Re: [Yasmin_discussions] self introduction

Dear All,

Perhaps it is useful for us to create a taxonomy of the different types of collaboration and write where which problems occur, so that solutions may be collected. I'm sure others will have written about this, but just to summarize a rough initial list:


1) Collaboration to illustrate science (here science commissions artists to help illustrate, often as translation to the general public)


2) Collaboration in which artists in labs 'playing' with the 'fun things' one finds in labs (in search for for instance new aesthetic)


3) Collaboration with actual integration of methods (may include all aspects of the above) - This I would refer to as artistic research or art research

- led by individual artist (where scientists are advising collaborators)

- led by scientist (Where artists are advising collaborators)

- led by an artist and a scientist in a team

* methods are very different when collaborating with humanities or engineering - different methods, different problems...


4) Network collaboration

- corporate collaboration (funds, knowledge production)

- organizational collaboration (non-profit funds, PR)
- institutional collaboration (PR, presentation locations)

5) Institutional Collaboration (when the initiative comes from a university)

 
* the very real issues that happen related to time organization etc

To be clear on the different types of art research-artistic research, here is a small list I once put together to explain the different types of students that participated in the Honours Programme Art and Research:

5 Types of Participatory art research-artistic research students
1. A university student interested to get closer to art with the interest of gaining depth and new perspective in relation to their own discipline. Participating observer.

2. A university student who is interested in the integration of artistic methods without aspiration of making art. Integrating artistic methods as an enrichment of academic methodologies. Art without the artist. Methods of re-enactment.

3. A hybrid student. One who seeks new forms of knowledge production combining artistic and academic methods aiming for the highest achievements in both methodologies.

4. An art student who wants to get closer to the theories that are related to his work. Aims for high artistic achievement. Knowledge development is Secondary.

5. An art student who wants to get inspired by academic theories. To get closer to science. Theories are applied to suit the artist and are not tested or analyzed for truth.



Regards,

Jennifer Kanary



Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)| Artistic Researcher
PhD Candidate Plymouth University | Planetary Collegium | M-Node

www.labyrinthpsychotica.org | www.facebook.com/LabyrinthPsychotica
www.studio-re-creation.com| www.facebook.com/StudioReCreation
www.facebook.com/ArtandResearch
www.roomforthoughts.com| www.facebook.com/roomforthoughts| @roomforthoughts
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] self introduction

Hi michael,
my name is ennio bertrand, I am an Italian "digital" artist
I produced whit other electronic engineer a system for easy interaction
whit audio, video (or mouvement).
I use this system in fine arts accademy in turin, italy fon teaching
interactive sistems.
please visit: www.theremino.com
end my site: www.enniobertrand.com section interactive

thanks

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, michael nitsche <
michael.nitsche@lcc.gatech.edu> wrote:

> Hi Yasminers,
>
> After following the discussion for some time I wanted to briefly introduce
> myself
>
> I work as Associate Professor in Digital Media at the Georgia Institute of
> Technology where I teach mainly on issues of hybrid spaces and performance
> as interaction. All in all I am fascinated by the intersection of the
> digital with the physical domain and explore this borderline in video
> games, mobile technology, and digital performances. I direct the Digital
> World and Image Group and remain involved in various interdisciplinary
> research centers.
>
> For some time now, my group has been working on larger and smaller
> collaborations with artists and educators (schools and museums). Being a
> rather experimental person myself, I prefer the small-scale project
> approach from where one can grow larger endeavors. For example, doing
> design sketches as discussion starters instead of full projects that need a
> lot of money and time.
>
> please contact me if that calls for further information
>
> best
>
> michael
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Michael Nitsche
> Associate Professor
> Digital World & Image Group
>
> Georgia Institute of Technology
> Digital Media/TSRB 318A
> 85 Fifth Street, NW
> Atlanta , Georgia 30308-1030
> http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~nitsche
> http://dwig.lcc.gatech.edu/
> email: michael.nitsche[at]lcc.gatech.edu
> p: +1 404 894 7000
> f: +1 404 894 2833
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Yasmin_discussions] self introduction

Hi Yasminers,

After following the discussion for some time I wanted to briefly introduce myself

I work as Associate Professor in Digital Media at the Georgia Institute of Technology where I teach mainly on issues of hybrid spaces and performance as interaction. All in all I am fascinated by the intersection of the digital with the physical domain and explore this borderline in video games, mobile technology, and digital performances. I direct the Digital World and Image Group and remain involved in various interdisciplinary research centers.

For some time now, my group has been working on larger and smaller collaborations with artists and educators (schools and museums). Being a rather experimental person myself, I prefer the small-scale project approach from where one can grow larger endeavors. For example, doing design sketches as discussion starters instead of full projects that need a lot of money and time.

please contact me if that calls for further information

best

michael


----------------------------------------
Michael Nitsche
Associate Professor
Digital World & Image Group

Georgia Institute of Technology
Digital Media/TSRB 318A
85 Fifth Street, NW
Atlanta , Georgia 30308-1030
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~nitsche
http://dwig.lcc.gatech.edu/
email: michael.nitsche[at]lcc.gatech.edu
p: +1 404 894 7000
f: +1 404 894 2833




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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] consilience and trans-disciplinary bridges as enablors

Dear all,

I've been out some days for a seminar on Digital Humanities in Marbella,
Spain. It has been a really interesting seminar where different kind of
theorists and practitioners like art historians, philosophers,
philologists, computer scientists, media theorists, engineers, artists,
designers, curators, cultural mangers etc.. met and shared ideas about
using and creating digital technologies for research and teaching of
Humanities. There was a lot of discussion about concrete projects and
methods for collaboration, that lead us to epistemological frameworks. It
was really interesting to see how we moved from concrete to abstract, and
then back to concrete in a inter/trans-disciplinarity way.

Paul I guess that this self-reflexivity in action we were talking about
migth be considered as one of the first benefits that art-science
collaborations must take into account. Working in concrete projects with
other disciplines makes you aware of your own discipline strengths and
limits, and can help you to push them further later.

