. History and cultural heritage must go beyond the status of precious and extraordinary assets just considered in a logic of past preservation. They can be projected into the future fostering the "new", "innovation," promoting new projects and agreements, through arts, scientific disciplines and technologies. History and cultural heritage can become key elements from cultural, historical, social as well as economic viewpoints, they can act as observatories of issues which combine past, present and future, fostering new economic and professional areas."
>
> I know that among our invited respondents and Yasmin members there are artists who have been or are working in this field, for instance the very interesting work of Katerina Karoussos in Greece. I think it would be important to know some more about what artists in the Mediterranean regions are making in connecting history to science and technology.
>
> I am also thinking that, starting from this Yasmin discussion's topic, we could collect papers for a structured, formal and scientific publication that Yasmin could present as a survey/research on art/science issues in the Mediterranean rim. The eBook format (PDF, epub) would be perfect for this project. What do you think about? Is anybody interested in helping?
>
> But now let's go back to the discussion again! I know it is just poor text, but despite all the right limitations you pointed out - language, structures, technology biases, and so on - it is anyway a medium which allows us to match, share and discuss different viewpoints, attitudes, activities, ideas, visions, cultures. ;-)
>
> «If you give me a coin and I give you a coin, each of us has one coin. If you give me an idea and I give you an idea, each of us has two ideas» Silvio Ceccato (1914 - 1997).
>
>
> Thank you all for participating!
>
> Pier Luigi
>
>
> --
> Pier Luigi Capucci
> via Rovigo, 8
> 48016 Milano Marittima (RA)
> ITALY
> Tel.: +39 (0) 544 976156
> Mobile: +39 348 3889844
> e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
> web: http://capucci.org
> skype: plcapucci
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Hello Yasminers,

thank you all for making this discussion very interesting - I hope that more people, both among the invited respondents and among the Yasmin members, will be involved. I know that some of them are participating to the "Taboo - Transgression - Transcendence in Art & Science" conference, in Corfù, http://avarts.ionio.gr/ttt/

I'll go through all your posts - since May 15 until May 30 they are roughly 45! - and I'll try to make some kind of a digest on the many topics which have been raised. I'll post it later to Yasmin. Any help here is welcome :-)

My suggestion now is to get back to the original discussion topic, which is:

"Countries in the Mediterranean Rim, and more in general European countries, have a long history and heritage in art and culture, which can be shared and revamped through new disciplines, sciences and technologies. History and cultural heritage must go beyond the status of precious and extraordinary assets just considered in a logic of past preservation. They can be projected into the future fostering the "new", "innovation," promoting new projects and agreements, through arts, scientific disciplines and technologies. History and cultural heritage can become key elements from cultural, historical, social as well as economic viewpoints, they can act as observatories of issues which combine past, present and future, fostering new economic and professional areas."

I know that among our invited respondents and Yasmin members there are artists who have been or are working in this field, for instance the very interesting work of Katerina Karoussos in Greece. I think it would be important to know some more about what artists in the Mediterranean regions are making in connecting history to science and technology.

I am also thinking that, starting from this Yasmin discussion's topic, we could collect papers for a structured, formal and scientific publication that Yasmin could present as a survey/research on art/science issues in the Mediterranean rim. The eBook format (PDF, epub) would be perfect for this project. What do you think about? Is anybody interested in helping?

But now let's go back to the discussion again! I know it is just poor text, but despite all the right limitations you pointed out - language, structures, technology biases, and so on - it is anyway a medium which allows us to match, share and discuss different viewpoints, attitudes, activities, ideas, visions, cultures. ;-)

«If you give me a coin and I give you a coin, each of us has one coin. If you give me an idea and I give you an idea, each of us has two ideas» Silvio Ceccato (1914 - 1997).

Thank you all for participating!

Pier Luigi

--
Pier Luigi Capucci
via Rovigo, 8
48016 Milano Marittima (RA)
ITALY
Tel.: +39 (0) 544 976156
Mobile: +39 348 3889844
e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
web: http://capucci.org
skype: plcapucci

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Short response

thanks liliane for your response,

multi,trans, inter, cross - disciplinary practices- i hope we can find time
to discuss!

all best,

Gemma

Dr Gemma Anderson
Artist and Lecturer in Drawing at Falmouth University
Honorary Research Fellow, Egenis, University of Exeter
Drawing Research Associate, The Big Draw, UK

http://www.gemma-anderson.co.uk/
www.cmadc.uk
http://www.isomorphology.com/
https://falmouth.academia.edu/GemmaAnderson
@Isomorphology

