Re: [Yasmin_discussions] simulation

Tnx Roger,
It's interesting to compare between the simulation of star evolving, and the image of rose in 'brain in a supercomputer'
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/henry_markram_supercomputing_the_brain_s_secrets.html
Is it an algorithms running on electrical nets?
" On April 27, 1992, the sculptor Ezra Orion directed the performance "SUPER CATHEDRAL I", http://www.orbit.zkm.de/?q=node/108 aiming laser beams perpendicularly and simultaneously around the world up to the sky and the infinity of the universe. This action is the final detachment of sculpture from the physicality that had governed it from prehistory, towards immense energy fields at the speed of light. The laser beams left the Solar System in five hours; today they are 18 light years from Earth. The laser beams join the cathedral of radio waves broadcast from Earth, and their height is around 90 light years. Orion proposed a continuation of this project, to be called "SUPER CATHEDRAL 4″ aiming for a unique interstellar cosmic arrangement. According to the laws of Riemann's non-Euclidian geometry, eventually the laser beam will execute a Moebius-strip-like loop in space, and return to its origin: the artist's body and consciousness. The transmitted galactic laser beam loop creates compression of space and time while uniting between space-time, subject (artist), and object (art)."

Avi.

-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of roger malina
Sent: א 31 ינואר 2010 23:40
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] simulation

yasminers

in astronomy the two most succesful simulations are those
of the evolution of a star from birth in the gas between the stars
to its death after exhausting its nuclear fuel=there are numerous
stellar evolution simulations available on line ( google stellar evolution
simulation)=pretty amazing =just click and watch

and the other is evolution of structure in the universe

here for instance is how a star evolves in temperature and brightness
calculated from a stellar evolution model= this star had the mass of the sun
and ends as a white dwarf

http://rainman.astro.illinois.edu/ddr/stellar/cgi-bin/output/movie0416531.mpg

this kind of simulation takes into account all the nuclear physics we know
and the physics of radiation transfer and opacity. amazingly succesful fit.
(but a gigantic unresolved mystery)

here is a simulation of evolution of structure in the universe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY24JAUsy5s
we have a really coherent description of the evolution of structure of
the universe (except for the fact that 97% of the content is dark matter
and dark energy, both of an unknown nature)

in both of these cases the simulations have status as 'tested hypotheses"

in both cases the simulation is presented as visual output-=in one
case a dynamic graph and the other a video

the fact that simulations have to be converted to visual output
(or sonified) introduces very strange biases in how the simulation
is displayed and interpreted-we tend to over emphasise structure even if its
a very small effect to guide the eye

the scientific method itself is changing, as simulations acquire
the status of explanations

roger
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] simulation

Hello everyone,

some of you know me but i'll shortly present myself for the ones who don't:
i am salvatore iaconesi, i tend to act in a very performative way in domains
that span across scientific research, arts, and the invention of new
practices and technologies. I am currently teaching a course called "Cross
media experimentations" at the faculty of architecture in Rome's University
La Sapienza, and i am the president of a peculiar publishing house called
FakePress: we don't publish any books but we create wonderful publications
for bodies, objects, architectures and environments.

I've been really enjoying the discussion on simulation, as it closely
concerns many of the things i do. And this is why i decided to give my
contribution after being a passive, but sincerely interested, reader for a
bit.

Yesterday we at FakePress published a webpage that performs in realtime a
simple analisys of internet's emotional state. You can see it here:

http://www.fakepress.it/

if you wait a bit while the indexes get calculated, you will see a minimal
graph forming before your eyes. This graph is generated by querying several
realtime search engines such as Collecta, OneRiot and by using the APIs
provided by several services such as twitter, friendfeed and facebook. User
contributions from the last 40 minutes of the web are analyzed to find
sentences and phrasing expressing emotional states. Emotions are classified
using the simple Plutchick scheme and we use about 2000 synonims and their
derivates to identify the terms we need.

It is something that we already saw in a number of different forms
(including the beautiful "We feel fine" by Sep Kamvar and Jonathan Harris)
and we created it in this form to achieve a precise set of results.

A thing first: i must tell you all that i was a little sad when i saw the
distinct predominance of "fear" as an emotion on a global scale

with this said, i would like to explain how this little production interacts
with the themes of simulation, and briefly describe the path that brought
FakePress to experimenting it.

language is a curious beast and when we confronted the objective to identify
emotions on a linguistic scale we faced an infinite series of problems:
idiom, cultural backgrounds, contexts, dependencies on time/place, slang,
irony and a lot more. What we did was to operate in two directions: on one
side, simulating various interpretative scenarios; on the other side, we
settled for a simplified scenario.

Wihle the second path was pretty straightforward (it involved analyzing only
sentences having a set of definite structures), the first idea (simulation
of interpretative scenarios for emotions) had quite a very suggestive
feeling to it, and it proved very interesting. What we came out with was a
modular system in which we could configure a scenario under the form of a
multidimensional matrix populated with weighting values that helped the
system select the contents that were most significant from the point of view
of emotion expression, both in terms of word usage and sentence structure.

We identified three procedures to be truly effective: turn the process on
itself, establishing feedback mechanisms; opening up the system to
interaction; finding out ways in which the information we were gathering
could be shown in an extremely synthetic and expressive form.

If yuou sum these things up, you easily see that what we were inconsciously
(yet scientifically) searching for was a simulative, emotional "machine":
something that was organic enough to be higly expressive in a naturally
synthetic fashon, dependent on relations with both external entities
(interaction) and introvert ones (feedback). A low-information, highly
expressive form of publication of complex information (emotion) using
information representation, transmission and simulation.

This is part of a series of researches we performed using a multitude of
approaches.

The OneAvatar project, for example (
http://www.artisopensource.net/OneAvatar/ ) saw us creating a wearable
technology whose objective was to "publish" digital sensations on a physical
body, opening up scenarios for innovative forms of communication, with
sensorial stimuli being sent multidirectionally across digital avatars,
physical bodies and with the possibility to even remix sensorialities, share
them, connect them to physical locations in time and space (at the Fabbrica
del Vapore in Milan we had this sensorial transmission be connected to a
hybrid videogame happening both in the digital and physical worlds).