Cristina, I liked your comparison with jazz improvisation. I also play as
much jazz as I am able to, and I am addicted to that feeling that comes out
when improvising freely in a band. Many times you surprise yourself and the
others when improvising, it's a collective force based on individual
skills, and once all gets coordinated and synergy flourish then "magic" (as
some have defined "emergence" too) appears.

The main differences with transdisciplinarity processes is that all
musicians share a common basic language: music. And even if the "rules" for
music might be different if you are a free-jazzer, a be-bop, latin or pop
jazzer you are able to communicate with the other just by listening to
melody, harmony and rhythm, and then playing. But anyway I am a jazz
practitioner, not a theorist.. I will take a look at those links you gave
us.

Many thanks,

Pau






2012/7/20 cristina miranda <cristinamiranda.de@gmail.com>

> dear Michael, dear all,
>
> thank you for the good reference Michael. I found this link about
> Harrell's work ( Interview with Fox Harrell by Anne Khaminwa): "How An
> Artist-Scientist Conjurer Thinks, Works and Lives that can be interesting
> to explore here. The article can be downloaded from:
> http://cms.mit.edu/news/2011/**05/ <http://cms.mit.edu/news/2011/05/>
> Other contributions can also be very pertinent to the discussion but they
> are seminars so I do not have them and do not know how to access them. In
> special it could be very good to access information about these seminars
> but I am not sure they are published or accesible:
>
> -"Working Across Disciplines: Crafting Interdisciplinary Projects,"
> Moderator and Presenter. Ford Foundation Fellows Conference, Irvine, CA.
> October 16, 2010;
>
> - "Improvisation as a Way of Life: A Symposium," Panelist Brown
> University, February 25, 2011.
>
> Do you, or anyone else, have some more references in this sense? and in
> concrete about processes that emerge in Jazz improvisations as possible
> inspiration models for fostering interdisciplinarity between
> art-science-humanities-**engineerings? Which are the elements that
> configurate this kind of improvisation? can they be translated into other
> kind of interdisciplinary improvisations for collaboration so that fixed
> practices can get some liberation from rigid patterns and start to find
> consilience?
>
> Another possible inspiration can come from how children work together.
> Maybe some model to analyse can come from this kind of collaboration based
> on innocent vision in which mistakes and playing are welcome, and people do
> not feel afraid of making mistakes in front of experts of other fields.
> Trust and freedom are a basic features in any collaborative environment and
> certainly happens more among children than in trans-disciplinary bridges.
>
> Cristina
>
> El 20/07/12 11:16, michael nitsche escribió:
>
>> seems I cannot post to the group ...
>>
>> but on the note of Jazz and interdisciplinarity;
>>
>> Are you familiar with Fox Harrell's work?
>> Being more of an experimental person myself, I appreciate these kind of
>> hands on attempts of blending worlds.
>>
>> best
>>
>> michael
>>
>
> Michael Nitsche
> Associate Professor
> Digital World & Image Group
>
> Georgia Institute of Technology
> Digital Media/TSRB 318A
> 85 Fifth Street, NW
> Atlanta , Georgia 30308-1030
> http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~**nitsche<http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/%7Enitsche>
> http://dwig.lcc.gatech.edu/
> email: michael.nitsche[at]lcc.gatech.**edu <http://lcc.gatech.edu>
> p: +1 404 894 7000
> f: +1 404 894 2833
>
>
>> On Jul 19, 2012, at 10:00 PM, cristina miranda wrote:
>>
>> Pau, Paul, Roger, and all,
>>>
>>> I wonder if Jazz improvisations (in concrete when they merge with Jazz
>>> compositions) could serve as inspiration for a self-reflexivity that
>>> enables a self-organizing dialog between driving forces, epistemological
>>> biases and rigid methods to happen. Maybe a musician could help here to
>>> explore how this could be done.
>>> Cristina
>>>
>>> El 18/07/12 18:11, Paul Fishwick escribió:
>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>> Yes, we must acknowledge self-reflexivity. This is a first step:
>>>> acknowledging
>>>> our own biases and driving forces when we do research and practice. I
>>>> am not
>>>> sure how to put this into practice other than to stress it in a
>>>> collaboration.
>>>> -p
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> I completely agree with all that you have said, but I would add that
>>>>> for
>>>>> understanding each other's framework it's necessary to understand each
>>>>> own's framework. It's quite obvious but a high level of
>>>>> self-reflexivity is
>>>>> previously needed to open to the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my teaching and research I've found so many scientists, engineers,
>>>>> designers and artists with a total lack of this minimum
>>>>> self-reflexivity.
>>>>> It's a paradox, but they do what they do because they have been doing
>>>>> it
>>>>> this way for many time, and never asked themselves why they have been
>>>>> doing
>>>>> it this way, and if that could be done in another completely different
>>>>> way.
>>>>> By self-reflexivity I mean to think, know and explore the
>>>>> (epistemological/ontological) foundations of their practices and
>>>>> theories.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not telling that everyone should become a philosopher of science,
>>>>> technology of art, but at least they should know better and think about
>>>>> their discipline "foundations", This would make them better scientists,
>>>>> engineers, designers or artists. And would make them more open to the
>>>>> other, open to dialogue and collaboration.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've asked many times the same question to all types of teachers that
>>>>> have
>>>>> been trying to create this kind of transdisciplinary collaborations
>>>>> with
>>>>> their students: "How did it happen? Who finally made it?". And many of
>>>>> them
>>>>> told me that paradoxically for them the students more specialized in
>>>>> their
>>>>> discipline, those "best students", where the ones more open to
>>>>> collaborate
>>>>> and the ones that made better results out of their collaboration. I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know if this is ok for you as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I guess that for a mutual understanding it's necessary one's
>>>>> understanding at a deeper lever, and then later, maybe that deeper
>>>>> level
>>>>> on mutual understanding could happen somehow, somewhere. Maybe that
>>>>> would
>>>>> help to travel around those differents directions of collaboration you
>>>>> were
>>>>> mentioning.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pau
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2012/7/17 Paul Fishwick <fishwick@cise.ufl.edu>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pau:
>>>>>> First and foremost, each member of a collaboration needs to
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> each others' framework. I think this is what you are getting at with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> discussion of different, and sometimes, conflicting epistemologies and
>>>>>> ontologies. However, it may be fruitful, or just pragmatic, to agree
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> compromise by letting each "side" do the leading. In this way,
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>> wins. I'll provide an example.
>>>>>> As a computer scientist, my core interest is in mathematical and
>>>>>> computing
>>>>>> artifacts and processes. If I work with an artist, I will need to
>>>>>> understand that
>>>>>> artist but the artist also has to understand me. Let's say for the
>>>>>> sake
>>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> discussion that the artist is driven by creating works that are
>>>>>> "socially
>>>>>> activist" (they are trying to draw attention to a socioeconomic
>>>>>> problem).
>>>>>> I have to recognize that if I build something to help the artist
>>>>>> achieve
>>>>>> one of
>>>>>> these works, that I may be implicitly playing a supporting role in the
>>>>>> collaboration because social activism is not my driving force.
>>>>>> Actually,
>>>>>> programmers and computer scientists are used to these sorts of
>>>>>> collaborations where they play a supporting role.
>>>>>> Now, let's consider the other direction in the collaboration. In my
>>>>>>
>>>>> quest
>>>>>
>>>>>> to explore novel representations of computing artifacts, it would be
>>>>>>
>>>>> great
>>>>>
>>>>>> to improve these representations with the help of an artist or
>>>>>> designer.
>>>>>> Perhaps the end goal is for both parties to come to an agreement
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> the collaboration involves different projects, each sprouting from a
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> direction. This is a real challenge because it involves mutual
>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>> at a deep level. I am sure that there are some artists who view
>>>>>> computer
>>>>>> scientists only as doing stuff to help support their vision (by
>>>>>> creating
>>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> technology or piece of software to support their artwork), and there
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> computer scientists who view art and design purely as support vehicles
>>>>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> visual illustration purposes.
>>>>>> The question is whether the artist and scientist can engage in both
>>>>>> types of projects (different directions) and agree to support each
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> where appropriate. It would mean giving a little (by each) during a
>>>>>> multi-project
>>>>>> collaboration based on an agreed-upon theme of mutual interest
>>>>>> (climate
>>>>>> change for instance).
>>>>>> -p
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger, Aprille, Rasheed, Paul
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe it's not just only a methodological question, neither a
>>>>>>> technological aspect that pushes forward SEAD interactions. There
>>>>>>> are a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of types of enablors that could help create good SEAD experiences. We
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> must
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> look at each of them carefully.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Briefly I would say that methodologies (how to research) depend on
>>>>>>> epistemologies (what to research) and that depends on ontologies
>>>>>>> (what