On 29 May 2017 at 21:32, Liliane Lijn <liliane@lilianelijn.com> wrote:

> Hi Gemma
>
> Thank you for the url of what looks like a fascinating approach.
>
> Just to get the record straight, I did not intend to say that art is only
> practised by individuals. I am not only aware of very interesting
> collaborative art but have since many years been interested myself in
> developing collaborative and interdisciplinary methodologies.
>
> You can have a look at two game/performance/events that involve numerous
> participants. Both of these involve the use of language and performance,
> the latter particularly in the Power Game. http://www.lilianelijn.com/
> portfolio-item/1905/ <http://www.lilianelijn.com/portfolio-item/1905/>
> and http://www.lilianelijn.com/portfolio-item/poem-game-1974/ <
> http://www.lilianelijn.com/portfolio-item/poem-game-1974/>.
> Both of these may appear more restricted in their cross-disciplinary
> approach but were first enacted in the early 1970's. I have been working
> with a group of scientists since 2006 on a large solar installation in the
> landscape. http://www.solarbeacon.org <http://www.solarbeacon.org/>
>
> What I meant to open up to discussion was the question of how a
> multi-disciplinary collaborative approach will change the end result of art.
>
> I think that is an interesting question and, although I haven't been able
> to read all the very long contributions in the Yasmin discussions, I
> haven;t come across anyone actually addressing this.
>
> best,
>
> Liliane
>
> Liliane Lijn
>
> 07770350633
> 02088095636
> www.lilianelijn.com <http://www.lilianelijn.com/>
> > On 28 May 2017, at 18:56, Gemma Anderson <gemma.anderson@network.rca.
> ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Thanks for all the contributions so far,
> >
> > I have a quick response to Liliane's understanding that 'art is practiced
> > by individuals', I would like to suggest looking at this project
> > http://www.choreo-graphic-figures.net which i think presents a good
> example
> > of a different and i think a very progressive approach.
> >
> > all best,
> >
> > Gemma
> >
> >
> > Dr Gemma Anderson
> > Artist and Lecturer in Drawing at Falmouth University
> > Honorary Research Fellow, Egenis, University of Exeter
> > Drawing Research Associate, The Big Draw, UK
> >
> > http://www.gemma-anderson.co.uk/
> > www.cmadc.uk
> > http://www.isomorphology.com/
> > https://falmouth.academia.edu/GemmaAnderson
> > @Isomorphology
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
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>
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Short response

Hi Gemma

Thank you for the url of what looks like a fascinating approach.

Just to get the record straight, I did not intend to say that art is only practised by individuals. I am not only aware of very interesting collaborative art but have since many years been interested myself in developing collaborative and interdisciplinary methodologies.

You can have a look at two game/performance/events that involve numerous participants. Both of these involve the use of language and performance, the latter particularly in the Power Game. http://www.lilianelijn.com/portfolio-item/1905/ <http://www.lilianelijn.com/portfolio-item/1905/> and http://www.lilianelijn.com/portfolio-item/poem-game-1974/ <http://www.lilianelijn.com/portfolio-item/poem-game-1974/>.
Both of these may appear more restricted in their cross-disciplinary approach but were first enacted in the early 1970's. I have been working with a group of scientists since 2006 on a large solar installation in the landscape. http://www.solarbeacon.org <http://www.solarbeacon.org/>

What I meant to open up to discussion was the question of how a multi-disciplinary collaborative approach will change the end result of art.

I think that is an interesting question and, although I haven't been able to read all the very long contributions in the Yasmin discussions, I haven;t come across anyone actually addressing this.

best,

Liliane

Liliane Lijn

07770350633
02088095636
www.lilianelijn.com <http://www.lilianelijn.com/>
> On 28 May 2017, at 18:56, Gemma Anderson <gemma.anderson@network.rca.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> Thanks for all the contributions so far,
>
> I have a quick response to Liliane's understanding that 'art is practiced
> by individuals', I would like to suggest looking at this project
> http://www.choreo-graphic-figures.net which i think presents a good example
> of a different and i think a very progressive approach.
>
> all best,
>
> Gemma
>
>
> Dr Gemma Anderson
> Artist and Lecturer in Drawing at Falmouth University
> Honorary Research Fellow, Egenis, University of Exeter
> Drawing Research Associate, The Big Draw, UK
>
> http://www.gemma-anderson.co.uk/
> www.cmadc.uk
> http://www.isomorphology.com/
> https://falmouth.academia.edu/GemmaAnderson
> @Isomorphology
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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[Yasmin_discussions] Writing Across Disciplines

Dear Živa,

You raised a profound issue the other day.

