Hello for all from Tunisia!!Sorry for my absence in your very interessant discussion!I wanted to notice that the feeling of freedom cannot be simulated!:)Tunisia is free now from censuring, from dictator!!but not from dictature until now!!We live now a very historical change, and i hope that we can really feel the freedom!!!Thanks a lotWafa
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> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 12:31:05 +0100
> From: raphaelcuir@free.fr
> To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Please unsuscribe, thanks
>
>
>
>
> On 27/01/11 09:26, "[NAME]" <[ADDRESS]> wro:
>
> > Send Yasmin_discussions mailing list submissions to
> > yasmin_discsions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > or, via eil, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject li so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Yasmin_discussiondigest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Around Simulation II -imulating Empathy and Subjective
> > Experience (Avi Rosen)
> > 2. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathyand Subjective
> > Experience (Natasha Vita-More)
> > 3. Re: Around Simulation II - SimulatedSenses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (V?tor Reia-Baptista)
> > 4. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (xDxD.vs.xDxD)
> > 5. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (xDxD.vs.xDxD)
> > 6. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathy and Subjective
> > Experience (xDxD.vs.xDxD)
> > 7. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (Avi Rosen)
> > 8. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (Luigi Pagliarini)
> > 9. Re: Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 102, Issue 1 (Ziva Ljubec)
> > 10. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathy and Subjective
> > Experience (Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida)
> > 11. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida)
> > 12. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulating Emathyand Subjective
> > Experience (Joshua Madara)
> > 13. Some other contributes to the Discussions Around Simulation
> > II (V?tor Reia-Baptista)
> > 14. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (Luigi Pagliarini)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:38:56 +0200
> > From: "Avi Rosen" <avi@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathy and Subjective Experience
> > To: "'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS'" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <01f401cbbbb2$e718dc10$b54a9430$@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > The Artifact turned to be Responsive. the passive Marcel Duchamp's
> > readymade "La Fontaine" evolved to La iFontaine, -
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc6xjKQ0mkI
> > an interactive ready made with awareness and empathy to users and other
> > linked objects. Symbiosis of Artifact and Art consumer in cybernetic
> > holistic rhizome.
> > The surfer (art consumer) implementing digital gadgets is witnessing Pierre
> > Teilhard de Chardin's "noosphere", the "sphere of human thought" as it
> > grows towards a greater integration and unification, culminating in the
> > 'Omega Point'- the maximum level of complexity and consciousness to which
> > the universe seems to be evolving.
> > Avi.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Jennifer
> > Kanary Nikolov(a)
> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:44 PM
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathy
> > and Subjective Experience
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > In the meantime, I apologise if my own posts have actually contributed to
> > the rise to confusion :) Here is a post about the simulation of subjective
> > experience. Its in addition to my previous posts.
> >
> > Like I stated before, I'm interested in the Simulation of Empathy, well
> > known in humans, but considered impossible in computers (for AI purposes).
> > Empathy being the mental simulation of the experience of the other. When we
> > know how our own empathy systems work, and what role our own senses play in
> > this, we might learn more about how this could be evoked in digital systems,
> > AI and Robotics. This is strongly related to the theory of mirror neurons
> > (it is also where we left off at the last discussion with Derrick De
> > Kerckhoves contribution). I am interested in how artists knowledge about how
> > to evoke subjective experiences in humans could contribute to our
> > understanding as to how to evoke such experiences in AI systems and
> > robotics. I'm interested in the role art experiences play in evoking
> > empathy, how it jiggles our neurons and is there a form of programmability
> > to this?
> >
> >
> > For one to experience empathy, to have a sense as to what the other is
> > feeling, one must have an idea or awareness that there is an other and one
> > must have an inner archive of subjective experiences and believe that the
> > other feels. I use the word subjective experience to separate the subjective
> > aspect of a sensation, a signal of the sense organ, and its emotional
> > affect. I experience a signal, I experience the signal as pain, I experience
> > fear. A digital system can sense the signal, but as far as we know, does not
> > have a sensation about this signal, not does it compare it to our signals.
> >
> > Some believe that it is impossible for AI to feel, subjective experience is
> > ambiguous and ambiguity causes error in a computers calculations. Some
> > believe that subjective experience comes from a heart and soul, and that
> > computers do not have a soul and thus can never experience subjectivity. As
> > an artist interested in scientific speculations I wonder how to change our
> > perspective in this thinking. This changes dramatically when scientific
> > speculations rise like The Universe is a Quantum Computer. In such a world
> > Simulation is Life. We are Avatars creating Avatars. We are Worlds creating
> > Worlds. The Simulated Simulate in an ongoing cycle of many layers. It gives
> > a whole new meaning to concepts of God as a Creator, God residing in All of
> > us, God made man in his own image. It is a very cybernetic approach, that
> > everything is computed.
> >
> > For me Simulation is Computation, be it by my brain, by a digital or
> > analogue or quantum computer. I'm interested in how technology and art are
> > used as a tools of empathy. I am interested in how subjective experience is
> > generated by all technologies. I'm interested in how qbits might solve the
> > issue of ambiguation causing error in computations of classical computers.
> >
> > Our senses play a big role in how we empathise. We sense muscles tensions
> > in the faces of others, we learn to 'read' such faces and make conclusions
> > about how the other is feeling, we compare it to how we feel when our
> > muscles are like that. In our current society we do not take several of our
> > senses seriously. We need to focus on how our all our senses can be
> > simulated with digital computers and how the data, the incoming signals of
> > sensors interfere and affect interpretation.
> >
> >
> > How our senses dance a dance of signals that triggers our neurons. If we
> > know how it is evoked in brains with the use of technology, we will learn
> > more about how to evoke it in computers. In particular from the view that we
> > are all jiggling atoms ;) How to make my Avatar/Robot feel? How to put the
> > Gaia in the world of my Avatar/Robot?
> >
> >
> > Jennifer
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
> > the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> > password in the fields found further down the page.
> >
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your
> > e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> > unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >
> > HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> > Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:20:51 -0600
> > From: "Natasha Vita-More" <natasha@natasha.cc>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathyand Subjective Experience
> > To: "'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS'" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <AA0B9420EA75492B9DE739305F6AAF4E@DFC68LF1>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Hi Jennifer,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> >> In the meantime, I apologies if my own posts have actually contributed to
> > the rise to
> >> confusion :) Here is a post about the simulation of subjective experience.
> > Its in
> >> addition to my previous posts.