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> the real/ the beings). There are some pieces that fit together better
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> than
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the others, and others don't fit at all, or at least are really hard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> could work together. It's like a lego....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some times, things work well together. For example Latour's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actor-Network
>>>>>
>>>>>> Theory (let's say, an epistemology) proved to fit great with
>>>>>>> etnography
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> (a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> methodology) as they shared also a great respect with material
>>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>> status (ontology) and its agency in Science and Technology studies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That
>>>>>
>>>>>> time pieces fitted well and STS, Antropology, Etnography are taking
>>>>>>> advantatge of this sinergy. As it is taking its course in Media
>>>>>>> Studies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other times you don't realize they don't fit until it's too late. You
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> start
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> working with somebody from another discipline, you set up what to do
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> some methodologies and techniques to work together, then you start
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> having
>>>>>
>>>>>> epistemological discussions about what is and what is not the object
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> research - they migth tolerate differences or they migth not- and
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> end
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> up having trouble with ontologies -about what deserves to be studied
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> it's relevant for the real...You did not know that before you
>>>>>>> started,
>>>>>>> maybe there was a great personal feeling, or an ideal context for
>>>>>>> developing a collaboration or collective work, but it simple did'nt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> out because you hit the hard stone. As Rasheed pointed out some times
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> "other side" doesn't share the same values, or doesn't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> tolerate/understand
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> other's values, and there's no point in collaboration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, you are an artist trying to work with an Historian
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> both love Art, you both share great personal feeling and have an
>>>>>>> ideal
>>>>>>> context for working together. You believe in the power of Art for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> enabling
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Social transformation. But the Historian conception of History gives
>>>>>>> relevance only to structure and Institutions as key agents in all
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> changes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and those changes can only be achieved through structural revolutions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> war. In that sense believes that Art is just a side-effect, and art
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> the artists are secondary examples, not driving forces at all. That
>>>>>>> Historian didn't believe in Art for social change that would lead
>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>> political change and then to structural and institutional change.
>>>>>>> Then,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> if
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> they don't tolerate each other's point of departure, collaboration
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> would
>>>>>
>>>>>> ultimately lead into failure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, this is just in a discoursive level, but as we've said, there
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> other factors that are related with the "ecosistem" where those
>>>>>>> collaborations operate: Political, Economic, Social, Ethical aspects
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> influence definetivelly those possibilities....Mutual understanding of
>>>>>>> those ecosystems' rules is needed. We migth take a look at all of
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> one
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> by one in order to recreate those enablers, but of course, SEAD
>>>>>>> interactions not always produce valuable content "per se".... inter
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> transdisciplinariety doesn't make it all into good as pointed out
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> before.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I also like Paul's suggestion to continue discussion in clarification
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> the questions arised by Rasheed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pau
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2012/7/11 roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pau
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> let me pick on your topic of 'bridges' and consilience
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> like you i think E O Wilson's concept of consilience turned out
>>>>>>>> not to be very productive and rather totalising - am not very
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> familiar
>>>>>
>>>>>> with Gould's " conscilience of
>>>>>>>> equal attention"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but yes- one of the way to enable science/engineering to
>>>>>>>> arts/design/humanities
>>>>>>>> is to find these bridging concepts
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i have been reading recently in the field of translation studies and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> found some interesting ideas- for instance of 'travelling concepts=
>>>>>>>> but also the idea that un-translatability exists and one needs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> methods
>>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> are well established in cross cultural translation and now
>>>>>>>> interdisciplinary
>>>>>>>> translation ( or inter-media)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there are bridges that are technological- when artists and
>>>>>>>> scientists
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the same tools then they start have overlapping epistemologies etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> paul fishwick in his white paper looks at how gaming technologies
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> collaboration enabling tool
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.**com/white-paper-abstracts/**
>>>>> abstracts/learning-computing-**through-game-experiences/<http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/white-paper-abstracts/abstracts/learning-computing-through-game-experiences/>
>>>>>
>>>>>> one area that is fertile right now is the science of complex networks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> has been found to be productive across the science and humanities
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do think that we need to start being more rigorous in discussing
>>>>>>>> collaboration - as depending on the context ( interdisciplinary,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> multi
>>>>>
>>>>>> disciplinary
>>>>>>>> and trans-disciplinary) there need to be differing approaches- but
>>>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>> collaboration as a learned skill is a bridging problem also
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it would perhaps be interesting to inventory these bridge areas that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> currently enabling collaboration between science/engineering with
>>>>>>>> arts/design
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> here in marseille the area of history and philosophy of science is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> strong and i have found some of the discussions interesting
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>
>>>>>> since history and philosophy of science is very disconnected from the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of science in general - at lunch today we were discussing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> meta-mathematics
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and meta-philosophy !
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>>> From: Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the book by allen repko on interdisciplinary theory and practice
>>>>>>>>> one of the things he does is discuss how different kinds of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> scientists
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have different cultures
>>>>>>>>> eg observational sciences like astronomy
>>>>>>>>> vs experimental sciences like chemistry
>>>>>>>>> vs field sciences like ecology
>>>>>>>>> vs mathematical sciences like complex networks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> they are all sciences but in fact the scientists have different
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> practices.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> does it make sense to combine them all or should we create
>>>>>>>>> translation methods between culturs of practice ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> in arts and humanities we also find similar variations on how
>>>>>>>>> the discipline deals with information about the world
>>>>>>>>> and intervening in the world= time based arts differ
>>>>>>>>> from architecture etc
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You mean creating "bridges"? I believe, as Loius Bec says, that
>>>>>>>> art
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is a rare transformational agent that would do that function.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Those other "methodological" or "epistemological" bridges are really
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to imagine as a universal set of tools. But of course there are
>>>>>>>> "practice-based-theories" that migth prove better bridges than