—snip—

> For that
> zone in between where no manuals apply and where categories of artistic vs.
> scientific research melt down. For the transdisciplinary zone we were
> approaching just before you changed the time zone (no pun intended). Any
> suggestions?

—snip—

While I'm still thinking about a serious reply, I do have a couple preliminary thoughts. In 2013, I gave a keynote at the Creativity and Cognition conference in Sydney, Australia, titled The Challenge of Interdisciplinary Research.

https://www.academia.edu/3727725/Friedman._2013._The_Challenge_of_Interdisciplinary_Research

Looking at the PowerPoint deck reminds me of just how thin a medium PowerPoint can be — there were a couple of slides that contain a few words only. These were the headline words for central and delicate parts of the talk. In contrast, several slides contain complete quotes and references — they are complete because someone else wrote them and I could read them aloud. Still, this is better than nothing, and it will give you an idea of how I have been thinking.

Rather than get into the discussion of differences between the interdisciplinary and the transdisciplinary, I'll simply say that there are some key distinctions to be made between work within a discipline and work that pushes out over the boundaries of more than one discipline.

In discussing manuals such as Strunk and White's (1999) Elements of Style or Helen Sword's (2012) Stylish Academic Writing, I note that these authors discuss how to express ideas clearly. This enables readers to understand a writer. The advice in manuals such as these applies to all research writing, even to the transdisciplinary fields where categories of research melt down.

Before asking how we can write across the boundaries of disciplines, it helps to reflect on how writing shapes — and reshapes — the established disciplines. There are several useful books that allow us to do this.

Jonathan Monroe's (2002) Writing and Revising the Disciplines looks at different issues from the viewpoint of leading scholars and scientists in physics, chemistry, science and technology studies, government, sociology, law, English, history, and classics. You will be especially interested in the article by Roald Hoffmann (2002), a Nobel laureate whose article is titled "Writing (and Drawing) Chemistry." Hoffmann argues that it is impossible to write up chemical research without drawing — perhaps a hint at some of the multiple skills you are asking about in art-science.

In Works and Lives. The Anthropologist as Author, Clifford Geertz (1988) shows how key anthropological authors shaped their voice and helped to shape the discipline of anthropology in doing so.

In a different vein, Gordon Wood's (2008) The Purpose of the Past. Reflections on the Uses of History examines writing history through the lens of a brilliant historian's book reviews.

Helen Sword's (2017) new book also seems quite promising — Air & Light & Time & Space. How Successful Academics Write. I have not read it. I've only seen information about it, but I've ordered a copy and I can suggest Sword's work to anyone interested in writing research.

Full references appear at the end of this note.

I will give this issue further thought, and return after a while if I have some productive ideas.

Yours,

Ken

Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Editor-in-Chief | 设计 She Ji. The Journal of Design, Economics, and Innovation | Published by Tongji University in Cooperation with Elsevier | URL: http://www.journals.elsevier.com/she-ji-the-journal-of-design-economics-and-innovation/

Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia

Email ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com | Academia http://swinburne.academia.edu/KenFriedman | D&I http://tjdi.tongji.edu.cn

—

References

Geertz, Clifford. 1988. Works and Lives. The Anthropologist as Author. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press.

Hoffmann, Roald. 2002. "Writing (and Drawing) Chemistry." Writing and Revising the Disciplines. Jonathan Monroe, ed. Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press, pp. 29-53

Monroe, Jonathan, ed. 2002. Writing and Revising the Disciplines. Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press.

Strunk, William, and E B White. 1999. The Elements of Style. 4th Edition. Harlow, Essex: Longman Publishing.

Sword, Helen. 2012. Stylish Academic Writing. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press.

Sword, Helen. 2017. Air & Light & Time & Space. How Successful Academics Write. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press.

Wood, Gordon S. 2008. The Purpose of the Past. Reflections on the Uses of History. New York: Penguin Books.

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Salvatore and all,

the commentaries come with best intentions to be constructive. I believe we
are all here happy to discuss parts of your research/practice that you find
relevant to the topic and although this email thread can be thought of as
sort of a freestyle brainstorming, adding too many references to too many
projects without proper argumentation sooner or later turns on the "ad
filters." That's all. If the brainstorm turned a bit turbulent as you found
Ken's commentary obscure I hope Ken now helped clear the sky, moreover I
find his guidance useful to keep in mind. As I said before, at the very
point where categories of artistic vs. scientific research melt down there
are no manuals, and it is precisely this melting point that we are
exploring on this list, but in order to discuss it effectively, the
principles of scientific protocol remain instrumental. No doubt an
interesting discussion can develop from many parts of your practice given
proper arguments that we can examine and expand upon.