Or with the Dead on Second Life project (
http://www.artisopensource.net/dosl/main.html ) in which we used artificial
intelligences and autonomous avatars to bring "back to (a) second life" Karl
marx, Coco Chanel and Franz Kafka. In this other project we simulated the
behaviour of these three characters by linguistic, physical and social
behaviour modeling techniques. Even here the objective was, in more than
one way, the design and implementation of a very low information "machine",
where for the low dose of information we intended the simple, natural
perception of the designed character: a truly complex piece of information,
yet expressed in a very simple natural form.

In all these projects three elements arise as being significative for the
discussion: the research on simulation as an act of modeling that is both
interactive and self-generated; the representation strategies and
methodologies; the search for highly expressive, low-information mechanisms.

Back to the beginning (the emotional graph), these three steps become truly
operative. Along the lines of the OneAvatar project (and on the Conference
Biofeedback project some of you already saw in Munich:
http://www.artisopensource.net/2009/12/05/conference-biofeedback/ ) we are
about to transform the emotional graph into a wearable tecnology.

Possibly swithcing to a more complex classification scheme (Keltner?) and
turning the system into something that "you can wear to fit" by configuring
it (what emotions do i want to wear? whose? regarding what places/times?
etc.), we will confront with all three of the aforementioned issues.

The act of identification of an emotion will be paired to an act of
simulation_for_evaluation and to an act of simulation_for_reenactment, with
a form of transcoding between the way the system identifies emotion and the
way we represent it on the body.

The act of representation will also involve several layers of simulation, as
representing an emotion with (for example) a flashing led is of little,
basic interest. It is, insetead, truly interesting to give a natural
sensation to the way that is chosen to represent an emotion (for example
something to do with chill for fear, throat for anger, etcetera, or by
following formalisms that approach the issues in ways that are comparable to
chakras or others).

And, last, the focus on low-dosages of highly expressive information, as the
key to successful implementations of natural forms of communication and
simulation. You touch fire with your finger, you get burnt: a low dosage of
very expressive information.

Hope not to have bothered you all with too long of a text, I wanted to get
this all out together as i feel it is as a very compact research path.

I would love to discuss with you all the design of the wearable device we
are building, as we are in that stage in which every contribution opens up
entire new areas for research.

regards to you all,
Salvatore

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:40 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> yasminers
>
>
> in both cases the simulation is presented as visual output-=in one
> case a dynamic graph and the other a video
>
> the fact that simulations have to be converted to visual output
> (or sonified) introduces very strange biases in how the simulation
> is displayed and interpreted-we tend to over emphasise structure even if
> its
> a very small effect to guide the eye
>
> the scientific method itself is changing, as simulations acquire
> the status of explanations
>
> roger
>
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[Yasmin_discussions] simulation

yasminers

in astronomy the two most succesful simulations are those
of the evolution of a star from birth in the gas between the stars
to its death after exhausting its nuclear fuel=there are numerous
stellar evolution simulations available on line ( google stellar evolution
simulation)=pretty amazing =just click and watch

and the other is evolution of structure in the universe

here for instance is how a star evolves in temperature and brightness
calculated from a stellar evolution model= this star had the mass of the sun
and ends as a white dwarf

http://rainman.astro.illinois.edu/ddr/stellar/cgi-bin/output/movie0416531.mpg

this kind of simulation takes into account all the nuclear physics we know
and the physics of radiation transfer and opacity. amazingly succesful fit.
(but a gigantic unresolved mystery)

here is a simulation of evolution of structure in the universe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY24JAUsy5s
we have a really coherent description of the evolution of structure of
the universe (except for the fact that 97% of the content is dark matter
and dark energy, both of an unknown nature)

in both of these cases the simulations have status as 'tested hypotheses"

in both cases the simulation is presented as visual output-=in one
case a dynamic graph and the other a video

the fact that simulations have to be converted to visual output
(or sonified) introduces very strange biases in how the simulation
is displayed and interpreted-we tend to over emphasise structure even if its
a very small effect to guide the eye

the scientific method itself is changing, as simulations acquire
the status of explanations

roger
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation and avatars, new technologies

Here is a post sent to me by Teoman Madra:

note: there was an attached image with the text: "there is nothing new in art except talent"

>teoman madra namoet2@gmail.com www.spq2.blogspot.com
>
>
>i am a yasminer following up the simulation discussions and trying to adapt the discussiong
>to my own concerns
>
>
>secondlife is difficult to comprehend for me and being still quite in different to it and rather not so interested also
>i did abstract photography, digital compositions, random croppings,
>animations, still camera animations equaling to and getting finalized as photogramms,
>(this was my start) , recently i try to concentrate on normal photography simple, within stylish subjective personal controls.
>About my computer simulatons i just cannot decide if they are real or virtual
>
>for me new media art is using new media in your personal manner for new art
>as mcluhan would say -not using new media as you were you used to handle the old media-
>here when i do all above do i deal with new aesthetics do people care for
>new aesthetics or why dont they do new musics respond to contemporary art
>items above as their expansions do we simulate life in our artistic creativities now adays ,
>how developped is internet explorer 2007 for you does it suffocate you,
>is my attached photo a simulation may be or how real it is
>simulations as exact mimicry with computers that are latest output of technology, is perhaps
>not so creative for marshall mcluhan questiionings, should someone update them
>*mcluhan concerns for new technological tools- to what happens today
>
>
>in my site i just say that i am trying to understand the cyberspace since 2000
>and like a phantasy statement i do photograms since 1964 and organize multi media meetings with audience at cultural centers, performances, shows, videoclips throughout years -for 4 decades- and my images are not virtual digitals nor simulations whether analogue or through computers...
>and when they are from computers in my cases they come from the deconstructions and misusage of available
>computers systems mostly from their bugs and their non complete perfections so will it be possible to build up a
>theory for the random accidental things to produce from new media as new visual
>aesthetical end items... re art with photography, pc softwares, video cameras doing
>off centered approaches etc
>actually my inquiry is a real one to get your opinions regarding things in my sites re their virtual or real states of videoclips and abstract images
>
> www.newmediakitchen.com www.spq2.blogspot.com
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] AROUND SIMULATION and Time and are you living in a computer simulation?