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> others.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> would lead into another deep philosophical debate....(that I also
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> enjoy a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lot, but migth be a whole new focus of discussion)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You migth not agree with Edgar O. Wilson's concept of consilience as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> proved to be reductionist, and at the end not taking seriously all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> fields
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of knowledge equally. But do you think that something not just
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> theoretical
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> could came out from what Stephen Jay Gould says about "conscilience
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> equal attention"? Are there already methodology or epistemology tools
>>>>>>>> coming out from that? Some techniques or strategies for "jumping
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> together"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as Gould says?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just wondering...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anway i know that the FECYT report and the process that led to
>>>>>>>>> it was very useful in spain= as are other efforts internationally
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for instance in the USA the mellon foundation has just funded a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>
>>>>>> project to promote integrating arts practice into the research
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> university
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://artsengine.umich.edu/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ArtsEngine National has been awarded a $500,000, 3.5 year grant
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>
>>>>>> the Andrew W. Mellon
>>>>>>>>> Foundation to create the first comprehensive guide to best
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> practices
>>>>>
>>>>>> in the integration of arts
>>>>>>>>> practice in U.S. research universities. To be published in Fall
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2015,
>>>>>
>>>>>> the guide is to identify models,
>>>>>>>>> obstacles, implementation strategies, costs, and impact on
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>
>>>>>> and faculty as well as on
>>>>>>>>> research, practice, and teaching in other knowledge areas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With this award, the Mellon Foundation has enabled the national
>>>>>>>>> network to make major progress
>>>>>>>>> toward our mission of integrating arts practice into the research
>>>>>>>>> university.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This activity of course is a heads on collision between the "studio
>>>>>>>>> based" artists practice
>>>>>>>>> versus the research model for the arts ( and all the debate on to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PhD
>>>>>
>>>>>> or not to PhD )
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As you already know In Europe there is the Studiolabs
>>>>>>>> innitaitive
>>>>>>>> http://www.studiolabproject.**eu/ <http://www.studiolabproject.eu/>that migth work quite in the same
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>
>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>> right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pau
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.**media.uoa.gr<Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/**mailman/listinfo/yasmin_**discussions<http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>>>>> subscribe
>>>>>>>> to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail
>>>>>>>> address,
>>>>>>>> name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>>>>> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
>>>>>>>> asked.
>>>>>>>> Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ("options
>>>>>
>>>>>> page").
>>>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>>>>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Roger Malina
>>>>>>>> I am in France at the moment
>>>>>>>> 33(0)6 80 45 94 47
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Announcing new version with videos of
>>>>>>>> Leonardo EBOOK on Arts Humanities and Complex Networks
>>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/**B007S0UA9Q<http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007S0UA9Q>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Announcing Leonardo Party in Los Angeles during Siggraph.
>>>>>>>> Aug 5-9 If you would like to be invited contact me.
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.**media.uoa.gr<Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/**mailman/listinfo/yasmin_**discussions<http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>>>>> subscribe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> enter
>>>>>
>>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>
>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pau Alsina González
>>>>>>> Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
>>>>>>> Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
>>>>>>> Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.**uoc.edu/<http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/>
>>>>>>> Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
>>>>>>> Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
>>>>>>> Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
>>>>>>> Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/**paualsina<http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aquest missatge s´adreça exclusivament a qui va destinat i pot
>>>>>>> contenir
>>>>>>> informació privilegiada o confidencial i dades de caràcter personal,
>>>>>>> la
>>>>>>> difusió de les quals és regulada per la Llei orgànica de protecció de
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> dades
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i la Llei de serveis de la societat de la informació. Si no sou la
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> persona
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> destinatària indicada (o la responsable de lliurar-lo a qui va
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> destinat),
>>>>>
>>>>>> no heu de copiar aquest missatge ni lliurar-lo a tercers per cap
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> concepte.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Si heu rebut aquest missatge per error o l´heu aconseguit per altres
>>>>>>> mitjans, us demanem que ens ho comuniqueu immediatament per aquesta
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> mateixa
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> via i l´elimineu irreversiblement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Abans d´imprimir aquest missatge electrònic penseu en el medi
>>>>>>> ambient.
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.**media.uoa.gr<Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/**mailman/listinfo/yasmin_**discussions<http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>>>> enter
>>>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>>> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.**media.uoa.gr<Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/**mailman/listinfo/yasmin_**discussions<http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>>>> to.
>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>>> enter
>>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pau Alsina González
>>>>> Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
>>>>> Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
>>>>>
>>>>> Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
>>>>> Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.**uoc.edu/<http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/>
>>>>> Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
>>>>> Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
>>>>> Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
>>>>> Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/**paualsina<http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Aquest missatge s´adreça exclusivament a qui va destinat i pot contenir
>>>>> informació privilegiada o confidencial i dades de caràcter personal, la
>>>>> difusió de les quals és regulada per la Llei orgànica de protecció de
>>>>> dades
>>>>> i la Llei de serveis de la societat de la informació. Si no sou la
>>>>> persona
>>>>> destinatària indicada (o la responsable de lliurar-lo a qui va
>>>>> destinat),
>>>>> no heu de copiar aquest missatge ni lliurar-lo a tercers per cap
>>>>> concepte.
>>>>> Si heu rebut aquest missatge per error o l´heu aconseguit per altres
>>>>> mitjans, us demanem que ens ho comuniqueu immediatament per aquesta
>>>>> mateixa
>>>>> via i l´elimineu irreversiblement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Abans d´imprimir aquest missatge electrònic penseu en el medi ambient.
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.**media.uoa.gr<Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/**mailman/listinfo/yasmin_**discussions<http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>>> to.
>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>> name, and
>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>>> on
>>>>> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.**media.uoa.gr<Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/**mailman/listinfo/yasmin_**discussions<http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions>
>>>>
>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>> to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
>>>> and password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
>>>> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.**media.uoa.gr<Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/**mailman/listinfo/yasmin_**discussions<http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions>
>>>
>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>
>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>> to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
>>> and password in the fields found further down the page.
>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
>>> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------**----------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.**media.uoa.gr<Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/**mailman/listinfo/yasmin_**discussions<http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions>
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>