All in all, I encountered many interesting points of view here that
inspired many new ideas and challenged many old ones and I am thankful to
all participating in discussion and to the moderators for organizing it.

Best wishes,

Živa

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 8:00 PM, xDxD.vs.xDxD <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Ken,
>
> If the highest value you can bring too any discussion is to describe what
> > you do, then I'm not sure why we are here on a list for art-science. Jeff
> > Koons describes what he does.
> >
>
> if you read the line below "describe what we do" it says: "... describe
> what we do, our motives and background research, how we formulate
> experiments, what are the results and impacts, what implications,
> difficulties, innovations,"
>
> so what we do is : describe what we do, describe our motives, describe the
> background research (which means previous studies/cases, or lack of
> previous studies/cases, or studies/cases which inspire us and how and/or
> how we try to reformulate them to try to go beyond them a little bit...),
> describe how we formulate experiments (which can be in the lab, but they
> can also happen in a performance, or in a city, or in another setting,
> according to a method, so that they can be performed again, etc, which
> includes the fact that we release all tools, software, technologies, data
> in input and output etc), describe the results, describe the impacts (what
> changed? what stayed the same? what was not "readable"? why? what next?),
> describe the difficulties, describe the innovations (what, if any, happened
> now that hadn't happened before? what have we done with it? what do we
> imagine that we can do with it? what do we try to do next with it?...)
>
>
> >
> > When you add to this such dimensions as formulating experiments,
> > describing results, considering difficulties, then description must rise
> to
> > the level of analysis. This, in turn, requires deeper description,
> > comparison, and if you also claim innovation, then you've got to
> > demonstrate what happened in the past. That is to say, when you make
> > scientific claims for your art or your approach to art, more is required
> > than a description of artistic practice.
> >
>
> so, with the previous paragraph I hope to have answered your doubt.
>
> I thought it was pretty clear even before, but evidently I was wrong.
>
> What I was really referring to by answering Ziva was the "self-promotion"
> thing. I have nothing wrong with it, and I figured, from what was being
> said, that even Ziva had nothing wrong with it. But, again, I think that it
> was important to communicate that describing an experiment, and its pre-
> and post- (see above), is more important than self-promotion.
>
>
>
> >
> > Without analysis, it is impossible to support other people's research.
> > Merely describing what one does assumes that what you do is innovative.
> > This may not be the case. That's why researchers work to identify the
> gaps
> > in the knowledge of the field prior to their contribution. Significant
> > innovation in uncommon. It is more likely to occur following serious
> > thinking and analysis.
> >
>
> of course we do that. as a matter of fact it is one of our priorities.
>
>
> all the best
> Salvatore
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Ken Friedman
> >
> > —snip—
> >
> > > We are practice-based.
> > >
> > > The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we
> > do,
> > > our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments,
> what
> > > are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties,
> > innovations,
> > > etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is
> useful
> > > to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
> > >
> > > In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
> > > other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can
> > come
> > > together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people
> in
> > > ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
> > >
> > > In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion.
> Which
> > > is of course inspired and informed by other things.
> >
> > —snip—
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> > page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
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> Digest
> > Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> > http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *- http://www.artisopensource.net
> *[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
> <http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
> *[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
> *[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
> ---
> Professor of Near Future and Transmedia Design at ISIA Design Florence:
> http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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[Yasmin_discussions] Short response

Dear All,

Thanks for all the contributions so far,

I have a quick response to Liliane's understanding that 'art is practiced
by individuals', I would like to suggest looking at this project
http://www.choreo-graphic-figures.net which i think presents a good example
of a different and i think a very progressive approach.

all best,

Gemma


Dr Gemma Anderson
Artist and Lecturer in Drawing at Falmouth University
Honorary Research Fellow, Egenis, University of Exeter
Drawing Research Associate, The Big Draw, UK

http://www.gemma-anderson.co.uk/
www.cmadc.uk
http://www.isomorphology.com/
https://falmouth.academia.edu/GemmaAnderson
@Isomorphology
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Liliane

> I would like to add that there are serious differences between scientific
> practice and art practice.

Just to make it clear, again: I did not suggest anywhere that art and
science are (or should be) the same.