> >
> > You are not confusing things Jennifer. I think it is how we want to talk
> > about simulation and your interest appears to be of simulation as having
> > potential in computational systems, which is timely, although I'm not a
> > religious person so I don't see it pertainint to God, but I do see it as
> > pertaining to we are all part of an evolving cybernetics.
> >
> >> Like I stated before, I'm interested in the Simulation of Empathy, well
> > known in humans,
> >> but considered impossible in computers (for AI purposes). Empathy being the
> > mental
> >> simulation of the experience of the other.
> >
> > Empathy may be the most needed and also the most difficult experiential
> > behavior to obtain. To have empathy an agent needs to understand the
> > thoughts, feelings and state of another agent/person. To have empathy then,
> > the agent would also have to have "personhood." So, what is personhood if
> > it is not to be alive, self-awareness, and able to make decisions. How can
> > something make decisions if it is not alive and self-aware? Certainly AI
> > makes decisions and interacts with its environment, but not alive. So the
> > issue is what makes AI alive?
> >
> >> Some believe that it is impossible for AI to feel, subjective experience is
> > ambiguous and
> >> ambiguity causes error in a computers calculations. Some believe that
> > subjective experience
> >> comes from a heart and soul, and that computers do not have a soul and thus
> > can never
> >> experience subjectivity.
> >
> > AI is narrow. "Strong AI" is where we would have to begin, and which takes
> > us to the baby steps of A[G]I (i.e., artificial general intelligence,
> > hereinafter "AGI"), which is where AI was originally headed before its
> > winter (inability to achieve its original directive in producing human level
> > intelligence). AGI offers the potential for being self-aware and able to
> > make decisions based on "experience". Through its experience in its
> > learning, it could obtain personhood at the juncture where the idea of life
> > and death becomes redefined based on semi and non-biological or synthetic
> > systems which develop self-awareness and may want rights, similar to the
> > rights of humans.
> >
> > With all this said, the issue of empathy could be obtainable by AGIs. But I
> > have to return to my original post on this one, if I may. A brain that is
> > transferable or copied onto a computational system, would also transfer or
> > copy its mind (in the material sense) and that mind would contain the
> > feelings, emotions, and sensorial memory of the biological person). If the
> > AGI could relate to this, it would also become familiar and experience the
> > feelings, emotions and sensory memory of the human. So the merging of
> > humans and technology becomes even more blurred and the AGI would learn
> > empathy through its own experiential behavior.
> >
> > All my best,
> > Natasha
> >
> > Natasha Vita-More
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 16:47:32 +0000
> > From: V?tor Reia-Baptista <vreia@ualg.pt>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II -
> > SimulatedSenses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>,
> > Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>
> > Cc: 'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS' <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <20110124164732.26134anq4rnqmiio@wmail.ualg.pt>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
> > format="flowed"
> >
> > Hi Natasha.
> > Good question, why not return to Plato? (to Jesus I don't know, since
> > a lot of people are returning to him weekly in diffrent churches). We
> > probably shoud do that, the aspect that speaks in favor of Baudrillard
> > is the media awareness thing, or media literacy as some of us call it,
> > which turns every single piece of information into different pieces of
> > representation, whether we are speaking of so called reality
> > representations (journalism; documentary; science reports...) or of
> > fictional representations. But Plato is still a very good choice.
> > V?tor
> >
> > Citando Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>:
> >
> >> Why return to Baudrillard's interpretation of simulation? Why not return to
> >> Plato? Why not return to Jesus? Or earlier notions of symbols and
> >> interpretations of the early homo sapiens sapiens and cave paintings, where
> >> the image represented an deeply physiological manifestation of how the image
> >> could alter perceptions of the past and present, and form an attempt to
> >> predestine the future?
> >>
> >> These all have historical import and have influenced how individuals and
> >> society feel and think about the world around us, while animating signs and
> >> interpreting visual associations and tokens of social patterns.
> >>
> >> The world has become so deeply and profoundly influenced by the obvious and
> >> the silent signs that we have, in fact and in part, become psychologically
> >> confused by what is true meaning and what is hyped, or if the hyped has
> >> become the truth. On this level, it seems that one large environmental spill
> >> is simulacra that is nondestructable and potentially nonaesthetic.
> >>
> >> But even if we cherish Baudrillard's interpretation of simulacra, rather
> >> than Philip K. Dick's, Baudrillard contends that simulation, his suggested
> >> fourth stage it is no more than a reflection. Is this postmodern view
> >> correct? Yes, probably if it is sequestered to the world of postmodernist
> >> perspectives. Yes, it has great value framed as such.
> >>
> >> Outside this philosophical framing is a different understanding of
> >> simulation. One that is more integrated with the "The Matrix", and not "The
> >> Truman Show" (which is merely an intended, outright falsifying of the real
> >> is developing a pretense). In an interview, Baudrillard interprets the
> >> significance of the "The Matrix"
> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20080113012028/http://www.empyree.org/divers/Matr
> >> ix-Baudrillard_english.html as relative to his vision of simulacra outside
> >> the hypermodern meaning which ties more neatly into the computational mode
> >> or reality.
> >>
> >> All my best,
> >> Natasha
> >>
> >>
> >> Natasha Vita-More
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of V?tor
> >> Reia-Baptista
> >> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 5:07 AM
> >> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> >> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - SimulatedSenses and
> >> the Un-Simulatable
> >>
> >> Hi.
> >> I also have some problems following this discussion, since it seems to me
> >> (as Roger says) that there is some confusion between simulation and
> >> representation. There are many texts written about this but Baudrillard's
> >> Simulacres et simulation can be a good start for those that feel that need
> >> of clarification.
> >> V?tor
> >>
> >> Citando roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>:
> >>
> >>> annick
> >>>
> >>> I agree with you that in order for this discussion not to be
> >>> hopelessly confused and generalising we need to distinguich between
> >> "simulating"
> >>> which needs be seen in the context of digital simulation, and
> >>> representation (such as the Brughel paintings and the photos that pier
> >>> luigi points to)
> >>>
> >>> here is the wikipaedia statement on the meaning of the word simulation
> >>> in the context of computer and systems sciences:
> >>>
> >>> ""Historically, simulations used in different fields developed largely
> >>> independently, but 20th century studies of Systems theory and
> >>> Cybernetics combined with spreading use of computers across all those
> >>> fields have led to some unification and a more systematic view of the
> >>> concept.
