Good question, why not return to Plato? (to Jesus I don't know, since
a lot of people are returning to him weekly in diffrent churches). We
probably shoud do that, the aspect that speaks in favor of Baudrillard
is the media awareness thing, or media literacy as some of us call it,
which turns every single piece of information into different pieces of
representation, whether we are speaking of so called reality
representations (journalism; documentary; science reports...) or of
fictional representations. But Plato is still a very good choice.
Vítor
Citando Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>:
> Why return to Baudrillard's interpretation of simulation? Why not return to
> Plato? Why not return to Jesus? Or earlier notions of symbols and
> interpretations of the early homo sapiens sapiens and cave paintings, where
> the image represented an deeply physiological manifestation of how the image
> could alter perceptions of the past and present, and form an attempt to
> predestine the future?
>
> These all have historical import and have influenced how individuals and
> society feel and think about the world around us, while animating signs and
> interpreting visual associations and tokens of social patterns.
>
> The world has become so deeply and profoundly influenced by the obvious and
> the silent signs that we have, in fact and in part, become psychologically
> confused by what is true meaning and what is hyped, or if the hyped has
> become the truth. On this level, it seems that one large environmental spill
> is simulacra that is nondestructable and potentially nonaesthetic.
>
> But even if we cherish Baudrillard's interpretation of simulacra, rather
> than Philip K. Dick's, Baudrillard contends that simulation, his suggested
> fourth stage it is no more than a reflection. Is this postmodern view
> correct? Yes, probably if it is sequestered to the world of postmodernist
> perspectives. Yes, it has great value framed as such.
>
> Outside this philosophical framing is a different understanding of
> simulation. One that is more integrated with the "The Matrix", and not "The
> Truman Show" (which is merely an intended, outright falsifying of the real
> is developing a pretense). In an interview, Baudrillard interprets the
> significance of the "The Matrix"
> http://web.archive.org/web/20080113012028/http://www.empyree.org/divers/Matr
> ix-Baudrillard_english.html as relative to his vision of simulacra outside
> the hypermodern meaning which ties more neatly into the computational mode
> or reality.
>
> All my best,
> Natasha
>
>
> Natasha Vita-More
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
> [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Vítor
> Reia-Baptista
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 5:07 AM
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - SimulatedSenses and
> the Un-Simulatable
>
> Hi.
> I also have some problems following this discussion, since it seems to me
> (as Roger says) that there is some confusion between simulation and
> representation. There are many texts written about this but Baudrillard's
> Simulacres et simulation can be a good start for those that feel that need
> of clarification.
> Vítor
>
> Citando roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>:
>
>> annick
>>
>> I agree with you that in order for this discussion not to be
>> hopelessly confused and generalising we need to distinguich between
> "simulating"
>> which needs be seen in the context of digital simulation, and
>> representation (such as the Brughel paintings and the photos that pier
>> luigi points to)
>>
>> here is the wikipaedia statement on the meaning of the word simulation
>> in the context of computer and systems sciences:
>>
>> ""Historically, simulations used in different fields developed largely
>> independently, but 20th century studies of Systems theory and
>> Cybernetics combined with spreading use of computers across all those
>> fields have led to some unification and a more systematic view of the
>> concept.
>>
>> Physical simulation refers to simulation in which physical objects are
>> substituted for the real thing (some circles[3] use the term for
>> computer simulations modelling selected laws of physics, but this
>> article doesn't). These physical objects are often chosen because they
>> are smaller or cheaper than the actual object or system.
>>
>> Interactive simulation is a special kind of physical simulation, often
>> referred to as a human in the loop simulation, in which physical
>> simulations include human operators, such as in a flight simulator or
>> a driving simulator.
>>
>> Human in the loop simulations can include a computer simulation as a
>> so-called synthetic environment.[4]""
>>
>> pier luigi and jennifer when they talk about "simulating the senses"
>> i think are within this definition of "simulation" and the general
>> dicussion one could have about painting and music and representation
>> in the arts
>>
>> so for me a picture that happens to be developed using computer
>> graphics is not a "simulation" in this sense but an alife program that
>> generates evolving life like systems ( and then you can photograph and
>> produce a still graphic)= the work of karl simms etc
>>
>> as mentioned in the definition above, often the aspect of
>> interactivity is key to creating an digitally generated experience that
> "simulates'
>> a naturally
>> occuring one
>>
>> so i agree= for the discussion of simulation here not to be over
>> general we need to distinguish clearly between simulation and
>> representation
>>
>> roger
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Annick Bureaud <bureaud@altern.org>
> wrote:
>>> Dear Pier Luigi, Dear All,
>>>
>>> This discussion is a bit difficult to follow for me as I don't have
>>> much time to read everything, so I hope that my remark will not be too
> trivial.
>>>
>>> For me there is a difference between simulating and representing.
>>>
>>> But one naive question : if life is simulatable (A.life), then death
>>> is too...
>>>
>>> Annick
>>>
>>> Pier Luigi Capucci wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Derek, beautiful idea that death can be something
> un-simulatable....
>>>> But, don't you think images like the following ones can represent it?
>>>>
>>>> http://laccarossa.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/2202la-morte-sceletro.
>>>> jpg
>>>>
>>>> http://dimensionemorgana.ilcannocchiale.it/blogs/bloggerarchimg/dist
>>>> rattamentemorgana/morte.jpg
>>>>
>>>> http://www.settemuse.it/pittori_scultori_europei/bruegel/pieter_brue
>>>> gel_the_elder_013_il_trionfo_della_morte_1562.jpg
>>>> http://www.anti-communist.net/katyn/katyn_wood_massacre.jpg
>>>> http://www.infopal.it/writable/img/morti%20di%20gaza.jpg
>>>> ...........
>>>> ...........
>>>>
>>>> Pier Luigi
>>>>
>>>> Il giorno 21/gen/2011, alle ore 21.13, derek hales ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>>> to go back to the opening question - and with apologies, when Pier
>>>>> first posed the question of what was un-simulatable / unsimulable,
>>>>> before staring the discussion - I said something like "life"...I
>>>>> take it all back - it is death. death cannot be simulated, perhaps
>>>>> the final rasping breath can - but the completion of non - sense,
>>>>> the utter desolation of the senses, the unconditioned, a void: this
>>>>> surely cannot be simulated?
>>>>>
>>>>> derek
>>>>>
>>>>>
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