On the opposite, I have constantly stated how the value derives from the
fact that they are different, and that they should operate as peers, each
maintaining their roles, specificities, attitudes, etc, but not aiming at
subjugating one another.

In our culture, in anycase, art is practiced by individuals and, at its
> best, it is very much related to that individual's psyche, vision and
> experience. Yes, artists also observe the work of other artists and may
> choose to work in possibly unexplored are least areas. But that is not all
> that common and certainly not the main driving force behind an artistic
> practice.
>

I also point in the direction of exploring the transformations which are
brought on cultures and psyches when creativity becomes such an ubiquitous,
diffused, recombinant phenomenon. When "platforms" enter the scene, and
data-driven software agencies start having such a big impact on how we
(may or may not) perceive, perform and transform the world, individually
and as a society, I start having a very big difficulty understanding Art as
a practice of the individual. It was also true before, to an extent, but
now it becomes a truly problematic issue.

My idea is that we can positively construct on this.

To positively construct on this, we need arts, sciences, technologies and
wide, inclusive, active, engagement of a multiplicity of different types of
subjects, such as researchers, artists, designers, engineers, politicians,
children, elderly etc.

Arts, for this, can be a great catalyzer.

For this I have no problem in conceiving initiatives which include, at the
same time, scientific research, technological innovation, art and societal
engagement, as a whole, in coordinated, cooperative, interweaved,
interactive ways. They require different types of subjects and
organizations, coordinated and cooperating in positive, constructive ways.
And as peers. Which does not absolutely mean that the artist must act as
the scientist. It means that they participate to the discussion as peers,
each with their own type of contribution.

In our recent BodyQuake project, dealing with epilepsy, arts were used to
create innovative visualizations which were used by scientists, and at the
same time sciences were used to create the apparatus needed for an art
performance. It was not 2 separated processes: it was the same process in
which 2 methods, techniques, tools etc implemented a single process which
produced at the same time an artwork, a scientific/technological innovation
and a social innovation process in which social engagement to a serious
condition such as epilepsy is developed culturally and technically.

Is this clearer now?
I hope so, because it feels like we're stuck on an issue which I, on the
one hand, never supported and, you, on the other hand, misinterpreted (or I
mis-expressed, which is entirely possible, of course)

(and, in the meanwhile, loosing touch with the important topics which were
addressed in this discussion's introduction, and which have been addressed
in other threads, which I am now starting to focus on again, to try to
contribute to them not remaining unaddressed)

Cheers!
Salvatore

--
*[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *- http://www.artisopensource.net
*[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
<http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
*[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
*[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
---
Professor of Near Future and Transmedia Design at ISIA Design Florence:
http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Salvatore,

At this point, I think we are talking past each other.

You want to use both the language of art and the language of science — I'd add to this that your claim to making everything available open access is also a problem when you inundate people with so much information that there is no reasonable way to understand what happened without a research team. I am not prepared to put a full research team to work on some of the material I see in art-science just to find out if it really happened as the author says it did. It is the author's responsibility to write a reasonably complete yet parsimonious account that enables me to understand the material.

One of the shocking moments in the life of every young researcher comes when they learn that a research article does *not* communicate everything that went into the research between the start of the work and the conclusion. Part of the art of scientific practice — and this is also an art — is to decide what it relevant and what is not. If every scientist had to report every failed hypothesis, every guess along what way, every dead end, every false positive, every mistaken negative, no article would run to less than a book.

I once knew a researcher who spent three years grinding sheep brains in a blender, then refining them, and then doing further work to extract a couple of spoonfuls of the substance on which he did his PhD. He kept a lab workbook that tracked every little step. Anyone who might have want to review every step, data by day, could ask for the workbook. But he did not publish a diary of his long three years of work, and he did not spend pages explaining his motives, his feelings, and all the rest.

As I see it, there is both too much and too little in your posts. There is too much in the vast amount of needless information you provide about your feelings and motives, too much talk about transgressive traders and laughing elders in the bazaar, and so on. And there is too little concise, careful description that allows me to understand what you are actually writing about.

This thread began as something entirely different — we are no longer discussing "the new and history." We have moved over to the question of how we ought to write up art-science in an interesting, responsible way.

If someone wishes to make writing art-science the topic of a thread on Yasmin, I'll be happy to participate. For now, I don't feel that I will shed any further light on these issues by an endless cycle of replies.

So I will stop here.

