Paul
I completely agree with all that you have said, but I would add that for
understanding each other's framework it's necessary to understand each
own's framework. It's quite obvious but a high level of self-reflexivity is
previously needed to open to the other.
In my teaching and research I've found so many scientists, engineers,
designers and artists with a total lack of this minimum self-reflexivity.
It's a paradox, but they do what they do because they have been doing it
this way for many time, and never asked themselves why they have been doing
it this way, and if that could be done in another completely different way.
By self-reflexivity I mean to think, know and explore the
(epistemological/ontological) foundations of their practices and theories.
I am not telling that everyone should become a philosopher of science,
technology of art, but at least they should know better and think about
their discipline "foundations", This would make them better scientists,
engineers, designers or artists. And would make them more open to the
other, open to dialogue and collaboration.
I've asked many times the same question to all types of teachers that have
been trying to create this kind of transdisciplinary collaborations with
their students: "How did it happen? Who finally made it?". And many of them
told me that paradoxically for them the students more specialized in their
discipline, those "best students", where the ones more open to collaborate
and the ones that made better results out of their collaboration. I don't
know if this is ok for you as well.
So I guess that for a mutual understanding it's necessary one's
understanding at a deeper lever, and then later, maybe that deeper level
on mutual understanding could happen somehow, somewhere. Maybe that would
help to travel around those differents directions of collaboration you were
mentioning.
Pau
2012/7/17 Paul Fishwick <fishwick@cise.ufl.edu>
> Pau:
> First and foremost, each member of a collaboration needs to understand
> each others' framework. I think this is what you are getting at with the
> discussion of different, and sometimes, conflicting epistemologies and
> ontologies. However, it may be fruitful, or just pragmatic, to agree to
> compromise by letting each "side" do the leading. In this way, everyone
> wins. I'll provide an example.
> As a computer scientist, my core interest is in mathematical and
> computing
> artifacts and processes. If I work with an artist, I will need to
> understand that
> artist but the artist also has to understand me. Let's say for the sake of
> discussion that the artist is driven by creating works that are "socially
> activist" (they are trying to draw attention to a socioeconomic problem).
> I have to recognize that if I build something to help the artist achieve
> one of
> these works, that I may be implicitly playing a supporting role in the
> collaboration because social activism is not my driving force. Actually,
> programmers and computer scientists are used to these sorts of
> collaborations where they play a supporting role.
> Now, let's consider the other direction in the collaboration. In my quest
> to explore novel representations of computing artifacts, it would be great
> to improve these representations with the help of an artist or designer.
> Perhaps the end goal is for both parties to come to an agreement where
> the collaboration involves different projects, each sprouting from a
> different
> direction. This is a real challenge because it involves mutual
> understanding
> at a deep level. I am sure that there are some artists who view computer
> scientists only as doing stuff to help support their vision (by creating a
> new
> technology or piece of software to support their artwork), and there are
> some
> computer scientists who view art and design purely as support vehicles for
> their
> visual illustration purposes.
> The question is whether the artist and scientist can engage in both
> types of projects (different directions) and agree to support each other
> where appropriate. It would mean giving a little (by each) during a
> multi-project
> collaboration based on an agreed-upon theme of mutual interest (climate
> change for instance).
> -p
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Roger, Aprille, Rasheed, Paul
> >
> > I believe it's not just only a methodological question, neither a
> > technological aspect that pushes forward SEAD interactions. There are a
> lot
> > of types of enablors that could help create good SEAD experiences. We
> must
> > look at each of them carefully.
> >
> > Briefly I would say that methodologies (how to research) depend on
> > epistemologies (what to research) and that depends on ontologies (what is
> > the real/ the beings). There are some pieces that fit together better
> than
> > the others, and others don't fit at all, or at least are really hard that
> > could work together. It's like a lego....