> >>>
> >>> Physical simulation refers to simulation in which physical objects are
> >>> substituted for the real thing (some circles[3] use the term for
> >>> computer simulations modelling selected laws of physics, but this
> >>> article doesn't). These physical objects are often chosen because they
> >>> are smaller or cheaper than the actual object or system.
> >>>
> >>> Interactive simulation is a special kind of physical simulation, often
> >>> referred to as a human in the loop simulation, in which physical
> >>> simulations include human operators, such as in a flight simulator or
> >>> a driving simulator.
> >>>
> >>> Human in the loop simulations can include a computer simulation as a
> >>> so-called synthetic environment.[4]""
> >>>
> >>> pier luigi and jennifer when they talk about "simulating the senses"
> >>> i think are within this definition of "simulation" and the general
> >>> dicussion one could have about painting and music and representation
> >>> in the arts
> >>>
> >>> so for me a picture that happens to be developed using computer
> >>> graphics is not a "simulation" in this sense but an alife program that
> >>> generates evolving life like systems ( and then you can photograph and
> >>> produce a still graphic)= the work of karl simms etc
> >>>
> >>> as mentioned in the definition above, often the aspect of
> >>> interactivity is key to creating an digitally generated experience that
> >> "simulates'
> >>> a naturally
> >>> occuring one
> >>>
> >>> so i agree= for the discussion of simulation here not to be over
> >>> general we need to distinguish clearly between simulation and
> >>> representation
> >>>
> >>> roger
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Annick Bureaud <bureaud@altern.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>>> Dear Pier Luigi, Dear All,
> >>>>
> >>>> This discussion is a bit difficult to follow for me as I don't have
> >>>> much time to read everything, so I hope that my remark will not be too
> >> trivial.
> >>>>
> >>>> For me there is a difference between simulating and representing.
> >>>>
> >>>> But one naive question : if life is simulatable (A.life), then death
> >>>> is too...
> >>>>
> >>>> Annick
> >>>>
> >>>> Pier Luigi Capucci wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear Derek, beautiful idea that death can be something
> >> un-simulatable....
> >>>>> But, don't you think images like the following ones can represent it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://laccarossa.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/2202la-morte-sceletro.
> >>>>> jpg
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://dimensionemorgana.ilcannocchiale.it/blogs/bloggerarchimg/dist
> >>>>> rattamentemorgana/morte.jpg
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.settemuse.it/pittori_scultori_europei/bruegel/pieter_brue
> >>>>> gel_the_elder_013_il_trionfo_della_morte_1562.jpg
> >>>>> http://www.anti-communist.net/katyn/katyn_wood_massacre.jpg
> >>>>> http://www.infopal.it/writable/img/morti%20di%20gaza.jpg
> >>>>> ...........
> >>>>> ...........
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pier Luigi
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Il giorno 21/gen/2011, alle ore 21.13, derek hales ha scritto:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> to go back to the opening question - and with apologies, when Pier
> >>>>>> first posed the question of what was un-simulatable / unsimulable,
> >>>>>> before staring the discussion - I said something like "life"...I
> >>>>>> take it all back - it is death. death cannot be simulated, perhaps
> >>>>>> the final rasping breath can - but the completion of non - sense,
> >>>>>> the utter desolation of the senses, the unconditioned, a void: this
> >>>>>> surely cannot be simulated?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> derek
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>>
> >>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
> >>> to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
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> >>>
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> >>> page").
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> >>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>
> >> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>
> >> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
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> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>
> >> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>
> >> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> >> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter
> >> e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 10:55:12 +0100
> > From: "xDxD.vs.xDxD" <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=aHC7LFy7awrV+3ZBMFOz0rZZCzwkFyAmtzquC@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > hello all!
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)
> > <jenniferkanary@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What about death in literature, death in imagination, is that a form of
> >> simulation? If imagination is a form of simulation, then the limits of the
> >> un-simulatable might be found there?
> >
> > and maybe death and after death can be imaginatively simulated, after
> > all, like in
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2008/01/15/dead-on-second-life/
> >
> > in which 3 artificial intelligences, fed with the original texts that
> > Karl Marx, Franz Kafka and Coco Chanel left us, have been embodied in
> > autonomous avatars on Second Life (walking around, choosing who/what
> > to interact with, etc completely on their own, according to
> > behavioural algorithms built around the characters' personality).
> >
> > This is a kind of simulation that interested me a lot, as it sits
> > across the formal dimensions of systems theory and the poetical
> > re-enactment of processes (or people! :) ): while there is a formal,
> > scientific based approach in the design and definition of the systems
> > defining behaviour and expression of the re-embodied-avatars, there
> > also is the suggestion of how people never, actually, die, continuing
> > their lives in the memories, imaginaries, sensations of the people who
> > knew them (and this is actually a really complex and totally
> > insightful simulation of a human being).
> >
> > In more than one way they are completely alive, not dead, living in a
> > continuous multi-authored simulation based on the "material" (texts,
> > experiences, relationships...) that they left behind, and on a
> > multitude of interpretations.
> >
> > ciao!
> > salvatore
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:10:16 +0100
> > From: "xDxD.vs.xDxD" <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTik7ZJuT7=gYzyi-LHUPFtVPkc5Kkgnq9_eerec_@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > hello roger and all,
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 12:35 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >> I would like to make the assertion that relying on digital simulations
> >> is creating
> >> a situation where we focus primarily on processes that are theoretically
> >> simulatable or computable=
> >> ?whereas there are many other processes that are just not
> >> simulatable and there is a danger that we are developing huge blind spots
> >> (similarly there are parts of the universe that are theoretically
> >> unobservable
> >> eg the interior of a black hole, or the universe further away than
> >> light could travel since the birth of the universe)
> >>
> >> the work of artists , with its emphasis on triggering subjective
> >> experience.and exploitation of phenomena that may be unsimulatable may
> >> open up interesting
> >> areas of research that computer scientists are not focused on
> >>
> >> are there any examples ?
> >
> >
> > we need cognitive scientists or/and some more anthropologists! :)
> >
> > as this is a problem that is truly similar to the international
> > discussion on "how do we go beyond ethnographical writing?"