--





Pau Alsina González
Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
Universitat Oberta de Catalunya

Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu

(+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>


Aquest missatge s´adreça exclusivament a qui va destinat i pot contenir
informació privilegiada o confidencial i dades de caràcter personal, la
difusió de les quals és regulada per la Llei orgànica de protecció de dades
i la Llei de serveis de la societat de la informació. Si no sou la persona
destinatària indicada (o la responsable de lliurar-lo a qui va destinat),
no heu de copiar aquest missatge ni lliurar-lo a tercers per cap concepte.
Si heu rebut aquest missatge per error o l´heu aconseguit per altres
mitjans, us demanem que ens ho comuniqueu immediatament per aquesta mateixa
via i l´elimineu irreversiblement.


Abans d´imprimir aquest missatge electrònic penseu en el medi ambient.
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

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HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.

[Yasmin_discussions] STEM TO STEAM

Lucinda

Thanks for joining this discussion on how to enable
collaboration between science/engineering and arts/design/humanities
today

Most of the yasmin list will not be familiar with the STEM to STEAM
acronyms as they are very american terms- ( most of YASMIN
is outside the US) it would be great if
you could explain, without acronyms !!, what the stem to steam
is all about - and why you think this approach enables
new forms of collaboration and problem solving

there are similar initiatives in europe but they are often carried
under new initiatives in public engagement ( see for instance
the STUDIOLAB initiative

http://studiolabproject.eu/about-studiolab-project

roger malina


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lucinda Presley <lucinda.presley@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Self-introduction: new subscriber
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>


Thank you, Charis.

I've also just subscribed to YASMIN and am looking forward to sharing our
mutual interests in the arts/science intersection.

I am Lucinda Presley. I am director of an institute that integrates the
fine arts with STEM (STEM to STEAM) in school and museum settings. We use
this integration to promote STEAM engagement, learning, and the 21st
century thinking skills.

I am very interested in ways that the intersection of the fine arts and
STEM promotes problem-solving and creative/innovation thinking.

Thank you.
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Self-introduction: new subscriber

Thank you, Charis.

I've also just subscribed to YASMIN and am looking forward to sharing our
mutual interests in the arts/science intersection.

I am Lucinda Presley. I am director of an institute that integrates the
fine arts with STEM (STEM to STEAM) in school and museum settings. We use
this integration to promote STEAM engagement, learning, and the 21st
century thinking skills.

I am very interested in ways that the intersection of the fine arts and
STEM promotes problem-solving and creative/innovation thinking.

Thank you.




On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Charis Charalampidi <
c.charalampidi@gmail.com> wrote:

> *Hello to everyone who reads this email!*
> *I have just subcribed to YASMIN emailing list and I am looking forward to
> participating in upcoming discussions.*
>
> *As proposed in the confimation email, I shall introduce myself a bit.*
> *My name is Charis Charalampidi, I live in Athens and just finished my 3rd
> year in studying Business Administration at Athens University of Economics
> and Business. **I am really interested in all art forms and moreover Asian
> cultures, and have had much experience working in NGOs and volunteering.*
>
> *Regards to all, *
> *C.*
> *
> *
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>



--
Lucinda Presley
Director
ICEE Success
Institute where Creativity Empowers Education Success
lucinda.presley@gmail.com
903-530-9019
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
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Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] consilience and trans-disciplinary bridges as enablors

dear Michael, dear all,

thank you for the good reference Michael. I found this link about
Harrell's work ( Interview with Fox Harrell by Anne Khaminwa): "How An
Artist-Scientist Conjurer Thinks, Works and Lives that can be
interesting to explore here. The article can be downloaded from:
http://cms.mit.edu/news/2011/05/
Other contributions can also be very pertinent to the discussion but
they are seminars so I do not have them and do not know how to access
them. In special it could be very good to access information about these
seminars but I am not sure they are published or accesible:

-"Working Across Disciplines: Crafting Interdisciplinary Projects,"
Moderator and Presenter. Ford Foundation Fellows Conference, Irvine, CA.
October 16, 2010;

- "Improvisation as a Way of Life: A Symposium," Panelist Brown
University, February 25, 2011.

