(A.life), then death is too..."
A.L uses the terms life and death somehow metaphorically - but without
entering the realm of representation. We should be clear that this is not
what we are discussing. As for the un-computable and chaitin - I'm not up to
the task, metaphorically or mathematically, that is beyond my capacity, but
let's say that all thought, all images, the recording of every
neurone/synapse, a sequential record, a 'string' throughout time until the
heat-death: treat all this as an integer - a number representing
everything...after heat death there is what for Artificial Death to
represent in its simulations?
Derek
On 23 January 2011 09:42, Annick Bureaud <bureaud@altern.org> wrote:
> Dear Pier Luigi, Dear All,
>
> This discussion is a bit difficult to follow for me as I don't have much
> time to read everything, so I hope that my remark will not be too trivial.
>
> For me there is a difference between simulating and representing.
>
> But one naive question : if life is simulatable (A.life), then death is
> too...
>
> Annick
>
>
> Pier Luigi Capucci wrote:
>
>> Dear Derek, beautiful idea that death can be something un-simulatable....
>> But, don't you think images like the following ones can represent it?
>>
>> http://laccarossa.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/2202la-morte-sceletro.jpg
>>
>> http://dimensionemorgana.ilcannocchiale.it/blogs/bloggerarchimg/distrattamentemorgana/morte.jpg
>>
>> http://www.settemuse.it/pittori_scultori_europei/bruegel/pieter_bruegel_the_elder_013_il_trionfo_della_morte_1562.jpg
>> http://www.anti-communist.net/katyn/katyn_wood_massacre.jpg
>> http://www.infopal.it/writable/img/morti%20di%20gaza.jpg
>> ...........
>> ...........
>>
>> Pier Luigi
>>
>> Il giorno 21/gen/2011, alle ore 21.13, derek hales ha scritto:
>>
>> to go back to the opening question - and with apologies, when Pier first
>>> posed the question of what was un-simulatable / unsimulable, before
>>> staring
>>> the discussion - I said something like "life"...I take it all back - it
>>> is
>>> death. death cannot be simulated, perhaps the final rasping breath can -
>>> but
>>> the completion of non - sense, the utter desolation of the senses, the
>>> unconditioned, a void: this surely cannot be simulated?
>>>
>>> derek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 20 January 2011 07:10, derek hales <hales.derek@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Yasmin,
>>>>
>>>> is the simulation of sense all we need for the real to become, in its
>>>> treatment as entirely rational, *the* simulation...
>>>>
>>>> Derek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 18 January 2011 18:03, Ennio Bertrand <enniobertrand@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> dear clarissa,
>>>>> about shent
>>>>> in 1996 I relized an installation to transmit perfumed photography by
>>>>> internet in 4 different places
>>>>> ennio bertrand
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 2:34 AM, Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida <
>>>>> almeida.clarissa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> And here, something about "computer-controlled olfactory displays" and
>>>>>> smell
>>>>>> simulation...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On "Proustian effects"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can experience odors that tap into emotionally charged memories.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> phenomenon has its roots in the olfactory system – some smells can
>>>>>>
>>>>> trigger
>>>>>
>>>>>> memories of events that take place many years earlier. A phenomenon of
>>>>>> Involuntary
>>>>>> memory. A very famous mention in literature of this kind of sensorial
>>>>>>
>>>>> event
>>>>>
>>>>>> in the Marcel Proust novel *In Search of Lost Time*, where the
>>>>>> narrator experiences
>>>>>> an awakening upon tasting a madeleine dipped in tea:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "She sent out for one of those short, plump little cakes called
>>>>>> petites
>>>>>> madeleines, which look as though they had been moulded in the fluted
>>>>>> scallop
>>>>>> of a pilgrim's shell. And soon, mechanically, weary after a dull day
>>>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>>> the prospect of a depressing morrow, I raised to my lips a spoonful of
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> tea in which I had soaked a morsel of the cake. No sooner had the warm
>>>>>> liquid, and the crumbs with it, touched my palate than a shudder ran
>>>>>> through
>>>>>> my whole body, and I stopped, intent upon the extraordinary changes
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> were taking place…at once the vicissitudes of life had become
>>>>>>
>>>>> indifferent
>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> me, its disasters innocuous, its brevity illusory […]" (Marcel
>>>>>> Proust, *Remembrance
>>>>>> of Things Past, Volume 1: Swann's Way*. London: Chatto and Windus,
>>>>>>
>>>>> 1922.)