> >
> > or: anthropological reports are an incomplete simulation. They
> > represent the point of view of the anthropologist and, in that, they
> > are, allow me to make it simple, novels. With that i do not mean that
> > they "are not good", i just mean that they are "incomplete", as we
> > know since the works of Mead and Bateson that "completeness" is a
> > concept that is somewhat awkward to define, and probabily the key to
> > describing it is to let it describe itself, by not trying to define it
> > and by finding ways in which the multiplicity of voices and
> > perceptions, and the network of relations, and their evolution in time
> > and space can express themselves. And also getting ready to accept
> > that a "system" (self-)described in this way is not coherent, static,
> > or objective. As roger said: there is not shortcut.
> >
> > yet again the most interesting parts (for me, obviously :) )of the
> > scientific research in this field are those that are creating a
> > short-circuit between "the map and the territory", by using the
> > territory (and its inhabitants, and cultures, and relations, and
> > expressions...) as the map itself through technologies that allow both
> > reading, writing and interpreting the world in its "entirety" (at
> > least theoretically, as it would require *everything/everyone* to be
> > technologically connected). In this perspective: the simulation of the
> > system is the system itself and, thus, can become simulatable.
> >
> > ciao!
> > s
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:04:50 +0100
> > From: "xDxD.vs.xDxD" <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathy and Subjective Experience
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=1iEV=yHetKZJiWdcj6nBaxg6EmUU=xS0E7U5r@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > hello jennifer and everyone!
> >
> >> How our senses dance a dance of signals that triggers our neurons. If we know
> >> how it is evoked in brains with the use of technology, we will learn more
> >> about
> >> how to evoke it in computers. In particular from the view that we are all
> >> jiggling atoms ;) How to make my Avatar/Robot feel? How to put the Gaia in
> >> the
> >> world of my Avatar/Robot?
> >
> > here come some suggestions from my own practice in arts+science. hope
> > you find them interesting for your research.
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2006/12/21/talkers-performance/
> > in the Talkers performance, the body of a dancer is connected to a
> > stimulation system that enacts a grammar made of electrical
> > stlimulation signals that are conveyed to the body of the dancer to
> > "write" on it the expressions of the audience, as sensed through a
> > series of online and live mechanisms and interfaces.
> > These mechanisms are the controls (parameters) defining the life of a
> > digital life form that expresses itself through generative language
> > and emotional expressions whose algorithms work through the realtime
> > contents of social networks. The body of the dancer becomes a
> > "display" for the simulation, re-mediating the body with the
> > digital-emotions and generative-linguistic-expressions of the digital
> > being.
> >
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/OneAvatar/
> > OneAvatar simulates the senses of an avatar on Second Life on a
> > physical human-body.
> > Created as a game in the virtual world of Second Life (and then on a
> > series of additional platforms), OneAvatar is a suit that connects the
> > body of the human to the digital-body of an avatar, allowing the human
> > to "feel" the digital-perceptions of the avatar through a series of
> > electrical and haptic stimuli.
> > OneAvatar has since become an open source platform that can be used to
> > build simulations that involve digital-life-forms and mapping them
> > onto a human body.
> > The human body becomes the medium for a simulation for researching
> > digital emotions and perceptions, as well as the cybernetic systems
> > built by interconnecting human body to digital body.
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2008/01/15/dead-on-second-life/
> > i already mentioned Dead on Second Life in the other message, and i
> > will put it here only for the sake of completeness: famous dead human
> > beings are simulated in virtual worlds through autonomous avatars led
> > by artificial intelligence and behavioural algorithms. A scientific
> > simulation and an artistic metaphor on the continuous simulation of
> > people constantly taking place in our cognitive processes through
> > their words, images, relationships.
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2009/12/05/conference-biofeedback/
> > Conference Biofeedback creates in real time a simple model of the
> > emotional state of the audience of a lecture, and describes it to the
> > lecturer by means of sensorial stimuli directly on his/her body.
> >
> >
> > and, by the way, here's a picture of me wearing a primordial version
> > of Conference Biofeedback for my conference at Consciousness Reframed
> > in Munich, together with Pier Luigi
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/network/artisopensource/wp-content/uploads/2009
> > /11/confbiofeedback.jpg
> > (not many electrical shocks received in that occasion :) )
> >
> > ciao!
> > s
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 17:33:03 +0200
> > From: "Avi Rosen" <avi@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: "'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS'" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <003501cbbca5$27de0ac0$779a2040$@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Hi Salvatore!
> > I have a Vlog on YouTube, "BITS_OF_MY_LIFE" -
> > http://www.youtube.com/ephemeral8 where I document my life for the last 3
> > years.( More than 40000 video clips). It's my digital avatar located in
> > cyberspace superposition. It will remain there for an endless period of Time
> > for the future generation.
> >
> > The BITS are the MEME for further construction \deconstruction of net
> > audiovisual mutual memory sequences... It's a form of immortality :-)
> > Avi.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of
> > xDxD.vs.xDxD
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 11:55 AM
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses
> > and the Un-Simulatable
> >
> > hello all!
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)
> > <jenniferkanary@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What about death in literature, death in imagination, is that a form
> >> of simulation? If imagination is a form of simulation, then the limits
> >> of the un-simulatable might be found there?
> >
> > and maybe death and after death can be imaginatively simulated, after all,
> > like in
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2008/01/15/dead-on-second-life/
> >
> > in which 3 artificial intelligences, fed with the original texts that Karl
> > Marx, Franz Kafka and Coco Chanel left us, have been embodied in autonomous
> > avatars on Second Life (walking around, choosing who/what to interact with,
> > etc completely on their own, according to behavioural algorithms built
> > around the characters' personality).
> >
> > This is a kind of simulation that interested me a lot, as it sits across the
> > formal dimensions of systems theory and the poetical re-enactment of
> > processes (or people! :) ): while there is a formal, scientific based
> > approach in the design and definition of the systems defining behaviour and
> > expression of the re-embodied-avatars, there also is the suggestion of how
> > people never, actually, die, continuing their lives in the memories,
> > imaginaries, sensations of the people who knew them (and this is actually a
> > really complex and totally insightful simulation of a human being).
> >
> > In more than one way they are completely alive, not dead, living in a
> > continuous multi-authored simulation based on the "material" (texts,
> > experiences, relationships...) that they left behind, and on a multitude of
> > interpretations.
> >
> > ciao!
> > salvatore
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
> > the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> > password in the fields found further down the page.