Do you, or anyone else, have some more references in this sense? and in
concrete about processes that emerge in Jazz improvisations as possible
inspiration models for fostering interdisciplinarity between
art-science-humanities-engineerings? Which are the elements that
configurate this kind of improvisation? can they be translated into
other kind of interdisciplinary improvisations for collaboration so that
fixed practices can get some liberation from rigid patterns and start to
find consilience?

Another possible inspiration can come from how children work together.
Maybe some model to analyse can come from this kind of collaboration
based on innocent vision in which mistakes and playing are welcome, and
people do not feel afraid of making mistakes in front of experts of
other fields. Trust and freedom are a basic features in any
collaborative environment and certainly happens more among children than
in trans-disciplinary bridges.

Cristina

El 20/07/12 11:16, michael nitsche escribió:
> seems I cannot post to the group ...
>
> but on the note of Jazz and interdisciplinarity;
>
> Are you familiar with Fox Harrell's work?
> Being more of an experimental person myself, I appreciate these kind of hands on attempts of blending worlds.
>
> best
>
> michael

Michael Nitsche
Associate Professor
Digital World & Image Group

Georgia Institute of Technology
Digital Media/TSRB 318A
85 Fifth Street, NW
Atlanta , Georgia 30308-1030
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~nitsche
http://dwig.lcc.gatech.edu/
email: michael.nitsche[at]lcc.gatech.edu
p: +1 404 894 7000
f: +1 404 894 2833