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recognizing *odors associated with meaningful places*:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/amerjpsyc.123.3.0281
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MIT Neuroscientists Explain 'Proustian Effect' Of Small Details
>>>>>> Attached
>>>>>>
>>>>> To
>>>>>
>>>>>> Big Memories:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://chem.info/News/Feeds/2011/01/topics-plant-operations-mit-neuroscientists-explain-proustian-effect-of-sm/
>>>>>
>>>>>> Projection-Based Olfactory Display with Nose Tracking
>>>>>> ISBN: 0-7803-8415-6
>>>>>> Most attempts to realize an olfactory display have involved capturing
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> synthesizing the odor. This work focus on spatio-temporal control of
>>>>>>
>>>>> odor
>>>>>
>>>>>> rather than synthesizing odor itself:
>>>>>> http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/VR.2004.1310054
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://chem.info/News/Feeds/2011/01/topics-plant-operations-mit-neuroscientists-explain-proustian-effect-of-sm/
>>>>>
>>>>>> And here we can read about the *SubSmell System*:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea of adding the SubSmell logo to the movie for describing the
>>>>>>
>>>>> scent
>>>>>
>>>>>> of each event in the movie has been proposed to improve the current
>>>>>> way
>>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> seeing movies, which can perceive only pictures and sound. Using the
>>>>>> SubSmell, the audience can smell the movie. The audiences need a
>>>>>>
>>>>> SubSmell
>>>>>
>>>>>> application to read a SubSmell and an olfactory display in order to
>>>>>>
>>>>> release
>>>>>
>>>>>> scent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.springerlink.com/content/p642p43x04n61567/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Thesis on "*Symbolic Olfactory Display*" exploring the problems and
>>>>>> possibilities of computer-controlled scent output.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> by Joseph Nathaniel Kaye
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S.B. Brain & Cognitive Science,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 1999
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jofish/thesis/symbolic_olfactory_display.html<http://alumni.media.mit.edu/%7Ejofish/thesis/symbolic_olfactory_display.html>
>>>>> <
>>>>> http://alumni.media.mit.edu/%7Ejofish/thesis/symbolic_olfactory_display.html
>>>>> >
>>>>> <
>>>>>
>>>>> http://alumni.media.mit.edu/%7Ejofish/thesis/symbolic_olfactory_display.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clarissa Ribeiro
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2011/1/17 Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida <
>>>>>>
>>>>> almeida.clarissa@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> … "So what is un- un-simulatable? And why?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here, just an instantaneous free writing exercise around the
>>>>>>> questions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>> want to share:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *"A moist media pulp fiction (or an escape attempt from the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> simulatable)"*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A datacloud was fluctuating in a datasky. Radio waves were *flowing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> by*slowly and dancing and shaking the cloud waves-particles. For a
>>>>>>
>>>>> databeing
>>>>>
>>>>>> who was observing the system, the scale was macro; the time was
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> complex;
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sun was shining, as unusual. The cloud was so excited that was about
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> rain
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and give birth to a moist context that could be the beginning of a
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> reality in a system of realities. Escaping from this about to born
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> reality,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the moist nature of the rain was just a temporary sensorial illusion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> databeing who was vibrating as the radio waves *pervase* its
>>>>>>> structure
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> –
>>>>>
>>>>>> "
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Take it as it comes /Specialize in having fun*". Suddenly, in an
>>>>>>> unpredictable instant, here comes the rain. By maters of the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> observation,
>>>>>
>>>>>> the soft rain becomes a datapool where one can quantum jumping and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> meet a
>>>>>
>>>>>> myriad of multiple selves. Entangled delicate un-simulatable reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> comes the sun. It's all right!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clarissa Ribeiro
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2011/1/17 Pier Luigi Capucci <plc@noemalab.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Yasminers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in this second discussion about the simulation issues the topics
>>>>>>>> (the
>>>>>>>> un-simulatable and the simulation of the senses) are very different,
>>>>>>>> although related. In the remote and mediated communication some
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> senses
>>>>>
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> normally use and that are very important in our everyday's life -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>
>>>>>> smell
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and touch - simply do not pass, they are not effective, are useless.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the simulation hugely involves the sight and the hear, which are the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>
>>>>>> called "superior senses", all the other sensory information is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dropped
>>>>>
>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Asimple information about the chemical senses:
>>>>>>>> http://www.slideshare.net/lwolberg/chemical-senses-smell-and-taste
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many times we have heard about the need of restructuring and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> redefining
>>>>>
>>>>>> the communication, a critique about "balancing" and discussing the
>>>>>>>> communication's issues. Many important international events (like
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> concurrent Transmediale) seem devoted to the ethical issues of the
>>>>>>>> communication. But maybe the problem is at a more general level, on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that from a sensory viewpoint the remote and mediated communication
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> poorer than the direct one because drops out an important part of the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> way we
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "get in touch" with each other. Hence we must admit we accepted to
>>>>>>>> communicate more rapidly, over greater distance, in an increasingly
>>>>>>>> affordable and economic way, but in exchange for an impoverished
>>>>>>>> communication.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other side, in a world where the information is extensively
>>>>>>>> simulated by the mass media and the new media - a topic debated in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>
>>>>>> first
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> discussion last year in Yasmin - is there anything which can't enter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> realm of simulation, which can't be simulated, hence reduced - since
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> simulation is always a reduction of the phenomenon which is being
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> simulated?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what is un-simultable? And why?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What are the artist doing in this direction?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some more info later!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you and best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pier Luigi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Pier Luigi Capucci
>>>>>>>> e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
>>>>>>>> web: http://www.noemalab.org/plc/plc.html
>>>>>>>> skype: plcapucci
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>>>>> subscribe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> enter
>>>>>
>>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>
>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>>>>
>>>>> to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>>> enter
>>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *we-are-making-digital-art.com*
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>
>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>>> to.
>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
>>>>> and
>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>>> on the
>>>>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>
>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>
>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>
>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
>>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>
>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Pier Luigi Capucci
>> e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
>> web: http://www.noemalab.org/plc/plc.html
>> skype: plcapucci
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>
>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>
>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>
>>
> --
>
> ------------------------
> Annick Bureaud (abureaud@gmail.com)
> tel/fax : 33/(0)1 43 20 92 23
> mobile/cell : 33/(0)6 86 77 65 76
> Leonardo/Olats : http://www.olats.org
> -------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
>
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