> >
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your
> > e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> > unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >
> > HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> > Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:18:09 +0100
> > From: Luigi Pagliarini <luigi@artificialia.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <D15F58BE-1FF9-4DD2-8E86-7EBECAE4E384@artificialia.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> >
> > Actually the death concept is implicit in what I (personally) consider the
> > "real" simulations :-) and it is there since the first GA was coded
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:32:55 +0100
> > From: Ziva Ljubec <ziva.ljubec@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 102,
> > Issue 1
> > To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=ua4p4zDQ+7YamOcdPMFr1Xqy+gV7scZBMfMKB@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > Dear Natasha, Jennifer, Simon and other Yasminers,
> >
> > we seem to be recognising empathy as that other non algorithmic
> > approach to simulating the ''unsimulatable''. Empathy, sympathy,
> > instincts and intuition are much broader venues of knowledge than pure
> > abstract, symbolic and conceptual intellect, but we seem to be
> > clueless how to access this absolute knowledge at will. Roger proposed
> > the enaction model of cognition, which might guide us towards
> > simulating the algorithmically irreducible procesess. Here is a
> > simplified chart of how enaction model differs from other cognitive
> > models:
> >
> > http://www.enolagaia.com/ECSTables.html
> >
> > Reading just the enaction coloumn there is evident trace of bergsonism
> > present:
> > METAPHOR FOR MIND:
> > Inseparable from experience and world
> > METAPHOR FOR COGNITION:
> > Ongoing interaction within the medium
> > THE WORLD IN RELATION TO US:
> > Engaged, brought forth, presentable through action
> > MIND VS. WORLD:
> > Inseparable mind and world enacted in history of interactions
> >
> > I must share this brilliant example of knowing from within and from
> > without (although it is quite cruel example I must warn you) that
> > demonstrates the capacity of simulation that leads to efficient
> > action, that perhaps in a way simulates through enaction:
> >
> > ... from Bergson, Creative Evolution, 1911
> >
> > ''Different species of hymenoptera that have a paralyzing instinct lay
> > their eggs in spiders, beetles or caterpillars, which having first
> > been subjected by the wasp to a skilfull surgical operation will go on
> > motionless for a certain number of days, and thus provide the larvae
> > with fresh meat.
> > In the sting which they give to the nerve-centres of their victim, in
> > order to destroy their power of moving without killing it, these
> > different species of hymenoptera take into accout, so to speak, the
> > different species of prey they respectively attack.''
> >
> > ''Compare the ammophila with the entomologist, who knows the
> > caterpillar as he knows everything else ? from the outside, and
> > without having on its part a special or vital interest.
> > The ammophilia must learn, one by one, like the entomologist, the
> > positions of the nerve centers of the caterpillar, must acquire at
> > least practical knowledge of these positions by trying the effects of
> > its sting.
> > But there is no need for such a view if we suppose sympathy between
> > the ammophila and its victim, which teaches it from within, so to say,
> > concerning the vulnerability of the caterpillar.
> > This feeling of the vulnerability might owe nothing to outward
> > perception, but results from the mere presence together of the
> > ammophila and the caterpillar, considered no longer as two organisms,
> > but as two activities. It would express a relation of the one to the other.
> > Certainly, a scientific theory cannot appeal to considerations of this
> > kind. It must not put action before organisation, sympathy before
> > perception and knowledge.''
> >
> > Ziva Ljubec
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 10
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:45:01 -0200
> > From: Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida <almeida.clarissa@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathy and Subjective Experience
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=VXhyBko5gmTt=gGauBWTy5J4QfdfxVo9Cia+o@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > A pocket post (or just a meditation):
> >
> >
> >
> > Starting from the serene considerations of Simon Biggs about the simulation
> > of mind, I want to recall my first post. I used the short/pocket tale around
> > scales, realities/worlds, perspectives? as an artifice to thing about
> > multilevel, many worlds, super complex contexts. Contexts like this, and as
> > Simon remembered it is the same concerning human mind, are unsimulatable. We
> > can only simulate what we simplify, the things/ideas we isolate, mutilate,
> > extract from its natural, intrinsic, complexity. To simulate is just an
> > exercise we realize in order to understand. Simulating/simplifying we can
> > communicate, explain in congress and symposiums and lectures and? we can
> > share. Simulation is invention and is translation and is becoming. The
> > simulated, is an emergence from our random conversations, interactions,
> > transactions. Not alone, we all together ? the humans and the ants and the
> > food and the plants; the sun and beyond; the radio waves? we simulate to
> > make the invisible, visible, giving this visible, several names ? waves and
> > particles and molecules and atoms and feelings and hormones and ideas. But,
> > despite it is super simple and evident, we love discussing to understand
> > ourselves as processes, open systems in system's pools, learning how to feel
> > comfortable with the idea we just collectively invented this marvelous
> > simulated real.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Clarissa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2011/1/24 Simon Biggs <simon@littlepig.org.uk>
> >
> >> Empathy would seem to involve one mind appreciating, by some means, the
> >> state of another mind. As yet no meaningful or useful definition of mind,
> >> or
> >> explication of how it comes to be, has been put forward so we are
> >> discussing
> >> something we know very little about. The mind, in the sense of a conscious
> >> being's sense of self, might not even exist, or at least not in the sense
> >> we
> >> appreciate it. Computers, on the other hand, clearly do not have a mind.
> >> They are computational machines, not beings.
> >>
> >> Whilst there seems to be a connection between mind and thought, the ability
> >> to compute and process information, it isn't necessary for an individual to
> >> have a higher level of intelligence to possess a mind, although
> >> intelligence
> >> and mind appear interdependent. Humans and most animals, even some
> >> organisms
> >> with minimal neural capacity, exhibit the properties associated with having
> >> a mind. This allows us to feel empathy with a small bird dying in our hand,
> >> even a fish caught in a net, but little empathy for a carrot that has just
> >> been pulled from the ground. That said, it is possible to feel empathy for
> >> a
> >> tree that has been injured. Where is the difference here? Where is the line
> >> between us projecting our sense of self onto the other (anthropomorphising
> >> a
> >> tree, for example) and our sense of an actual other, perceiving its
> >> subjective state in some way? If we knew the answer to this question, the
> >> difference between objects and subjects, then perhaps we could simulate
> >> mind
> >> and create a conscious machine.
> >>
> >> One thing I would be pretty confident of is that the mind is only partially
> >> dependent on the brain and other elements of the organism it is associated
> >> with. Mind seems as much emergent from and interactive with non-biological
> >> factors, such as social and physical space. In this respect mind is
> >> determined as much by our social relations, as expressed through language
> >> or
> >> the normalisation and negotiation of individual and collective behaviour,
> >> as the neural tissue in our heads. We would be wise to keep the ideas and
> >> practices emergent from the work of Freud, Merleau-Ponty and Levi-Strauss
> >> at
> >> the centre of any discussion on this subject. However, what is clear is
> >> that
> >> until we do understand what mind is we will not be able to simulate it. I
> >> wonder if we will ever achieve that understanding. Most of the time I doubt
> >> we will. When I do think we will I'm pretty quick to discount my hubris.