>
> On Jul 19, 2012, at 10:00 PM, cristina miranda wrote:
>
>> Pau, Paul, Roger, and all,
>>
>> I wonder if Jazz improvisations (in concrete when they merge with Jazz compositions) could serve as inspiration for a self-reflexivity that enables a self-organizing dialog between driving forces, epistemological biases and rigid methods to happen. Maybe a musician could help here to explore how this could be done.
>> Cristina
>>
>> El 18/07/12 18:11, Paul Fishwick escribió:
>>> Paul
>>> Yes, we must acknowledge self-reflexivity. This is a first step:
>>> acknowledging
>>> our own biases and driving forces when we do research and practice. I am not
>>> sure how to put this into practice other than to stress it in a
>>> collaboration.
>>> -p
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> I completely agree with all that you have said, but I would add that for
>>>> understanding each other's framework it's necessary to understand each
>>>> own's framework. It's quite obvious but a high level of self-reflexivity is
>>>> previously needed to open to the other.
>>>>
>>>> In my teaching and research I've found so many scientists, engineers,
>>>> designers and artists with a total lack of this minimum self-reflexivity.
>>>> It's a paradox, but they do what they do because they have been doing it
>>>> this way for many time, and never asked themselves why they have been doing
>>>> it this way, and if that could be done in another completely different way.
>>>> By self-reflexivity I mean to think, know and explore the
>>>> (epistemological/ontological) foundations of their practices and theories.
>>>>
>>>> I am not telling that everyone should become a philosopher of science,
>>>> technology of art, but at least they should know better and think about
>>>> their discipline "foundations", This would make them better scientists,
>>>> engineers, designers or artists. And would make them more open to the
>>>> other, open to dialogue and collaboration.
>>>>
>>>> I've asked many times the same question to all types of teachers that have
>>>> been trying to create this kind of transdisciplinary collaborations with
>>>> their students: "How did it happen? Who finally made it?". And many of them
>>>> told me that paradoxically for them the students more specialized in their
>>>> discipline, those "best students", where the ones more open to collaborate
>>>> and the ones that made better results out of their collaboration. I don't
>>>> know if this is ok for you as well.
>>>>
>>>> So I guess that for a mutual understanding it's necessary one's
>>>> understanding at a deeper lever, and then later, maybe that deeper level
>>>> on mutual understanding could happen somehow, somewhere. Maybe that would
>>>> help to travel around those differents directions of collaboration you were
>>>> mentioning.
>>>>
>>>> Pau
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2012/7/17 Paul Fishwick <fishwick@cise.ufl.edu>
>>>>
>>>>> Pau:
>>>>> First and foremost, each member of a collaboration needs to understand
>>>>> each others' framework. I think this is what you are getting at with the
>>>>> discussion of different, and sometimes, conflicting epistemologies and
>>>>> ontologies. However, it may be fruitful, or just pragmatic, to agree to
>>>>> compromise by letting each "side" do the leading. In this way, everyone
>>>>> wins. I'll provide an example.
>>>>> As a computer scientist, my core interest is in mathematical and
>>>>> computing
>>>>> artifacts and processes. If I work with an artist, I will need to
>>>>> understand that
>>>>> artist but the artist also has to understand me. Let's say for the sake
>>>> of
>>>>> discussion that the artist is driven by creating works that are "socially
>>>>> activist" (they are trying to draw attention to a socioeconomic problem).
>>>>> I have to recognize that if I build something to help the artist achieve
>>>>> one of
>>>>> these works, that I may be implicitly playing a supporting role in the
>>>>> collaboration because social activism is not my driving force. Actually,
>>>>> programmers and computer scientists are used to these sorts of
>>>>> collaborations where they play a supporting role.
>>>>> Now, let's consider the other direction in the collaboration. In my
>>>> quest
>>>>> to explore novel representations of computing artifacts, it would be
>>>> great
>>>>> to improve these representations with the help of an artist or designer.
>>>>> Perhaps the end goal is for both parties to come to an agreement where
>>>>> the collaboration involves different projects, each sprouting from a
>>>>> different
>>>>> direction. This is a real challenge because it involves mutual
>>>>> understanding
>>>>> at a deep level. I am sure that there are some artists who view computer
>>>>> scientists only as doing stuff to help support their vision (by creating
>>>> a
>>>>> new
>>>>> technology or piece of software to support their artwork), and there are
>>>>> some
>>>>> computer scientists who view art and design purely as support vehicles
>>>> for
>>>>> their
>>>>> visual illustration purposes.
>>>>> The question is whether the artist and scientist can engage in both
>>>>> types of projects (different directions) and agree to support each other
>>>>> where appropriate. It would mean giving a little (by each) during a
>>>>> multi-project
>>>>> collaboration based on an agreed-upon theme of mutual interest (climate
>>>>> change for instance).
>>>>> -p
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger, Aprille, Rasheed, Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe it's not just only a methodological question, neither a
>>>>>> technological aspect that pushes forward SEAD interactions. There are a
>>>>> lot
>>>>>> of types of enablors that could help create good SEAD experiences. We
>>>>> must
>>>>>> look at each of them carefully.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Briefly I would say that methodologies (how to research) depend on
>>>>>> epistemologies (what to research) and that depends on ontologies (what
>>>> is
>>>>>> the real/ the beings). There are some pieces that fit together better
>>>>> than
>>>>>> the others, and others don't fit at all, or at least are really hard
>>>> that
>>>>>> could work together. It's like a lego....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some times, things work well together. For example Latour's
>>>> Actor-Network
>>>>>> Theory (let's say, an epistemology) proved to fit great with etnography
>>>>> (a
>>>>>> methodology) as they shared also a great respect with material culture
>>>>>> status (ontology) and its agency in Science and Technology studies.
>>>> That
>>>>>> time pieces fitted well and STS, Antropology, Etnography are taking
>>>>>> advantatge of this sinergy. As it is taking its course in Media Studies
>>>>> and
>>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other times you don't realize they don't fit until it's too late. You
>>>>> start
>>>>>> working with somebody from another discipline, you set up what to do
>>>> and
>>>>>> some methodologies and techniques to work together, then you start
>>>> having
>>>>>> epistemological discussions about what is and what is not the object to
>>>>>> research - they migth tolerate differences or they migth not- and you
>>>>> end
>>>>>> up having trouble with ontologies -about what deserves to be studied as
>>>>>> it's relevant for the real...You did not know that before you started,
>>>>>> maybe there was a great personal feeling, or an ideal context for
>>>>>> developing a collaboration or collective work, but it simple did'nt
>>>>> worked
>>>>>> out because you hit the hard stone. As Rasheed pointed out some times
>>>> the
>>>>>> "other side" doesn't share the same values, or doesn't
>>>>> tolerate/understand
>>>>>> other's values, and there's no point in collaboration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, you are an artist trying to work with an Historian because
>>>>> you
>>>>>> both love Art, you both share great personal feeling and have an ideal
>>>>>> context for working together. You believe in the power of Art for
>>>>> enabling
>>>>>> Social transformation. But the Historian conception of History gives
>>>>>> relevance only to structure and Institutions as key agents in all
>>>>> changes,
>>>>>> and those changes can only be achieved through structural revolutions
>>>> and
>>>>>> war. In that sense believes that Art is just a side-effect, and art
>>>> and
>>>>>> the artists are secondary examples, not driving forces at all. That
>>>>>> Historian didn't believe in Art for social change that would lead into
>>>>>> political change and then to structural and institutional change. Then,
>>>>> if
>>>>>> they don't tolerate each other's point of departure, collaboration
>>>> would
>>>>>> ultimately lead into failure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, this is just in a discoursive level, but as we've said, there are
>>>>>> other factors that are related with the "ecosistem" where those
>>>>>> collaborations operate: Political, Economic, Social, Ethical aspects
>>>> that
>>>>>> influence definetivelly those possibilities....Mutual understanding of
>>>>>> those ecosystems' rules is needed. We migth take a look at all of them
>>>>> one
>>>>>> by one in order to recreate those enablers, but of course, SEAD
>>>>>> interactions not always produce valuable content "per se".... inter or
>>>>>> transdisciplinariety doesn't make it all into good as pointed out
>>>> before.
>>>>>> I also like Paul's suggestion to continue discussion in clarification
>>>> of
>>>>>> the questions arised by Rasheed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pau
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2012/7/11 roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pau
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> let me pick on your topic of 'bridges' and consilience
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like you i think E O Wilson's concept of consilience turned out
>>>>>>> not to be very productive and rather totalising - am not very
>>>> familiar
>>>>>>> with Gould's " conscilience of
>>>>>>> equal attention"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but yes- one of the way to enable science/engineering to
>>>>>>> arts/design/humanities
>>>>>>> is to find these bridging concepts
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i have been reading recently in the field of translation studies and
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> found some interesting ideas- for instance of 'travelling concepts=
>>>>>>> but also the idea that un-translatability exists and one needs
