within your definition of simulation. I did point this out in my discussant
post. I brought up the fact that there are different interpretations on the
concept of simulation. The "imitation" and the "copying" of matter in
developing real expressions of matter that would duplicate true/real
experience.
Simulation in the 21st century is more concerned with the latter, perhaps;
but I will defer to the former if that is what Pier Luigi and Jennifer
determine is the crux of this discussion.
All my best,
Natasha
Natasha Vita-More
-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
[mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of roger
malina
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:36 AM
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses
and the Un-Simulatable
annick
I agree with you that in order for this discussion not to be hopelessly
confused and generalising we need to distinguich between "simulating"
which needs be seen in the context of digital simulation, and representation
(such as the Brughel paintings and the photos that pier luigi points to)
here is the wikipaedia statement on the meaning of the word simulation in
the context of computer and systems sciences:
""Historically, simulations used in different fields developed largely
independently, but 20th century studies of Systems theory and Cybernetics
combined with spreading use of computers across all those fields have led to
some unification and a more systematic view of the concept.
Physical simulation refers to simulation in which physical objects are
substituted for the real thing (some circles[3] use the term for computer
simulations modelling selected laws of physics, but this article doesn't).
These physical objects are often chosen because they are smaller or cheaper
than the actual object or system.
Interactive simulation is a special kind of physical simulation, often
referred to as a human in the loop simulation, in which physical simulations
include human operators, such as in a flight simulator or a driving
simulator.
Human in the loop simulations can include a computer simulation as a
so-called synthetic environment.[4]""
pier luigi and jennifer when they talk about "simulating the senses"
i think are within this definition of "simulation" and the general dicussion
one could have about painting and music and representation in the arts
so for me a picture that happens to be developed using computer graphics is
not a "simulation" in this sense but an alife program that generates
evolving life like systems ( and then you can photograph and produce a still
graphic)= the work of karl simms etc
as mentioned in the definition above, often the aspect of interactivity is
key to creating an digitally generated experience that "simulates'
a naturally
occuring one
so i agree= for the discussion of simulation here not to be over general we
need to distinguish clearly between simulation and representation
roger
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Annick Bureaud <bureaud@altern.org> wrote:
> Dear Pier Luigi, Dear All,
>
> This discussion is a bit difficult to follow for me as I don't have
> much time to read everything, so I hope that my remark will not be too
trivial.
>
> For me there is a difference between simulating and representing.
>
> But one naive question : if life is simulatable (A.life), then death
> is too...
>
> Annick
>
> Pier Luigi Capucci wrote:
>>
>> Dear Derek, beautiful idea that death can be something un-simulatable....
>> But, don't you think images like the following ones can represent it?
>>
>> http://laccarossa.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/2202la-morte-sceletro.j
>> pg
>>
>> http://dimensionemorgana.ilcannocchiale.it/blogs/bloggerarchimg/distr
>> attamentemorgana/morte.jpg
>>
>> http://www.settemuse.it/pittori_scultori_europei/bruegel/pieter_brueg
>> el_the_elder_013_il_trionfo_della_morte_1562.jpg
>> http://www.anti-communist.net/katyn/katyn_wood_massacre.jpg
>> http://www.infopal.it/writable/img/morti%20di%20gaza.jpg
>> ...........
>> ...........
>>
>> Pier Luigi
>>
>> Il giorno 21/gen/2011, alle ore 21.13, derek hales ha scritto:
>>
>>> to go back to the opening question - and with apologies, when Pier
>>> first posed the question of what was un-simulatable / unsimulable,
>>> before staring the discussion - I said something like "life"...I
>>> take it all back - it is death. death cannot be simulated, perhaps
>>> the final rasping breath can - but the completion of non - sense,
>>> the utter desolation of the senses, the unconditioned, a void: this
>>> surely cannot be simulated?
>>>
>>> derek
>>>
>>>
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