Dear Jennifer & All
I addressed the question of Art fuzzy borders between 'virtual' & 'real' in 'Time - space compression in cyberspace art'
http://www.artciencia.com/Admin/Ficheiros/AVIROSEN444.pdf

"The permanent interconnection between both virtual and empiric worlds introduces a new way
of being and new ontological philosophy. Karl Popper's theory of the three worlds is dramatically
altered. Traditionally the classic world 3 of hypotheses can never influence directly the
empirical world 1 of physical "objects" and vice versa. To achieve this, the mediation of
subjective reality, human thoughts, feelings etc. of world 2 is necessary. Cyberspace
alters that fact. For example, a surfer may use an on-line internet application that controls
and displays a mutation of DNA material or integrated circuits embedded in biological cells.
A theory of the function of these circuits finds the way to world 3. Sensors (world 1) transmit
feedback data from the electro-biological cells. While the cyberspace is functioning, there is
a real-time direct feedback of world 1, world 3 and world 2 (the surfer). The electro-biological
cells are now part of surfer's extended body and his nervous system. Within interconnected cyberspace,
world 3 directly affects world 1, and world 2. Popper's original discrete, linear relation of world 1, 2
and 3 becomes holistic real-time hyper-sphere. This ontological shift affects artistic quantities and
qualities which originally defined the artistic object. Art work (world 1) can be controlled and altered
by gadgets and real-time predictive software (world 3) causing art consumers to decide and act in the
creative scene (world 2). These acts create a closed loop 'duree' of art, interconnecting the three worlds.
The cyberspace can be comprehended as a container of Platonic ideas that symbolizes the Platonic triangles
and tables that emerge from mathematical algorithms. The data can be manipulated, altered and copied by
the demiurge (the surfer)."

Surfer's interpretation is the voice of chief, king, or the gods...

Jennifer, I think that's what Baudrilllard meant when asserting : "We will no longer be able to find the
objects and events that existed before the cyber immersion."

Best,

Avi.

-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)
Sent: ש 30 ינואר 2010 02:11
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] AROUND SIMULATION and Time and are you living in a computer simulation?

Avi Wrote: "Jean Baudrillad argued that once one has passed beyond this point
of detachment from the real, the process becomes irreversible. We will
no longer be able to find the objects and events that existed before
the cyber immersion. We will not be able to find the history that had
been before cyberspace. The original essence of art, the original
concept of history have disappeared, all now is part of a real-time
holistic data sphere inseparable from its models of perfection and
simulation. The cyberspace compressed the time and space to a short
circuit hyper-reality.

The cyberspace is the "meme" database
for further construction/deconstruction of net audiovisual mutual
memory sequences consumed by other cyber-flâneurs.

Google, YouTube and its partners become a giant hub, dominating cyber-culture, global
networked economy, surfers' language and behavior. The Cyberspace is an
extension of our foot, eye skin and nervous system positioned on
torus-like topology. The real and the virtual are one…"

Dear All,

I'm glad that the word 'meme' has dropped in relation to the real and the virtual, time and space.

I've been
dying to re-visit Nick Bostroms paper with you: Are you
living in a computer simulation? (http://www.simulation-argument.com/)
Ergo, is what we think is real, really a simulation? The chances seem
to be really high! Thinking about the universe as a quantum computer
(Seth Lloyd). The real in the virtual, in the real, in the virtual....etc.

Let's just take the
idea that we are living in a giant simulation for 'real'. As an artist I am interested in the bigger picture, the meaning from a
distant perspective. I am interested in your opinion about what
simulation then means in relation to life, to evolution, if we are actually living in a simulation?
Referring to Pier Luigi's mentioning of simulation as a global resource
and behaviour. Is simulation a meme of life? What role does art have in such a simulation? Is it a form of materialized thought, a form of cognitive software? A tool to change our brains, prepare them for the next step in evolution?

The 'real' is a shifting concept in time, what is considered real or
unreal now, changes as technology changes, but also by the memes in our
brain.
What we imagine now, becomes real in the future. It might be
interesting to consider the Edge's 2010 question, "How has The Internet
changed
the way you think?" In a sense has, literally changed you synaptic structures. Can you remember what it was like to not have a
computer?

Avi refering to Baudrilllard: "We will no longer be able to find the
objects and events that existed before the cyber immersion."

Perhaps it is indeed the very structure of our brain that evolves with the aid
of art and technology? Losing the objects and events because our brain has changed... Here I am thinking
about for instance Julian Jaynes idea of the bicameral mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes. In which he suggests that ancient peoples did not possess an introspective mind-space, but instead had their
behavior directed by auditory hallucinations, which they interpreted as
the voice of their chief, king, or the gods.

just some new blurbs for you...

Jennifer
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[Yasmin_discussions] yasmin on line again= this is not a simulation

Yasminers

As you may have noticed our heated discussion
about simulation suddenly went quiet- the pleasure
of asynchronous communication= the system gave
us all time to think ! If you send a post that did not
get through please re-post !!

Personally I would like to bring in the science end
of simulation which has been pretty absent from this
discussion.

Numeric simulations have introduced new ways of
making scientific hypotheses= particular in areas of
complex and non linear systems where it has been difficult
to frame hypotheses in the form of "compact" descriptions
that we associate with equations like E=MC2.

As pointed out by Katherine Hayles ( and others) such
simulations are confirmed through a process of retrodiction
rather than a process of prediction= climate change models
for instance are tested against historical data and the
predictions they are used to make always have large
uncertainties associated with the uncertainties in the
physical theories coded in the models as well as available
historical data. Such systems are also often unstable
(the butterfly effect).

It is also notoriously difficult to validate such large scale
digital simulations= in astronomical simulations of the
evolution of structure of the universe the scientific community
has generated a number of "test cases" which all simulations
are tested against to see if the simulations agree.

We had an interesting seminar with historian of science
patrick mccray at IMERA
http://www.olats.org/projetpart/imera/2008/mono_index.php
<http://www.olats.org/projetpart/imera/2008/mono_index.php>Where we
discussed the impact of computer science on
the arts, humanities and the sciences and the area of
simulation was an area that emerges as a cross disciplinary
theme that allows new kinds of theory both in the humanities
and the sciences

some of this overlaps with the topic area that we will be
exploring at the NETSCI Leonardo Satellite Conference
on the Arts, Humanities and Complex Systems.
http://artshumanities.netsci2010.net/
<http://artshumanities.netsci2010.net/>we will shortly be announcing the
speakers at this conference.
The science of complex systems introduces new laws that
are applicable in some situations of simulation of complex systems
(for instance the way that people cluster can be modeled in interesting
ways
http://www.barabasilab.com/pubs/CCNR-ALB_Publications/200908-03_PhilTransRSoc-SpatialConnectivity/200908-03_PhilTransRSoc-SpatialConnectivity.pdf