Yours,

Ken

> On May 28, 2017, at 2:00 AM, xDxD.vs.xDxD <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Ken,
>
> If the highest value you can bring too any discussion is to describe what
>> you do, then I'm not sure why we are here on a list for art-science. Jeff
>> Koons describes what he does.
>>
>
> if you read the line below "describe what we do" it says: "... describe
> what we do, our motives and background research, how we formulate
> experiments, what are the results and impacts, what implications,
> difficulties, innovations,"
>
> so what we do is : describe what we do, describe our motives, describe the
> background research (which means previous studies/cases, or lack of
> previous studies/cases, or studies/cases which inspire us and how and/or
> how we try to reformulate them to try to go beyond them a little bit...),
> describe how we formulate experiments (which can be in the lab, but they
> can also happen in a performance, or in a city, or in another setting,
> according to a method, so that they can be performed again, etc, which
> includes the fact that we release all tools, software, technologies, data
> in input and output etc), describe the results, describe the impacts (what
> changed? what stayed the same? what was not "readable"? why? what next?),
> describe the difficulties, describe the innovations (what, if any, happened
> now that hadn't happened before? what have we done with it? what do we
> imagine that we can do with it? what do we try to do next with it?...)
>
>
>>
>> When you add to this such dimensions as formulating experiments,
>> describing results, considering difficulties, then description must rise to
>> the level of analysis. This, in turn, requires deeper description,
>> comparison, and if you also claim innovation, then you've got to
>> demonstrate what happened in the past. That is to say, when you make
>> scientific claims for your art or your approach to art, more is required
>> than a description of artistic practice.
>>
>
> so, with the previous paragraph I hope to have answered your doubt.
>
> I thought it was pretty clear even before, but evidently I was wrong.
>
> What I was really referring to by answering Ziva was the "self-promotion"
> thing. I have nothing wrong with it, and I figured, from what was being
> said, that even Ziva had nothing wrong with it. But, again, I think that it
> was important to communicate that describing an experiment, and its pre-
> and post- (see above), is more important than self-promotion.
>
>
>
>>
>> Without analysis, it is impossible to support other people's research.
>> Merely describing what one does assumes that what you do is innovative.
>> This may not be the case. That's why researchers work to identify the gaps
>> in the knowledge of the field prior to their contribution. Significant
>> innovation in uncommon. It is more likely to occur following serious
>> thinking and analysis.
>>
>
> of course we do that. as a matter of fact it is one of our priorities.
>
>
> all the best
> Salvatore
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Ken Friedman
>>
>> —snip—
>>
>>> We are practice-based.
>>>
>>> The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we
>> do,
>>> our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments, what
>>> are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties,
>> innovations,
>>> etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is useful
>>> to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
>>>
>>> In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
>>> other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can
>> come
>>> together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people in
>>> ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
>>>
>>> In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion. Which
>>> is of course inspired and informed by other things.
>>
>> —snip—
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
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>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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>
>
>
> --
> *[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *- http://www.artisopensource.net
> *[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
> <http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
> *[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
> *[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
> ---
> Professor of Near Future and Transmedia Design at ISIA Design Florence:
> http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art-science discussion

Dear Annick and Jacqueline

i wanted to follow up on this:

A question inspired by Annick last remark: 'Oh, and I don't believe there
> is such a thing as "raw" data, because to get "data" you need a "collecting
> tool" and this is already a bias' , as this has been the main topic of my
> art/ research practice. I create Models of Observation.
>
>
this is an important part in our practice

at a conference on information visualization at our university in florence
we prepared a contribution which was called "Data is an Opinion".

You can find a part of it here (sorry, in Italian for now, but you can get
a sense of the discussion until we prepare an English version):
https://www.academia.edu/32442469/Data_is_an_Opinion_la_spettacolarizzazione_dellinformazione

Of course this is a provocative title, and it should not be taken
literally, but it leads to exploring several phenomena which are common in
today's world of information spectacularization.

Also worth exploring are the phenomena in which forms of algorithmic
governance loose touch with "reality" (which I put in quotes as it is a
delicate term, given the subject matter). For example there is this
wonderful article by Francesca Musiani:
https://policyreview.info/articles/analysis/governance-algorithms

She ends her article with:

"the extent to which we live in a world ruled by algorithms has to be
assessed. We need to research not only the extent to which, given the
ubiquity of algorithms, they regulate us in a sense, but also "what it
would mean to resist them". (Barocas et al., 2013)"

if we think about the fact that decisions made or suggested by algorithms
are derived from data, the notion that it is problematic to understand how
data is collected and what are the "biopolitics of data, interfaces and
algorithms" is central.

