When we talk about simulation, are we talking about a movie or a computer graphics sort of interactive? In the latter, the subjective aspect of it would be considered a part of the simulation as it would reconfigure some of its parameters to the "experiencer" (sorry, I know it is not a word, but don't want to say "user"). Wouldn't that incorporate subjectivity and bypass the non-computable?
I guess my confusion arises from the intention on creating simulations. Do we understand them as self contained existence -like conceptual art, a finite statement, very much like a painting in terms of function-, or an extension of human experience that incorporates our present fleeting moment?
Does this make sense at all people?
thanks,
julieta
--- On Sat, 1/22/11, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> From: roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 5:35 AM
> Pier Luigi , Jennifer and yasminers
>
> The Simulation II discussion so far has been quite centered
> on
> the issue that perception and experience involve the
> integration
> of senses
>
> i would like to put the topic of UNCOMPUTABLE back into
> this mix
> with this quote from Chaitin about "irreducibility'
>
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~chaitin/ai.html
>
> There are two kinds of algorithmic irreducibility: time
> irreducibility
> as in Wolfram [1], and information irreducibility as in
> Chaitin [2,3]
> and Calude [4]. In the first case, a physical system for
> which there
> are no computational shortcuts, for which the quickest way
> to see what
> the system does is just to run it. In the second case, a
> string of
> bits for which there is no theory more compact than being
> given the
> string of bits directly as is. In other words, there is no
> program for
> calculating the string of bits that is substantially
> smaller than the
> string of bits itself.
>
> In other words there are some processes in the universe
> where there is no
> shorter description than the process itself= ie even
> theoretically the process
> is uncomputable ( tough luck for computer scientists)
>
> We need some cognitive scientists in this discussion, but i
> would think
> that 'subjective experience' is uncomputable ie you could
> never develop
> a computer simulation that correctly simulates the
> subjective experience
> of someone else.
>
> related to this is Varela's concept of "enaction"
>
> http://liris.cnrs.fr/enaction/index-en.html
>
> The term « enaction » was proposed by Francisco Varela in
> order to
> designate a new paradigm in cognitive science, based not on
> the
> metaphor of the computer as in classical cognitivism, but
> instead on
> the metaphor of living organisms.
>
> I would like to make the assertion that relying on digital
> simulations
> is creating
> a situation where we focus primarily on processes that are
> theoretically
> simulatable or computable=
> whereas there are many other processes that are just not
> simulatable and there is a danger that we are developing
> huge blind spots
> (similarly there are parts of the universe that are
> theoretically unobservable
> eg the interior of a black hole, or the universe further
> away than
> light could travel since the birth of the universe)
>
> the work of artists , with its emphasis on triggering
> subjective
> experience.and exploitation of phenomena that may be
> unsimulatable may
> open up interesting
> areas of research that computer scientists are not focused
> on
>
> are there any examples ?
>
> roger malina
>
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