Understanding spatial connectivity
of individuals with non-uniform
population density
BY PU WANG1,2 AND MARTA C. GONZÁLEZ1,*
1
We construct a two-dimensional geometric graph connecting individuals placed
in space
within a given contact distance. The individuals are distributed using a
measured
country's density of population.We observe that while large clusters (group
of individuals
connected) emerge within some regions, they are trapped in detached urban
areas owing
to the low population density of the regions bordering them. To understand
the emergence
of a giant cluster that connects the entire population, we compare the
empirical geometric
graph with the one generated by placing the same number of individuals
randomly in
space. We find that, for small contact distances, the empirical distribution
of population
dominates the growth of connected components, but no critical percolation
transition is
observed in contrast to the graph generated by a random distribution of
population. Our
results show that contact distances from real-world situations as for WIFI
and Bluetooth
connections drop in a zone where a fully connected cluster is not observed,
hinting that
human mobility must play a

I would be interested in other comments on how simulations are being used
across the sciences and humanities to generate new kinds of theories

Roger
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] AROUND SIMULATION and Time and are you living in a computer simulation?

Avi Wrote: "Jean Baudrillad argued that once one has passed beyond this point
of detachment from the real, the process becomes irreversible. We will
no longer be able to find the objects and events that existed before
the cyber immersion. We will not be able to find the history that had
been before cyberspace. The original essence of art, the original
concept of history have disappeared, all now is part of a real-time
holistic data sphere inseparable from its models of perfection and
simulation. The cyberspace compressed the time and space to a short
circuit hyper-reality.

The cyberspace is the "meme" database
for further construction/deconstruction of net audiovisual mutual
memory sequences consumed by other cyber-flâneurs.

Google, YouTube and its partners become a giant hub, dominating cyber-culture, global
networked economy, surfers' language and behavior. The Cyberspace is an
extension of our foot, eye skin and nervous system positioned on
torus-like topology. The real and the virtual are one…"

Dear All,

I'm glad that the word 'meme' has dropped in relation to the real and the virtual, time and space.

I've been
dying to re-visit Nick Bostroms paper with you: Are you
living in a computer simulation? (http://www.simulation-argument.com/)
Ergo, is what we think is real, really a simulation? The chances seem
to be really high! Thinking about the universe as a quantum computer
(Seth Lloyd). The real in the virtual, in the real, in the virtual....etc.

Let's just take the
idea that we are living in a giant simulation for 'real'. As an artist I am interested in the bigger picture, the meaning from a
distant perspective. I am interested in your opinion about what
simulation then means in relation to life, to evolution, if we are actually living in a simulation?
Referring to Pier Luigi's mentioning of simulation as a global resource
and behaviour. Is simulation a meme of life? What role does art have in such a simulation? Is it a form of materialized thought, a form of cognitive software? A tool to change our brains, prepare them for the next step in evolution?

The 'real' is a shifting concept in time, what is considered real or
unreal now, changes as technology changes, but also by the memes in our
brain.
What we imagine now, becomes real in the future. It might be
interesting to consider the Edge's 2010 question, "How has The Internet
changed
the way you think?" In a sense has, literally changed you synaptic structures. Can you remember what it was like to not have a
computer?

Avi refering to Baudrilllard: "We will no longer be able to find the
objects and events that existed before the cyber immersion."

Perhaps it is indeed the very structure of our brain that evolves with the aid
of art and technology? Losing the objects and events because our brain has changed... Here I am thinking
about for instance Julian Jaynes idea of the bicameral mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes. In which he suggests that ancient peoples did not possess an introspective mind-space, but instead had their
behavior directed by auditory hallucinations, which they interpreted as
the voice of their chief, king, or the gods.

just some new blurbs for you...

Jennifer
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] AROUND SIMULATION and Tim

Dear All,

I wanted to remind you of the technological idea of Claytronics, programmable
matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJEMfAg5l2w

Do you think that one day
such technology might allow us to have 'real' Avatars, allowing us to create
semi VR humanoids to prepare Mars for a physical colonization?

Might it work like current technologies used for filming for VR
realities? We might have a VR simulation
of environments of Mars, and by capturing human movement, like is being
done for movies like Avatar, be able to move materials with these
nanoscale robots on the real Mars...with a time difference
ofcourse...but that wouldn't really matter would it...?

Jennifer
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[Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation

Hi all,

it seems the discussion about simulation sounds interesting, with many positions and side topics. To remain sticky to the simulation topic here a text Giuseppe O. Longo sent to the discussion: "Remarks on Computer Simulation".

Giuseppe O. Longo is an information theoretician, epistemologist and writer. He contributed to the diffusion of mathematical information theory in Italy. He has done reasearch mainly in source coding theory. Currently, his interests involve artificial intelligence, roboethics and the relationships between man and computer, art and science, science and technology, cognition and ethics. He translated works by Gregory Bateson, Marvin Minsky, Douglas Hofstadter and others into Italian. As a writer, he has published novels, short stories and theatre pieces translated in several languages.
http://www2.units.it/~giuseppelongo/english.htm

His text is here: http://www.noemalab.org/download/Longo_Remarks_on_Computer_Simulation.pdf

Best,

Pier Luigi

--
Pier Luigi Capucci
e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
web: http://www.noemalab.org/plc/plc.html
skype: plcapucci

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, remediation

So when does a religion think its not a religion? When its insists it
can fully account for the simulation!

Materialist approaches have yet to adequately account for first-person
experience or predict many of the properties that emerge from human
interactions. Experience cannot be collapsed and explained away, but
as multiple perspectives arise from different ways of knowing, they
can be taken together to inform a more comprehensive view.

What is implicitly dualist about acknowledging embodiment? Recognizing
the integral role played by physicality in the shaping of conscious
experience might introduce humility into discussions that so often
don't even seem to be aware of their own solipsism. At least
embodiment encourages awareness of the ecological interactions that
enable us to have these conversations in the first place.

Regarding some of the other posts - It's not surprising to see
attempts to reduce the ineffable to conceptual categories end up, once
again, in the realm of frustrated nihilism. The slippery slope of
relativism always strikes me as misguided relationalism. Why not opt
for relational ontologies (as Barad seems to advocate, as does Smolin)
that focus on the central importance of interactions and qualities?
Aren't relativism and reductionism two sides of the same partially
useful but ultimately frustrated coin?