> >>
> >> I would propose that our understanding of ourselves, of the world around
> >> us,
> >> remains very limited. As a consequence of our limited knowledge I would
> >> argue that to date most things remain beyond our capacity to simulate them.
> >> To claim we do have the capacity to simulate things is to assume we have
> >> knowledge of them we most likely do not possess. This would seem arrogant
> >> in
> >> the extreme. Further to this, a simulation is only a knowledge modelling
> >> activity. Even where we do have enough information about something to build
> >> what seems to be a useful and functional simulation it does not mean we
> >> have
> >> made an accurate copy of something. It is only as accurate as we are able
> >> to
> >> test its accuracy and that testing is constrained by what we know. Even the
> >> best simulations are likely to be incomplete or even erroneous in their
> >> conception. To assume otherwise is to consider oneself to have complete and
> >> irrefutable knowledge of something. That does not seem like good
> >> (sceptical)
> >> science or philosophy. It starts to sound like arrogant dogma.
> >>
> >> Best
> >>
> >> Simon
> >>
> >>
> >> On 23/01/2011 17:43, "Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)" <
> >> jenniferkanary@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear All,
> >>>
> >>> In the meantime, I apologise if my own posts have actually contributed to
> >> the
> >>> rise to confusion :) Here is a post about the simulation of subjective
> >>> experience. Its in addition to my previous posts.
> >>>
> >>> Like I stated before, I'm interested in the Simulation of Empathy, well
> >> known
> >>> in
> >>> humans, but considered impossible in computers (for AI purposes). Empathy
> >>> being
> >>> the mental simulation of the experience of the other. When we know how
> >> our own
> >>> empathy systems work, and what role our own senses play in this, we might
> >>> learn
> >>> more about how this could be evoked in digital systems, AI and Robotics.
> >> This
> >>> is
> >>> strongly related to the theory of mirror neurons (it is also where we
> >> left off
> >>> at the last discussion with Derrick De Kerckhoves contribution). I am
> >>> interested
> >>> in how artists knowledge about how to evoke subjective experiences in
> >> humans
> >>> could contribute to our understanding as to how to evoke such
> >> experiences in
> >>> AI
> >>> systems and robotics. I'm interested in the role art experiences play in
> >>> evoking
> >>> empathy, how it jiggles our neurons and is there a form of
> >> programmability to
> >>> this?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For one to experience empathy, to have a sense as to what the other is
> >>> feeling,
> >>> one must have an idea or awareness that there is an other and one must
> >> have an
> >>> inner archive of subjective experiences and believe that the other feels.
> >> I
> >>> use
> >>> the word subjective experience to separate the subjective aspect of a
> >>> sensation,
> >>> a signal of the sense organ, and its emotional affect. I experience a
> >> signal,
> >>> I
> >>> experience the signal as pain, I experience fear. A digital system can
> >> sense
> >>> the
> >>> signal, but as far as we know, does not have a sensation about this
> >> signal,
> >>> not
> >>> does it compare it to our signals.
> >>>
> >>> Some believe that it is impossible for AI to feel, subjective experience
> >> is
> >>> ambiguous and ambiguity causes error in a computers calculations. Some
> >> believe
> >>> that subjective experience comes from a heart and soul, and that
> >> computers do
> >>> not have a soul and thus can never experience subjectivity. As an artist
> >>> interested in scientific speculations I wonder how to change our
> >> perspective
> >>> in
> >>> this thinking. This changes dramatically when scientific speculations
> >> rise
> >>> like
> >>> The Universe is a Quantum Computer. In such a world Simulation is Life.
> >> We are
> >>> Avatars creating Avatars. We are Worlds creating Worlds. The Simulated
> >>> Simulate
> >>> in an ongoing cycle of many layers. It gives a whole new meaning to
> >> concepts
> >>> of
> >>> God as a Creator, God residing in All of us, God made man in his own
> >> image.
> >>> It
> >>> is a very cybernetic approach, that everything is computed.
> >>>
> >>> For me Simulation is Computation, be it by my brain, by a digital or
> >> analogue
> >>> or
> >>> quantum computer. I'm interested in how technology and art are used as a
> >> tools
> >>> of empathy. I am interested in how subjective experience is generated
> >> by all
> >>> technologies. I'm interested in how qbits might solve the issue of
> >> ambiguation
> >>> causing error in computations of classical computers.
> >>>
> >>> Our senses play a big role in how we empathise. We sense muscles
> >> tensions in
> >>> the faces of others, we learn to 'read' such faces and make conclusions
> >> about
> >>> how the other is feeling, we compare it to how we feel when our muscles
> >> are
> >>> like
> >>> that. In our current society we do not take several of our senses
> >> seriously.
> >>> We
> >>> need to focus on how our all our senses can be simulated with digital
> >>> computers
> >>> and how the data, the incoming signals of sensors interfere and affect
> >>> interpretation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> How our senses dance a dance of signals that triggers our neurons. If we
> >> know
> >>> how it is evoked in brains with the use of technology, we will learn more
> >>> about
> >>> how to evoke it in computers. In particular from the view that we are all
> >>> jiggling atoms ;) How to make my Avatar/Robot feel? How to put the Gaia
> >> in the
> >>> world of my Avatar/Robot?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jennifer
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>>
> >>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> >> In
> >>> the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> >>> password in the fields found further down the page.
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> >> your
> >>> e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> >>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> >> Digest
> >>> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Simon Biggs
> >> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> >> http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> >>
> >> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> >> http://www.elmcip.net/
> >> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>
> >> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>
> >> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> >> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> >> password in the fields found further down the page.