> >
> > Some times, things work well together. For example Latour's Actor-Network
> > Theory (let's say, an epistemology) proved to fit great with etnography
> (a
> > methodology) as they shared also a great respect with material culture
> > status (ontology) and its agency in Science and Technology studies. That
> > time pieces fitted well and STS, Antropology, Etnography are taking
> > advantatge of this sinergy. As it is taking its course in Media Studies
> and
> > elsewhere.
> >
> > Other times you don't realize they don't fit until it's too late. You
> start
> > working with somebody from another discipline, you set up what to do and
> > some methodologies and techniques to work together, then you start having
> > epistemological discussions about what is and what is not the object to
> > research - they migth tolerate differences or they migth not- and you
> end
> > up having trouble with ontologies -about what deserves to be studied as
> > it's relevant for the real...You did not know that before you started,
> > maybe there was a great personal feeling, or an ideal context for
> > developing a collaboration or collective work, but it simple did'nt
> worked
> > out because you hit the hard stone. As Rasheed pointed out some times the
> > "other side" doesn't share the same values, or doesn't
> tolerate/understand
> > other's values, and there's no point in collaboration.
> >
> > For example, you are an artist trying to work with an Historian because
> you
> > both love Art, you both share great personal feeling and have an ideal
> > context for working together. You believe in the power of Art for
> enabling
> > Social transformation. But the Historian conception of History gives
> > relevance only to structure and Institutions as key agents in all
> changes,
> > and those changes can only be achieved through structural revolutions and
> > war. In that sense believes that Art is just a side-effect, and art and
> > the artists are secondary examples, not driving forces at all. That
> > Historian didn't believe in Art for social change that would lead into
> > political change and then to structural and institutional change. Then,
> if
> > they don't tolerate each other's point of departure, collaboration would
> > ultimately lead into failure.
> >
> > And, this is just in a discoursive level, but as we've said, there are
> > other factors that are related with the "ecosistem" where those
> > collaborations operate: Political, Economic, Social, Ethical aspects that
> > influence definetivelly those possibilities....Mutual understanding of
> > those ecosystems' rules is needed. We migth take a look at all of them
> one
> > by one in order to recreate those enablers, but of course, SEAD
> > interactions not always produce valuable content "per se".... inter or
> > transdisciplinariety doesn't make it all into good as pointed out before.
> >
> > I also like Paul's suggestion to continue discussion in clarification of
> > the questions arised by Rasheed.
> >
> > Many thanks!
> >
> > Pau
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2012/7/11 roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
> >
> > > Pau
> > >
> > > let me pick on your topic of 'bridges' and consilience
> > >
> > > like you i think E O Wilson's concept of consilience turned out
> > > not to be very productive and rather totalising - am not very familiar
> > > with Gould's " conscilience of
> > > equal attention"
> > >
> > > but yes- one of the way to enable science/engineering to
> > > arts/design/humanities
> > > is to find these bridging concepts
> > >
> > > i have been reading recently in the field of translation studies and
> have
> > > found some interesting ideas- for instance of 'travelling concepts=
> > > but also the idea that un-translatability exists and one needs methods
> > that
> > > are well established in cross cultural translation and now
> > > interdisciplinary
> > > translation ( or inter-media)
> > >
> > > there are bridges that are technological- when artists and scientists
> use
> > > the same tools then they start have overlapping epistemologies etc
> > >
> > > paul fishwick in his white paper looks at how gaming technologies are
> > such
> > > a
> > > collaboration enabling tool
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/white-paper-abstracts/abstracts/learning-computing-through-game-experiences/
> > >
> > > one area that is fertile right now is the science of complex networks
> > which
> > > has been found to be productive across the science and humanities
> > >
> > > I do think that we need to start being more rigorous in discussing
> > > collaboration - as depending on the context ( interdisciplinary, multi
> > > disciplinary
> > > and trans-disciplinary) there need to be differing approaches- but
> > > certainly
> > > collaboration as a learned skill is a bridging problem also
> > >
> > > it would perhaps be interesting to inventory these bridge areas that
> are
> > > currently enabling collaboration between science/engineering with
> > > arts/design
> > >
> > > here in marseille the area of history and philosophy of science is
> rather
> > > strong and i have found some of the discussions interesting especially
> > > since history and philosophy of science is very disconnected from the
> > doing
> > > of science in general - at lunch today we were discussing
> > meta-mathematics
> > > and meta-philosophy !