---

david mcconville
director, noospheric research division
http://www.elumenati.com

On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:40 AM, Simon Biggs wrote:

> If what is an assertion concerning a relativistic argument can be
> absolute
> then I am happy to be considered an absolutist. At the very least I am
> clearly confused ;)
>
> You reference Varela and the idea of the embodied mind. I would
> rather speak
> of the expanded self or, perhaps more precisely, the distributed self.
> Arguments about embodied minds, to some degree, are still weighed
> down with
> an implicit dualism. The idea of the distributed self posits the
> self as a
> construct or set of constructs that exist within, because of and
> with affect
> upon, various networks (in short, relative agency). These networks
> are of
> many kinds but the social is key to many, if not most, of them. The
> self
> does not exist in this context as an identifiable thing but rather
> as an
> emergent phenomena that appears to have some degree of coherence.
> Latour is
> probably the thinker who has considered this model of self most
> carefully,
> although Don Idhe has also written on this with a particularly
> interesting
> take.
>
> Whilst I enjoy much of Varela's writings I find his later work pretty
> difficult (his early work with Maturana is brilliant). His Buddhist
> faith
> immediately placed him in a position where he could not employ certain
> frameworks, particularly those of a phenomenological and
> post-phenomenological persuasion. Buddhism might be the most
> attractive of
> religions, but it is still a religion. It requires you have faith
> (at the
> very least, in yourself) and that is absolutist.
>
> I am not assuming the independent existence of things beyond our
> experience
> (I wouldn't use the word conceptualisation here as that once again
> risks a
> dualistic interpretation) but identify experience as key. This is
> another
> way of saying that what things might be is likely to be found in their
> relations and interactions rather than in themselves.
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
>
> Research Professor
> edinburgh college of art
> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk
>
> Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
> CIRCLE research group
> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>
> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> www.littlepig.org.uk
> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>
>
>
> From: david mcconville <id@elumenati.com>
> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:24:57 -0500
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, remediation
>
> Simon,
>
> You make an interesting absolute assertion here. It seems that
> asserting that we cannot directly experience "things" is not the same
> as saying that we cannot have direct experience. "Things" are
> representational constructs that arise from our after-the-fact
> analysis. Related to this, Varela et al (in The Embodied Mind)
> critique phenomenologists for trying to "recapture the richness of
> experience" through a "discourse about that experience," (p.19) while
> many others - Buddhists in particular - have cited that scientific
> materialism has no framework for first-person explorations of
> consciousness.
>
> Sakyong Mipham echoes Whitehead's Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness
> (and centuries of Buddhist teachings) by pointing out that "we're
> always trying to project a concrete world onto a fluid process,
> mistaking our ever-changing experience for a self." Instead of
> attempting to conceptualize after-the-fact, many non-conceptual
> practices are focused on direct experience - not on attempting to
> impossible task of directly experiencing "things" but on letting go of
> this compulsion to conceptualize. Mipham continues "Like the elements,
> this kind of wisdom doesn't need to be propped up. It is a direct
> experience of reality, empty and ungraspable."
>
> Are you assuming an independent existence of "things" beyond our
> conceptualization of them? Alternately, if all phenomena are converted
> into sense-able processes through our embodied sense perceptions,
> can't it be said that they co-arise with our perception of them?
> Wouldn't this make the after-the-fact attempts to represent the
> experience the true mediation process?
>
> ---
>
> david mcconville
> director, noospheric research division
> http://www.elumenati.com
>
>
>
> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland,
> number SC009201
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
> mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
> the page.
>
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> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, phenomena

i tend to agree with federica.

i see a lot of the argument that puts togehter things, actions, and words as
events as creating some kind of discursive short-circuit that either can be
both epistemological liberalizing and frustrating. even though we may talk
about sentences as being an event, we still construct them using subjects,
objects and verbs, and we communicate our experiences through those
frameworks (here i'm taking communication simply is a highly
conventionalized collection of symbols). again, any reader already knows
that me eating an apple are in a set of relationships that, unless we change
the sentence (for those reading) or the action (for those perceiving it)
cannot be undone.

i'm coming from an sociological/anthropological perspective, not a
philosophical one, and am more interested in understanding conventions than
in debunking them - a position aligned with Latour's ANT perspective (since
people here are bringing his name).
i sometimes discussions about art and non-art worlds become so blurred that
we don't even know what exactly we are discussing - as some think these are
just one thing, others experience those things *very* differently. in my
view this blurring might compromise discussions of simulation, mediation,
and perception.

leoC

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 3:52 PM, Simon Biggs <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk> wrote:

> Yes, all good points. I defer to this argument. However, I wasn¹t trying to
> position Barad as a phenomenologist but to situate her argument in a larger
> discourse, of which I think phenomenology is an important part. I also
> referred to Latour, who comes from a different perspective again (neither
> post-humanist or phenomenological). My own position is in neither
> post-humanist or humanist.
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
>
> Research Professor
> edinburgh college of art
> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk
>
> Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
> CIRCLE research group
> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>
> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> www.littlepig.org.uk
> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>
>
>
> From: "fmarineo@libero.it" <fmarineo@libero.it>
> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:03:40 +0100
> To: yasmin_discussions <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, phenomena
>
> Simon,
> I don't believe that the way Barad speaks about phenomena and the way
> phenomenology intends phenomena are similar. In fact, Barad discusses this
> topic in detail in "Meeting the Universe Halfway", where she affirms that
> her use of the term phenomenon, which she admits belonging to a specific
> philosophical tradition, indicates neither the thing in itself nor the
> thing
> as it is perceived (as in phenomenology), but the "intra-action" (a term
> with which she replaces "interaction" so as not run the risk of talking
> about relations between two pre-existing elements, like subject/object)of
> an
> object and the measuring agencies, which both emerge from intra-action.
> Phenomena in Barad's sense are real physical entities (which makes her a
> realist, not a constructionist) that nonetheless are not given as separate
> in advance. Surely, they do not pertain to perception as the faculty of an
> autonomous subject.
> What follows is necessarily a post-humanist philosophy, about continuous
> mediations, hybrids, simulations, enactments and performances, whereas the
> phenomenon in phenomenology still belongs to a humanist philosophy that
> looks for correspondences between subjects and objects, still relying on a
> narrative of divisions (such as interiority/exteriority).
>
> Best,
> Federica
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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> In
> the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
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> your
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> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
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>
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> SC009201
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>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Leo Cardoso
Graduate student
Butler School of Music
University of Texas at Austin
leocardoso@mail.utexas.edu
(512) 216-8205
http://leocardoso.org/
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, phenomena

Yes, all good points. I defer to this argument. However, I wasn¹t trying to
position Barad as a phenomenologist but to situate her argument in a larger
discourse, of which I think phenomenology is an important part. I also
referred to Latour, who comes from a different perspective again (neither
post-humanist or phenomenological). My own position is in neither
post-humanist or humanist.