>>>> methods
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> are well established in cross cultural translation and now
>>>>>>> interdisciplinary
>>>>>>> translation ( or inter-media)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there are bridges that are technological- when artists and scientists
>>>>> use
>>>>>>> the same tools then they start have overlapping epistemologies etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> paul fishwick in his white paper looks at how gaming technologies are
>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> collaboration enabling tool
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> http://seadnetwork.wordpress.com/white-paper-abstracts/abstracts/learning-computing-through-game-experiences/
>>>>>>> one area that is fertile right now is the science of complex networks
>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> has been found to be productive across the science and humanities
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do think that we need to start being more rigorous in discussing
>>>>>>> collaboration - as depending on the context ( interdisciplinary,
>>>> multi
>>>>>>> disciplinary
>>>>>>> and trans-disciplinary) there need to be differing approaches- but
>>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>> collaboration as a learned skill is a bridging problem also
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it would perhaps be interesting to inventory these bridge areas that
>>>>> are
>>>>>>> currently enabling collaboration between science/engineering with
>>>>>>> arts/design
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> here in marseille the area of history and philosophy of science is
>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> strong and i have found some of the discussions interesting
>>>> especially
>>>>>>> since history and philosophy of science is very disconnected from the
>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>> of science in general - at lunch today we were discussing
>>>>>> meta-mathematics
>>>>>>> and meta-philosophy !
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>> From: Pau Alsina <palsinag@uoc.edu>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the book by allen repko on interdisciplinary theory and practice
>>>>>>>> one of the things he does is discuss how different kinds of
>>>>> scientists
>>>>>>>> have different cultures
>>>>>>>> eg observational sciences like astronomy
>>>>>>>> vs experimental sciences like chemistry
>>>>>>>> vs field sciences like ecology
>>>>>>>> vs mathematical sciences like complex networks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> they are all sciences but in fact the scientists have different
>>>>>>> practices.
>>>>>>>> does it make sense to combine them all or should we create
>>>>>>>> translation methods between culturs of practice ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in arts and humanities we also find similar variations on how
>>>>>>>> the discipline deals with information about the world
>>>>>>>> and intervening in the world= time based arts differ
>>>>>>>> from architecture etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mean creating "bridges"? I believe, as Loius Bec says, that art
>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>> is a rare transformational agent that would do that function.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those other "methodological" or "epistemological" bridges are really
>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> to imagine as a universal set of tools. But of course there are
>>>>>>> "practice-based-theories" that migth prove better bridges than
>>>> others.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> would lead into another deep philosophical debate....(that I also
>>>>> enjoy a
>>>>>>> lot, but migth be a whole new focus of discussion)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You migth not agree with Edgar O. Wilson's concept of consilience as
>>>> it
>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> proved to be reductionist, and at the end not taking seriously all
>>>>> fields
>>>>>>> of knowledge equally. But do you think that something not just
>>>>>> theoretical
>>>>>>> could came out from what Stephen Jay Gould says about "conscilience
>>>> of
>>>>>>> equal attention"? Are there already methodology or epistemology tools
>>>>>>> coming out from that? Some techniques or strategies for "jumping
>>>>>> together"
>>>>>>> as Gould says?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just wondering...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anway i know that the FECYT report and the process that led to
>>>>>>>> it was very useful in spain= as are other efforts internationally
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for instance in the USA the mellon foundation has just funded a
>>>> major
>>>>>>>> project to promote integrating arts practice into the research
>>>>>> university
>>>>>>>> http://artsengine.umich.edu/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ArtsEngine National has been awarded a $500,000, 3.5 year grant
>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the Andrew W. Mellon
>>>>>>>> Foundation to create the first comprehensive guide to best
>>>> practices
>>>>>>>> in the integration of arts
>>>>>>>> practice in U.S. research universities. To be published in Fall
>>>> 2015,
>>>>>>>> the guide is to identify models,
>>>>>>>> obstacles, implementation strategies, costs, and impact on
>>>> students
>>>>>>>> and faculty as well as on
>>>>>>>> research, practice, and teaching in other knowledge areas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With this award, the Mellon Foundation has enabled the national
>>>>>>>> network to make major progress
>>>>>>>> toward our mission of integrating arts practice into the research
>>>>>>>> university.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This activity of course is a heads on collision between the "studio
>>>>>>>> based" artists practice
>>>>>>>> versus the research model for the arts ( and all the debate on to
>>>> PhD
>>>>>>>> or not to PhD )
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you already know In Europe there is the Studiolabs innitaitive
>>>>>>> http://www.studiolabproject.eu/ that migth work quite in the same
>>>> way,
>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>> right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pau
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
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>>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
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>>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Roger Malina
>>>>>>> I am in France at the moment
>>>>>>> 33(0)6 80 45 94 47
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Announcing new version with videos of
>>>>>>> Leonardo EBOOK on Arts Humanities and Complex Networks
>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007S0UA9Q
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Announcing Leonardo Party in Los Angeles during Siggraph.
>>>>>>> Aug 5-9 If you would like to be invited contact me.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>>> to.
>>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>> name,
>>>>>> and
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>>>> "Set
>>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pau Alsina González
>>>>>> Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
>>>>>> Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
>>>>>> Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
>>>>>> Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
>>>>>> Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
>>>>>> Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
>>>>>> Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aquest missatge s´adreça exclusivament a qui va destinat i pot contenir
>>>>>> informació privilegiada o confidencial i dades de caràcter personal, la
>>>>>> difusió de les quals és regulada per la Llei orgànica de protecció de
>>>>> dades
>>>>>> i la Llei de serveis de la societat de la informació. Si no sou la
>>>>> persona
>>>>>> destinatària indicada (o la responsable de lliurar-lo a qui va
>>>> destinat),
>>>>>> no heu de copiar aquest missatge ni lliurar-lo a tercers per cap
>>>>> concepte.
>>>>>> Si heu rebut aquest missatge per error o l´heu aconseguit per altres
>>>>>> mitjans, us demanem que ens ho comuniqueu immediatament per aquesta
>>>>> mateixa
>>>>>> via i l´elimineu irreversiblement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Abans d´imprimir aquest missatge electrònic penseu en el medi ambient.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>> to.
>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
>>>>> and
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>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>
>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
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>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pau Alsina González
>>>> Professor dels Estudis d'Arts i Humanitats
>>>> Universitat Oberta de Catalunya
>>>>
>>>> Web Estudis: http://arts-humanitats.uoc.edu
>>>> Blog Postgrau: http://laboralcentrodearte.uoc.edu/
>>>> Revista Artnodes: http://artnodes.uoc.edu
>>>>
>>>> (+34) 93 254 (2176) | palsinag@uoc.edu
>>>> Av. Tibidabo 39-43. Barcelona 08035
>>>> Blog: http://paualsina.wordpress.com
>>>> Twitter: @paualsina <http://twitter.com/#%21/paualsina>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aquest missatge s´adreça exclusivament a qui va destinat i pot contenir
>>>> informació privilegiada o confidencial i dades de caràcter personal, la
>>>> difusió de les quals és regulada per la Llei orgànica de protecció de dades
>>>> i la Llei de serveis de la societat de la informació. Si no sou la persona
>>>> destinatària indicada (o la responsable de lliurar-lo a qui va destinat),
>>>> no heu de copiar aquest missatge ni lliurar-lo a tercers per cap concepte.
>>>> Si heu rebut aquest missatge per error o l´heu aconseguit per altres
>>>> mitjans, us demanem que ens ho comuniqueu immediatament per aquesta mateixa
>>>> via i l´elimineu irreversiblement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Abans d´imprimir aquest missatge electrònic penseu en el medi ambient.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>
>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
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