> > >
> > > Roger
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > From: Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu>
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > >
> > > > In the book by allen repko on interdisciplinary theory and practice
> > > > one of the things he does is discuss how different kinds of
> scientists
> > > > have different cultures
> > > > eg observational sciences like astronomy
> > > > vs experimental sciences like chemistry
> > > > vs field sciences like ecology
> > > > vs mathematical sciences like complex networks
> > > >
> > > > they are all sciences but in fact the scientists have different
> > > practices.
> > > > does it make sense to combine them all or should we create
> > > > translation methods between culturs of practice ?
> > > >
> > > > in arts and humanities we also find similar variations on how
> > > > the discipline deals with information about the world
> > > > and intervening in the world= time based arts differ
> > > > from architecture etc
> > > >
> > >
> > > You mean creating "bridges"? I believe, as Loius Bec says, that art
> > itself
> > > is a rare transformational agent that would do that function.
> > >
> > > Those other "methodological" or "epistemological" bridges are really
> hard
> > > to imagine as a universal set of tools. But of course there are
> > > "practice-based-theories" that migth prove better bridges than others.
> > This
> > > would lead into another deep philosophical debate....(that I also
> enjoy a
> > > lot, but migth be a whole new focus of discussion)
> > >
> > > You migth not agree with Edgar O. Wilson's concept of consilience as it
> > has
> > > proved to be reductionist, and at the end not taking seriously all
> fields
> > > of knowledge equally. But do you think that something not just
> > theoretical
> > > could came out from what Stephen Jay Gould says about "conscilience of
> > > equal attention"? Are there already methodology or epistemology tools
> > > coming out from that? Some techniques or strategies for "jumping
> > together"
> > > as Gould says?
> > >
> > > Just wondering...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Anway i know that the FECYT report and the process that led to
> > > > it was very useful in spain= as are other efforts internationally
> > > >
> > > > for instance in the USA the mellon foundation has just funded a major
> > > > project to promote integrating arts practice into the research
> > university
> > > >
> > > > http://artsengine.umich.edu/
> > > >
> > > > ArtsEngine National has been awarded a $500,000, 3.5 year grant from
> > > > the Andrew W. Mellon
> > > > Foundation to create the first comprehensive guide to best practices
> > > > in the integration of arts
> > > > practice in U.S. research universities. To be published in Fall 2015,
> > > > the guide is to identify models,
> > > > obstacles, implementation strategies, costs, and impact on students
> > > > and faculty as well as on
> > > > research, practice, and teaching in other knowledge areas.
> > > >
> > > > With this award, the Mellon Foundation has enabled the national
> > > > network to make major progress
> > > > toward our mission of integrating arts practice into the research
> > > > university.
> > > >
> > > > This activity of course is a heads on collision between the "studio
> > > > based" artists practice
> > > > versus the research model for the arts ( and all the debate on to PhD
> > > > or not to PhD )
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As you already know In Europe there is the Studiolabs innitaitive
> > > http://www.studiolabproject.eu/ that migth work quite in the same way,
> > am
> > > i
> > > right?
> > >
> > >
> > > Pau
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > >
> > > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> > >
> > > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Roger Malina
> > > I am in France at the moment
> > > 33(0)6 80 45 94 47
> > >
> > > Announcing new version with videos of
> > > Leonardo EBOOK on Arts Humanities and Complex Networks
> > > http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007S0UA9Q
> > >
> > > Announcing Leonardo Party in Los Angeles during Siggraph.
> > > Aug 5-9 If you would like to be invited contact me.
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Pau Alsina González
> > Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
> > Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
> >
> > Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
> > Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
> > Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
> >
> > (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
> > Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
> > Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
> > Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
> >
> >
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--
Pau Alsina González
Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
(+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
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