Best

Simon

Simon Biggs

Research Professor
edinburgh college of art
s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk

Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
CIRCLE research group
www.eca.ac.uk/circle/

simon@littlepig.org.uk
www.littlepig.org.uk
AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk

From: "fmarineo@libero.it" <fmarineo@libero.it>
Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:03:40 +0100
To: yasmin_discussions <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, phenomena

Simon,
I don't believe that the way Barad speaks about phenomena and the way
phenomenology intends phenomena are similar. In fact, Barad discusses this
topic in detail in "Meeting the Universe Halfway", where she affirms that
her use of the term phenomenon, which she admits belonging to a specific
philosophical tradition, indicates neither the thing in itself nor the thing
as it is perceived (as in phenomenology), but the "intra-action" (a term
with which she replaces "interaction" so as not run the risk of talking
about relations between two pre-existing elements, like subject/object)of an
object and the measuring agencies, which both emerge from intra-action.
Phenomena in Barad's sense are real physical entities (which makes her a
realist, not a constructionist) that nonetheless are not given as separate
in advance. Surely, they do not pertain to perception as the faculty of an
autonomous subject.
What follows is necessarily a post-humanist philosophy, about continuous
mediations, hybrids, simulations, enactments and performances, whereas the
phenomenon in phenomenology still belongs to a humanist philosophy that
looks for correspondences between subjects and objects, still relying on a
narrative of divisions (such as interiority/exteriority).

Best,
Federica

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, relativism

Simon writes:
Nothing is trustworthy,
> whether they are words or things. Therefore, one is unable to distinguish
> between words and things. This is the nihilistic base-line of much of
> phenomenological and post-structuralist thought and what Baudrillard means,
> in part, when he writes of the simulacra.
>
> I still don¹t see any argument beyond that position ­ except through a leap
> of faith that there is an objective reality. I am not keen on leaping before
> looking, which leaves me stuck on one side of the argument. The difference
> between scepticism and nihilism is too fine.
>

I don't see the reason of opposing relativism and universalism here. Nor do I lament the loss of what existed before simulacra (what?), or postmodernism (and posthumanism).
The alternative to believing in essential truth is not declaring that objectivity is pure rhetoric, but rather trying to escape this dualistic trap still dictated by an essentialist presupposition (binary thinking!!!).
Standpoint Epistemology, for example, sustains a symmetry between the subject and the object of knowledge equating strong reflexivity with "strong objectivity"(Sandra Harding, "Strong Objectivity and Socially Situated Knowledge", 1991). Haraway, then, redefines relativism as partiality so as to transform it into an epistemic device ( as noted by F. García Selgas, in "Feminist Epistemologies for Critical Social Theory",2004).
...

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, phenomena

Simon,
I don't believe that the way Barad speaks about phenomena and the way phenomenology intends phenomena are similar. In fact, Barad discusses this topic in detail in "Meeting the Universe Halfway", where she affirms that her use of the term phenomenon, which she admits belonging to a specific philosophical tradition, indicates neither the thing in itself nor the thing as it is perceived (as in phenomenology), but the "intra-action" (a term with which she replaces "interaction" so as not run the risk of talking about relations between two pre-existing elements, like subject/object)of an object and the measuring agencies, which both emerge from intra-action. Phenomena in Barad's sense are real physical entities (which makes her a realist, not a constructionist) that nonetheless are not given as separate in advance. Surely, they do not pertain to perception as the faculty of an autonomous subject.
What follows is necessarily a post-humanist philosophy, about continuous mediations, hybrids, simulations, enactments and performances, whereas the phenomenon in phenomenology still belongs to a humanist philosophy that looks for correspondences between subjects and objects, still relying on a narrative of divisions (such as interiority/exteriority).

Best,
Federica

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, remediation

Simon wrote:

"Further to this thread; Barad¹s argument, that the important question isn¹t
whether reality is objectively perceivable or not but rather the affect of
perception upon what reality appears to be, is quite compelling. Barad¹s
argument, using the example of the apparent duality of light, is that it is
through the process (or perhaps, more accurately, the ³interaction²) of
perception that reality, the material, is made. How we look at light
determines what light is (wave or particle?). This is what she calls
Oagential realism.¹ It does allow a reconciliation between positions of a
sort ­ although after some thought it does appear to be a phenomenological
position. Barad does take sides here, just with a lot of smoke and mirrors."

Philosophy is a meaningful foundation for inquiring minds; nevertheless,
experience is more an action and a process rather than an intellectual
challenge. Objective reality is an old philosophical question (and often
sterile), and while it has its place in parsing issues of simulation
arguments, the simulation arguments themselves are currently gathering
around the fields of neuroscience and artificial general intelligence. I'll
address this area in a *new* topic/thread tomorrow.

Best,

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More
BFA, MSc, MPhil
PhD - writing up, Planetary Collegium, University of Plymouth,
Fellow: Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies
Visiting Scholar: 21st Century Medicine
Advisor: Singularity University
Board of Directors: Humanity+

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] AROUND SIMULATION and Time

Dear All,

Jean Baudrillad argued that once one has passed beyond this point of detachment from the real, the process becomes irreversible. We will no longer be able to find the objects and events that existed before the cyber immersion. We will not be able to find the history that had been before cyberspace. The original essence of art, the original concept of history have disappeared, all now is part of a real-time holistic data sphere inseparable from its models of perfection and simulation. The cyberspace compressed the time and space to a short circuit hyper-reality.

The cyberspace is the "meme" database for further construction/deconstruction of net audiovisual mutual memory sequences consumed by other cyber-flâneurs.