We have started our effort in suggesting ways in which Interface and Data
Biopolitics approach can be integrated, for example, in design education
curricula.
This is one publication in which we speak about it:
https://www.academia.edu/32872466/Interface_and_Data_Biopolitics_in_the_Age_of_Hyperconnectivity

It is a really complex matter. For example, imagine web or interaction
design courses. They are completely occupied by tools, texts, APIs,
instruments, tutorials etc which come from Google, Microsoft, Facebook,
etc, implying that the students will use Google's, Microsoft's,Facebook's
etc tools. While it is really nice of them to make all of these software
and storage and computation and applicative resources available for free
for education purposes, we must realize that this also goes in the
direction of attributing enormous power to these subjects. Progressively,
"reality" may become "Google's opinion" about reality, as it is captured
through Google's strategies, philosophy, culture etc.
It is potentially an enormous power. Which we are attributing to them each
day, using Google's maps when our students have to make a prototype of a
geo-referenced App, and similar things, as we prepare them to make them in
the same ways for their clients.

This, for example, is another space in which a "Mediterranean" option would
be precious, in my opinion.

The EU already is having to deal with these kinds of problems in a number
of ways (see the lack of BigData storage facilities in Europe, for example,
but also the fundamental lack of alternatives to Googles, Facebooks etc).

The possibility to come up with ways to confront with these same issues in
the Mediterranean would not only be precious for these reasons, but also
because it would be a shared effort which combines Mediterranean cultures
in creating/appropriating a space for cultural diversity which is (and will
be) potentially in danger, in collaborative, participatory ways.

This is one of the main reasons why I was a little sad that this
conversation was somewhat pushed away from these fundamental topics (as
indicated by Pier Luigi's introduction) and pushed towards the rather
uninteresting discussion about me or other people. It seemed like worrying
about the flowery curtains on the window, while the house is on fire.

More positivity, inclusion, participation, openness and desire to help and
support is needed to even think about being able to start confronting with
these issues. And less walled gardens and desires to defend positions.

"Cultural Heritage" – in times of hyperconnectivity, of ubiquitous
technologies and networks, of nervous systems and bodies extended through
social networks, devices and massive, continuous, complex data and
information flows – can (and will) become an thing which is substantially
different from the one we experienced up to now.

> The question: Higher level computer code and scripting, has become
> predominately english based. What would happen if code was based in
> languages other than English, would this make a difference in how we work
> with the code and what could that mean for diversity, nuance, and ethical
> choices when it comes to writing tools for, collecting, selecting, and
> preserving digitally?

Have you tried Monicelli?

https://github.com/esseks/monicelli

There are a number of experiments in this sense. Some are beautiful and
poetic (such as Monicelli), some try to experiment in different forms of
structures and flows.

And there is also all the areas of symbolic, procedural, declarative and
logical programming which explores changes in structure, organization,
flow, control etc.

For example, programming in Wolfram, LISP, Prolog (which are symbolic),
SQL, or regular expressions (which are declarative), all are very different
experiences than with imperative programming languages. And they are also
more open to defining alternative syntaxes.

Or there is all the meta-languages, all of those things which find in
software products like YAPP (Yet Another Compiler Compiler) the tools which
can be used to create other languages, to achieve a variety of purposes.

Both these languages and meta-languages enable and allow experimenting.

Current initiatives (for example in schools, with the "coding hour" type of
initiatives) are more oriented to more directly professionalizing
approaches, but initiatives in this direction could be explored in a
multiplicity of ways.

cheers!
Salvatore

--
*[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *- http://www.artisopensource.net
*[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
<http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
*[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
*[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
---
Professor of Near Future and Transmedia Design at ISIA Design Florence:
http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Ziva,

of course I agree and share many of our concerns.

I was really pointing out how the three concepts that you described (spam,
selfies and self promotion) have little to nothing in common with each
other. They are really different phenomena. So I was really wondering what
you were referring to.

when a certain threshold in any of these categories is reached, our humble
> central nervous system does not treat it as a complex phenomenon but as
> noise overload.


I am not sure about this. Other mechanisms exist, such as attention (and
its absence), social dynamics in selection of information, bubbles, echo
chambers, which have good and bad effects, depending on where you're
looking.

Are we sure that this "overload" or "tolerance" is the only thing that is
happening?
There are other options and possibilities, and even opportunities.