> >>
> >> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> >> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
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> >>
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> >> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 11
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:48:03 -0200
> > From: Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida <almeida.clarissa@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTimMzpnjj+f3-3hX6_s4CFMqj0B2k1_H8_QJWpr6@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > Man-Machine (or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T65NpyfPkQ)
> >
> >
> > And we cannot forget the creation/simulation of reality depends on previous
> > simulations/super-extension of our senses we made. Here, the amazing and
> > powerful "*Thermo Quantum Discovery* LC/MS/MS System" - the most robust and
> > sensitive triple quadrupole in its class:
> >
> > http://www.ietltd.com/inventory.jsp?id=944
> >
> >
> >
> > It is interesting as well, to take a look in the inventory available at the
> > ?International Equipament Tranding? website:
> >
> > http://www.ietltd.com/inventory.jsp
> >
> >
> >
> > The super-machines can "help" in to run "small sacale simulations" and think
> > about, for instance, ?Adiabatic quantum optimization?:
> >
> > http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.2782
> >
> >
> >
> > And we can discuss everything in a realm where ?all is composed of
> > references with no referents?, a hyperreality:
> >
> > http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/06/magic-quantum-wand-does-not-vanish
> > -hard-maths.ars
> >
> > Here, there and everywhere?
> >
> >
> >
> > Clarissa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2011/1/25 xDxD.vs.xDxD <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> >
> >> hello roger and all,
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 12:35 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>> I would like to make the assertion that relying on digital simulations
> >>> is creating
> >>> a situation where we focus primarily on processes that are theoretically
> >>> simulatable or computable=
> >>> whereas there are many other processes that are just not
> >>> simulatable and there is a danger that we are developing huge blind spots
> >>> (similarly there are parts of the universe that are theoretically
> >> unobservable
> >>> eg the interior of a black hole, or the universe further away than
> >>> light could travel since the birth of the universe)
> >>>
> >>> the work of artists , with its emphasis on triggering subjective
> >>> experience.and exploitation of phenomena that may be unsimulatable may
> >>> open up interesting
> >>> areas of research that computer scientists are not focused on
> >>>
> >>> are there any examples ?
> >>
> >>
> >> we need cognitive scientists or/and some more anthropologists! :)
> >>
> >> as this is a problem that is truly similar to the international
> >> discussion on "how do we go beyond ethnographical writing?"
> >>
> >> or: anthropological reports are an incomplete simulation. They
> >> represent the point of view of the anthropologist and, in that, they
> >> are, allow me to make it simple, novels. With that i do not mean that
> >> they "are not good", i just mean that they are "incomplete", as we
> >> know since the works of Mead and Bateson that "completeness" is a
> >> concept that is somewhat awkward to define, and probabily the key to
> >> describing it is to let it describe itself, by not trying to define it
> >> and by finding ways in which the multiplicity of voices and
> >> perceptions, and the network of relations, and their evolution in time
> >> and space can express themselves. And also getting ready to accept
> >> that a "system" (self-)described in this way is not coherent, static,
> >> or objective. As roger said: there is not shortcut.
> >>
> >> yet again the most interesting parts (for me, obviously :) )of the
> >> scientific research in this field are those that are creating a
> >> short-circuit between "the map and the territory", by using the
> >> territory (and its inhabitants, and cultures, and relations, and
> >> expressions...) as the map itself through technologies that allow both
> >> reading, writing and interpreting the world in its "entirety" (at
> >> least theoretically, as it would require *everything/everyone* to be
> >> technologically connected). In this perspective: the simulation of the
> >> system is the system itself and, thus, can become simulatable.
> >>
> >> ciao!
> >> s
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>
> >> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>
> >> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> >> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> >> password in the fields found further down the page.
> >>
> >> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> >> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
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> >>
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> >> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 12
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:04:49 -0500
> > From: Joshua Madara <jamadara@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathyand Subjective Experience
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTikcWqk5j_=e4y+Q_+DgDGL4qG+26UitYft6v3KU@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > I suppose the difficulty with externalizing subjective experience
> > (i.e. re/constructing it within an artifact) is like how it is
> > difficult to show that God is on the inside. Alan Watts cut into an
> > apple to show his children that God is on the inside, and showed that
> > every time you cut into another piece of apple, you just see more of
> > its outside (i.e. one cannot reach God through analysis). If we could
> > access subjective experience by any way other than directly
> > experiencing it, would it not cease being subjective? We can talk
> > about it, we can measure its correlations (e.g. EEG activity), but
> > words and electrical signals are not subjective experiences.
> >
> > It is comparatively easy to simulate emotion in artifacts. Maturana
> > said that an automobile has emotion. "You put it in first gear and you
> > have a powerful car. You say, 'Look how powerful this car is in
> > first!' It's aggressive, because when you scarcely touch the
> > accelerator, vrrooom! It takes off!" But isn't that metaphorical, we
> > ask? "To a certain extent, but more than metaphorical it is
> > 'isophorical,' that is, it refers to something in the same class. You
> > put the car in fifth and you travel at a higher speed, and the car is
> > peaceful, fluid, serene. What is happening there? Each time you change
> > gears, you change the internal configuration of the automobile and it
> > does different things. Emotions correspond precisely to that, from the
> > biological perspective they are internal changes in configuration that
> > transform the reactivity of the living being, such that the living
> > being in the relational space is different."
> > (http://www.tierramerica.info/2000/1126/questions.html)
> >
> > Note the role of the observer in attributing emotion to the
> > automobile. The same happens with empathy. When we observe a mother
> > bear become "angry" when a foreign agent approaches near to her child,
> > we do not (cannot?) know for certain that she actually feels anger. We
> > infer that she does when she expresses in a way that we recognize as
> > homomorphic with our own expressions when we feel anger. (The
> > "inference" may not be logical, but a simpler computation of
> > difference.) Ditto for how we respond to Johnny 5, WALL-E, etc.
> >
> > Empathy requires the ability to model another's emotional state (here
> > I do not mean "model" in the sense of an imaginative construct, but in
> > the Conant-Ashby sense, as a homomorphism), and I do not suppose that
> > requires understanding (as humans acquire through language and
> > complex, imaginative models) nor personhood (although it may approach
> > personhood especially as it develops or is developed to respond to
> > persons). Here are two projects using computers that detect human
> > emotional states and respond accordingly -- note that they are both
> > attempts at understanding and personhood:
> >
> > 1. Cambridge Ideas - The Emotional Computer
> > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whCJ4NLUSB8)
> >
> > 2. The New Face of Autism Therapy
> > (http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-05/humanoid-robots-are-new-therapi
> > sts)
> >
> > Aside: Do Animals Feel Empathy?
> > (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-animals-feel-empathy)
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Joshua
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>
> > wrote:
> >> Hi Jennifer,
> >>
> >> You wrote:
> >>
> >>> In the meantime, I apologies if my own posts have actually contributed to
> >> the rise to
> >>> confusion :) Here is a post about the simulation of subjective experience.