Google, YouTube and its partners become a giant hub, dominating cyber-culture, global networked economy, surfers' language and behavior. The Cyberspace is an extension of our foot, eye skin and nervous system positioned on torus-like topology. The real and the virtual are one…

Ephemeral8 aka avi rosen
http://www.youtube.com/user/ephemeral8

-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)
Sent: ב 25 ינואר 2010 19:56
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] AROUND SIMULATION and Time

Dear All,

It would be interesting to hear your idea's concerning simulation and time:

It seems that simulations and simulation technologies, in particular the ones that simulate the invisible, also work as catalysts that speed up processes. As our technologies are limited to what we can or can not see, how does simulation as 'virtual tool' integrate a time efficiency aspect?

There is also a preservation aspect:

As technologies come and go, (technological) art preservation, has become a real issue within cultural institutes. I was talking to a friend and she mentioned the process called Emulation, which helps preserve 'old' artworks made with 'old' technlogy. Where new software emulates old software. http://www.variablemedia.net/e/echoes/index.html

Or any other relations with Time?

Jennifer
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, remediation

I think my reply to David more or less explains what I understand things and
experiences to be. As for apples and eating, the apple, the eater and the
eating are an event, a set of contigencies. The individual components of
that set of relationships cannot be undone or separated, although aspects of
that contingency can appear in other sets of relationships with other
characteristics (eg: bananas and oranges, even exotic fruit).

Best

Simon

Simon Biggs

Research Professor
edinburgh college of art
s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk

Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
CIRCLE research group
www.eca.ac.uk/circle/

simon@littlepig.org.uk
www.littlepig.org.uk
AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk

From: Leo Cardoso <leocardoso@mail.utexas.edu>
Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:32:09 -0600
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, remediation

discussing mediation/simulation in terms of the relationship between the
receiver's body and the immersive environment is interesting and may lead to
phenomenological questions, in the sense that the observer is conscious of
his/her own immersion, and hence consciousness of the mediation itself;
simulation necessarily implies mediation.

a point in which the simulation/mediation coupling collapses is perhaps the
direct simulation of experience from our very cognitive apparatus (i'll
mention Vanilla Sky just to avoid the obvious matrix example...).
at that point, however, (a) the awareness of mediation disappear, (b)
simulation and reality become ineffective terms, and (c) the aesthetic
experience (and i'm equating artwork with mediation) also fades away.

immersive art is simply a mode of engaging the body in an aesthetic
experience, which is quite the opposite of concealing that experience as a
mediated one.

Simon writes:
"It is possible to argue that the thing being experienced and that
experiencing are part of the same thing; that existence is found in the
interaction between things".

i'm not sure if i understand what you mean (english is not my primary
language), perhaps you mean "thing *as* being experienced" or something like
that.
the thing being experienced = apple
experiencing the thing = me eating the apple, experiencing the apple's
taste, etc.

what do you mean by 'part of the same thing'?

what existence are you referring in 'that existence is found in the
interaction between things'? if you talking about me experiencing the apple,
then i certainly agree with you, as any other verb put between me and the
apple in a sentence will refer to the interaction between these two things
(me and the apple).

how are we defining 'mediation'? what mediates my experience eating the
apple?

best,

leoC

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 3:15 PM, fmarineo@libero.it
<fmarineo@libero.it>wrote:

> Simon writes:
> "It is possible to argue that the thing being experienced and that
> experiencing are part of the same thing; that existence is found in the
> interaction between things".
> I think this leads us to rethink the status of representation in accordance
> with the "scientific" idea that the observer and the observed are part of
> the same phenomenon. A very interesting perspective, and surely an
> antirelativistic one, is that offered by Karen Barad in her book "Meeting
> the Universe Halfway. Quantum physics and the entanglement of matter and
> meaning", whose key concepts can also be found in her previously publsihed
> short essay "Posthumanist Performativity: How Matter Comes to Matter"
> (Signs, vol. 28, n. 3, 2003, pp. 801-831). Here, she develops the notion of
> "agential realism" drawing on a critique of Bohr's physics, which I find
> very fruitful for those working in between the artistic and the scientific
> field (like me, on a theoretical level). Barad shifts from a
> representationalist perspective to a performativist one (and here is where
> feminist theory gives a great contribution), one which attributes
> performativity to matter, and at the same time propose!
> s an anti-representational form of realism.
> Here, "relations do not follows relata", in Barad's words, but mattering is
> itself a differentiating process (which also means that differences are not
> pre-given). Barad's theory is very complex and fascinating, and I do not
> want to enter into much detail here, but I firmly believe that her idea of
> agential realism allows to reconceive the intra-actions between humans
> (post-human in Barad's sense), non-humans, and the environments they live in
> so as to abandon any metaphysics of purity or essential truth ( as well as
> of immediacy), without nonetheless abandoning the possibility of
> objectivity.
>
> Jennifer, about "Avatar": personally, the level of hypermediacy it carries
> with it all the time made me have a filmic experience of total detachment.
> Every second, I was so totally aware of its excess of mediation, that I was
> never emotionally involved. Maybe, an alternance of hypermediacy and
> immediacy would have catched me a little bit more.
>
> Pier Luigi: incidentally, the van de Vall's article I was mentioning in my
> previous post talks about Cronberg's ExistenZ too...
>
> Best,
> Federica
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
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>
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> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
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--
Leo Cardoso
Graduate student
Butler School of Music
University of Texas at Austin
leocardoso@mail.utexas.edu
(512) 216-8205
http://leocardoso.org/
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, remediation

If what is an assertion concerning a relativistic argument can be absolute
then I am happy to be considered an absolutist. At the very least I am
clearly confused ;)

You reference Varela and the idea of the embodied mind. I would rather speak
of the expanded self or, perhaps more precisely, the distributed self.
Arguments about embodied minds, to some degree, are still weighed down with
an implicit dualism. The idea of the distributed self posits the self as a
construct or set of constructs that exist within, because of and with affect
upon, various networks (in short, relative agency). These networks are of
many kinds but the social is key to many, if not most, of them. The self
does not exist in this context as an identifiable thing but rather as an
emergent phenomena that appears to have some degree of coherence. Latour is
probably the thinker who has considered this model of self most carefully,
although Don Idhe has also written on this with a particularly interesting
take.

Whilst I enjoy much of Varela¹s writings I find his later work pretty
difficult (his early work with Maturana is brilliant). His Buddhist faith
immediately placed him in a position where he could not employ certain
frameworks, particularly those of a phenomenological and
post-phenomenological persuasion. Buddhism might be the most attractive of
religions, but it is still a religion. It requires you have faith (at the
very least, in yourself) and that is absolutist.