All the best,
Salvatore


>
>
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Ken,

If the highest value you can bring too any discussion is to describe what
> you do, then I'm not sure why we are here on a list for art-science. Jeff
> Koons describes what he does.
>

if you read the line below "describe what we do" it says: "... describe
what we do, our motives and background research, how we formulate
experiments, what are the results and impacts, what implications,
difficulties, innovations,"

so what we do is : describe what we do, describe our motives, describe the
background research (which means previous studies/cases, or lack of
previous studies/cases, or studies/cases which inspire us and how and/or
how we try to reformulate them to try to go beyond them a little bit...),
describe how we formulate experiments (which can be in the lab, but they
can also happen in a performance, or in a city, or in another setting,
according to a method, so that they can be performed again, etc, which
includes the fact that we release all tools, software, technologies, data
in input and output etc), describe the results, describe the impacts (what
changed? what stayed the same? what was not "readable"? why? what next?),
describe the difficulties, describe the innovations (what, if any, happened
now that hadn't happened before? what have we done with it? what do we
imagine that we can do with it? what do we try to do next with it?...)

>
> When you add to this such dimensions as formulating experiments,
> describing results, considering difficulties, then description must rise to
> the level of analysis. This, in turn, requires deeper description,
> comparison, and if you also claim innovation, then you've got to
> demonstrate what happened in the past. That is to say, when you make
> scientific claims for your art or your approach to art, more is required
> than a description of artistic practice.
>

so, with the previous paragraph I hope to have answered your doubt.

I thought it was pretty clear even before, but evidently I was wrong.

What I was really referring to by answering Ziva was the "self-promotion"
thing. I have nothing wrong with it, and I figured, from what was being
said, that even Ziva had nothing wrong with it. But, again, I think that it
was important to communicate that describing an experiment, and its pre-
and post- (see above), is more important than self-promotion.

>
> Without analysis, it is impossible to support other people's research.
> Merely describing what one does assumes that what you do is innovative.
> This may not be the case. That's why researchers work to identify the gaps
> in the knowledge of the field prior to their contribution. Significant
> innovation in uncommon. It is more likely to occur following serious
> thinking and analysis.
>

of course we do that. as a matter of fact it is one of our priorities.

all the best
Salvatore

>
> Yours,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> —snip—
>
> > We are practice-based.
> >
> > The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we
> do,
> > our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments, what
> > are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties,
> innovations,
> > etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is useful
> > to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
> >
> > In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
> > other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can
> come
> > together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people in
> > ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
> >
> > In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion. Which
> > is of course inspired and informed by other things.
>
> —snip—
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
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> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>

--
*[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *- http://www.artisopensource.net
*[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
<http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
*[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
*[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
---
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http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Ken

I agree with what you have stated below. What is even better is that you have kept it brief.

I would like to add that there are serious differences between scientific practice and art practice. In our culture, in anycase, art is practiced by individuals and, at its best, it is very much related to that individual's psyche, vision and experience. Yes, artists also observe the work of other artists and may choose to work in possibly unexplored are least areas. But that is not all that common and certainly not the main driving force behind an artistic practice.

One reason artists and scientists can find interest in each other's work is their different experience and vision of reality.

all best,

Liliane

Liliane Lijn

07770350633
02088095636
www.lilianelijn.com <http://www.lilianelijn.com/>
> On 26 May 2017, at 13:02, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Salvatore,
>
> What does it mean to say "we are practice-based"? You are making claims to research and experiment.
>
> These claims require clear thinking to be meaningful.
>
> All research is practice-based on some dimension. Scientists in every field engage in a practice — the practice of research. This is even the case for purely theoretical sciences such as mathematics, theoretical physics, logic and philosophy.
>
> If the highest value you can bring too any discussion is to describe what you do, then I'm not sure why we are here on a list for art-science. Jeff Koons describes what he does.
>
> When you add to this such dimensions as formulating experiments, describing results, considering difficulties, then description must rise to the level of analysis. This, in turn, requires deeper description, comparison, and if you also claim innovation, then you've got to demonstrate what happened in the past. That is to say, when you make scientific claims for your art or your approach to art, more is required than a description of artistic practice.
>
> Without analysis, it is impossible to support other people's research. Merely describing what one does assumes that what you do is innovative. This may not be the case. That's why researchers work to identify the gaps in the knowledge of the field prior to their contribution. Significant innovation in uncommon. It is more likely to occur following serious thinking and analysis.
>
> Yours,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> —snip—
>
>> We are practice-based.
>>
>> The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we do,
>> our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments, what
>> are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties, innovations,
>> etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is useful
>> to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
>>
>> In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
>> other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can come
>> together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people in
>> ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
>>
>> In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion. Which
>> is of course inspired and informed by other things.
>
> —snip—
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
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