> >> Its in
> >>> addition to my previous posts.
> >>
> >> You are not confusing things Jennifer. I think it is how we want to talk
> >> about simulation and your interest appears to be of simulation as having
> >> potential in computational systems, which is timely, although I'm not a
> >> religious person so I don't see it pertainint to God, but I do see it as
> >> pertaining to we are all part of an evolving cybernetics.
> >>
> >>> Like I stated before, I'm interested in the Simulation of Empathy, well
> >> known in humans,
> >>> but considered impossible in computers (for AI purposes). Empathy being the
> >> mental
> >>> simulation of the experience of the other.
> >>
> >> Empathy may be the most needed and also the most difficult experiential
> >> behavior to obtain. ?To have empathy an agent needs to understand the
> >> thoughts, feelings and state of another agent/person. ?To have empathy then,
> >> the agent would also have to have "personhood." ?So, what is personhood if
> >> it is not to be alive, self-awareness, and able to make decisions. How can
> >> something make decisions if it is not alive and self-aware? ?Certainly AI
> >> makes decisions and interacts with its environment, but not alive. So the
> >> issue is what makes AI alive?
> >>
> >>> Some believe that it is impossible for AI to feel, subjective experience is
> >> ambiguous and
> >>> ambiguity causes error in a computers calculations. Some believe that
> >> subjective experience
> >>> comes from a heart and soul, and that computers do not have a soul and thus
> >> can never
> >>> experience subjectivity.
> >>
> >> AI is narrow. ?"Strong AI" is where we would have to begin, and which takes
> >> us to the baby steps of A[G]I (i.e., artificial general intelligence,
> >> hereinafter "AGI"), which is where AI was originally headed before its
> >> winter (inability to achieve its original directive in producing human level
> >> intelligence). ?AGI offers the potential for being self-aware and able to
> >> make decisions based on "experience". ?Through its experience in its
> >> learning, it could obtain personhood at the juncture where the idea of life
> >> and death becomes redefined based on semi and non-biological or synthetic
> >> systems which develop self-awareness and may want rights, similar to the
> >> rights of humans.
> >>
> >> With all this said, the issue of empathy could be obtainable by AGIs. ?But I
> >> have to return to my original post on this one, if I may. ?A brain that is
> >> transferable or copied onto a computational system, would also transfer or
> >> copy its mind (in the material sense) and that mind would contain the
> >> feelings, emotions, and sensorial memory of the biological person). ?If the
> >> AGI could relate to this, it would also become familiar and experience the
> >> feelings, emotions and sensory memory of the human. ?So the merging of
> >> humans and technology becomes even more blurred and the AGI would learn
> >> empathy through its own experiential behavior.
> >>
> >> All my best,
> >> Natasha
> >>
> >> Natasha Vita-More
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 13
> > Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 00:17:21 +0000
> > From: V?tor Reia-Baptista <vreia@ualg.pt>
> > Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Some other contributes to the
> > Discussions Around Simulation II
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <20110126001721.99964000f4t29xk4@wmail.ualg.pt>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
> > format="flowed"
> >
> > Hi.
> > One of the most interesting texts that I?ve read touching this subject
> > (still considering the specific aspect of representation and simulated
> > representation) is Umberto Eco?s ?Travels in Hyperreality?. Of
> > course, we have to remember that this text was written in 1975, thus,
> > much earlier than everybody was using terms like ?hypertexts?,
> > ?virtual reality? or ?cyberspace?, at least in the sense that we are
> > giving to them today as given elements of simulation of a ?real?
> > ?second life?. In this text Eco identified the world of ?Hyperreality?
> > as the world of ?Absolute Fakes?, but in a way that made the faking
> > mechanisms, imitations or simulations, not merely reproduce reality,
> > but eventually improve it. He illustrates this aspect with the
> > examples of the faked Disney Worlds, where real life elements like
> > cities, streets and houses (castles and alike) would offer the perfect
> > environments for different lifelike figures to play real lifelike
> > stories. Once inside those stories everybody would be able to live, or
> > to simulate living (which in that context would mean the same),
> > different actions obtaining different feelings and different states of
> > mind that would be rather hard to get without those simulation
> > environments.
> > I think that this example given by Eco (but we could in fact be
> > speaking of many fiction films, cartoons or videogames) help us to
> > understand at least part of the problem: we need to reproduce
> > different environments and different actions for many different
> > purposes, from pure entertainment to strict scientific aims, but we
> > should also remain aware of some words said by Eco about these
> > processes being generally ?an allegory of the consumer society, a
> > place of absolute iconicism? where the simulation environment ?is also
> > as place of total passivity? and ?its visitors must agree to behave
> > like robots?.
> > This bring us back to the worries of Baudrillard, that I?ve mentioned
> > already in a former post, showing that many of the possible simulation
> > situations that we share, in fact, today are many times signs of other
> > states of alienation, either in real life situations, or in controlled
> > laboratory situations.
> > These were only some loose thoughts that I tried to put together
> > aiming to come closer to a more analytical approach within the
> > discussions, but after reading them now, I can hardly agree that they
> > contribute to that purpose at all.
> > Best wishes to you all.
> > V?tor
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 14
> > Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 04:11:52 +0100
> > From: Luigi Pagliarini <luigi@artificialia.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <35ABA5B7-7572-414F-B1A9-6EB6698D5E87@artificialia.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> >
> >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 12:35 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >>> I would like to make the assertion that relying on digital simulations
> >>> is creating
> >>> a situation where we focus primarily on processes that are theoretically
> >>> simulatable or computable=
> >>> whereas there are many other processes that are just not
> >>> simulatable and there is a danger that we are developing huge blind spots
> >>> (similarly there are parts of the universe that are theoretically
> >>> unobservable
> >>> eg the interior of a black hole, or the universe further away than
> >>> light could travel since the birth of the universe)
> >>>
> >>> the work of artists , with its emphasis on triggering subjective
> >>> experience.and exploitation of phenomena that may be unsimulatable may
> >>> open up interesting
> >>> areas of research that computer scientists are not focused on
> >>>
> >>> are there any examples ?
> >
> >
> > it is a strange question!
> > not to be self-referential but.. maybe these examples?
> > http://www.artificialia.com/intelligenza/
> > http://www.artificialia.com/CG/english.html
> > http://www.artificialia.com/AoD/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> >
> > End of Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 103, Issue 1
> > **************************************************
>
>
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