I am not assuming the independent existence of things beyond our experience
(I wouldn¹t use the word conceptualisation here as that once again risks a
dualistic interpretation) but identify experience as key. This is another
way of saying that what things might be is likely to be found in their
relations and interactions rather than in themselves.

Best

Simon

Simon Biggs

Research Professor
edinburgh college of art
s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk

Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments
CIRCLE research group
www.eca.ac.uk/circle/

simon@littlepig.org.uk
www.littlepig.org.uk
AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk

From: david mcconville <id@elumenati.com>
Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:24:57 -0500
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, remediation

Simon,

You make an interesting absolute assertion here. It seems that
asserting that we cannot directly experience "things" is not the same
as saying that we cannot have direct experience. "Things" are
representational constructs that arise from our after-the-fact
analysis. Related to this, Varela et al (in The Embodied Mind)
critique phenomenologists for trying to ³recapture the richness of
experience² through a ³discourse about that experience,² (p.19) while
many others - Buddhists in particular - have cited that scientific
materialism has no framework for first-person explorations of
consciousness.

Sakyong Mipham echoes Whitehead's Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness
(and centuries of Buddhist teachings) by pointing out that "we're
always trying to project a concrete world onto a fluid process,
mistaking our ever-changing experience for a self." Instead of
attempting to conceptualize after-the-fact, many non-conceptual
practices are focused on direct experience - not on attempting to
impossible task of directly experiencing "things" but on letting go of
this compulsion to conceptualize. Mipham continues "Like the elements,
this kind of wisdom doesn't need to be propped up. It is a direct
experience of reality, empty and ungraspable."

Are you assuming an independent existence of "things" beyond our
conceptualization of them? Alternately, if all phenomena are converted
into sense-able processes through our embodied sense perceptions,
can't it be said that they co-arise with our perception of them?
Wouldn't this make the after-the-fact attempts to represent the
experience the true mediation process?

---

david mcconville
director, noospheric research division
http://www.elumenati.com

Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number SC009201

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Simulation, remediation

*.*

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Leo Cardoso <leocardoso@mail.utexas.edu>wrote:

> discussing mediation/simulation in terms of the relationship between the
> receiver's body and the immersive environment is interesting and may lead
> to
> phenomenological questions, in the sense that the observer is conscious of
> his/her own immersion, and hence consciousness of the mediation itself;
> simulation necessarily implies mediation.
>
> a point in which the simulation/mediation coupling collapses is perhaps the
> direct simulation of experience from our very cognitive apparatus (i'll
> mention Vanilla Sky just to avoid the obvious matrix example...).
> at that point, however, (a) the awareness of mediation disappear, (b)
> simulation and reality become ineffective terms, and (c) the aesthetic
> experience (and i'm equating artwork with mediation) also fades away.
>
> immersive art is simply a mode of engaging the body in an aesthetic
> experience, which is quite the opposite of concealing that experience as a
> mediated one.
>
> Simon writes:
> "It is possible to argue that the thing being experienced and that
> experiencing are part of the same thing; that existence is found in the
> interaction between things".
>
> i'm not sure if i understand what you mean (english is not my primary
> language), perhaps you mean "thing *as* being experienced" or something
> like
> that.
> the thing being experienced = apple
> experiencing the thing = me eating the apple, experiencing the apple's
> taste, etc.
>
> what do you mean by 'part of the same thing'?
>
> what existence are you referring in 'that existence is found in the
> interaction between things'? if you talking about me experiencing the
> apple,
> then i certainly agree with you, as any other verb put between me and the
> apple in a sentence will refer to the interaction between these two things
> (me and the apple).
>
> how are we defining 'mediation'? what mediates my experience eating the
> apple?
>
> best,
>
> leoC
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 3:15 PM, fmarineo@libero.it <fmarineo@libero.it
> >wrote:
>
> > Simon writes:
> > "It is possible to argue that the thing being experienced and that
> > experiencing are part of the same thing; that existence is found in the
> > interaction between things".
> > I think this leads us to rethink the status of representation in
> accordance
> > with the "scientific" idea that the observer and the observed are part of
> > the same phenomenon. A very interesting perspective, and surely an
> > antirelativistic one, is that offered by Karen Barad in her book "Meeting
> > the Universe Halfway. Quantum physics and the entanglement of matter and
> > meaning", whose key concepts can also be found in her previously
> publsihed
> > short essay "Posthumanist Performativity: How Matter Comes to Matter"
> > (Signs, vol. 28, n. 3, 2003, pp. 801-831). Here, she develops the notion
> of
> > "agential realism" drawing on a critique of Bohr's physics, which I find
> > very fruitful for those working in between the artistic and the
> scientific
> > field (like me, on a theoretical level). Barad shifts from a
> > representationalist perspective to a performativist one (and here is
> where
> > feminist theory gives a great contribution), one which attributes
> > performativity to matter, and at the same time propose!
> > s an anti-representational form of realism.
> > Here, "relations do not follows relata", in Barad's words, but mattering
> is
> > itself a differentiating process (which also means that differences are
> not
> > pre-given). Barad's theory is very complex and fascinating, and I do not
> > want to enter into much detail here, but I firmly believe that her idea
> of
> > agential realism allows to reconceive the intra-actions between humans
> > (post-human in Barad's sense), non-humans, and the environments they live
> in
> > so as to abandon any metaphysics of purity or essential truth ( as well
> as
> > of immediacy), without nonetheless abandoning the possibility of
> > objectivity.
> >
> > Jennifer, about "Avatar": personally, the level of hypermediacy it
> carries
> > with it all the time made me have a filmic experience of total
> detachment.
> > Every second, I was so totally aware of its excess of mediation, that I
> was
> > never emotionally involved. Maybe, an alternance of hypermediacy and
> > immediacy would have catched me a little bit more.
> >
> > Pier Luigi: incidentally, the van de Vall's article I was mentioning in
> my
> > previous post talks about Cronberg's ExistenZ too...
> >
> > Best,
> > Federica
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> > In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
> and
> > password in the fields found further down the page.
> >
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> > your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the
> > unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >
> > HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> > Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Leo Cardoso
> Graduate student
> Butler School of Music
> University of Texas at Austin
> leocardoso@mail.utexas.edu
> (512) 216-8205
> http://leocardoso.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
>
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
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> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>

--
Lázár Krisztina Judit
Phone: +36 30 8 56 03 76
skype: krisztina.lazar