that take 5-10 days to complete as part of a ritual are totally erased
after the ceremony is over with no visual record whatsoever. i esteem
this approach very much, i bow and salute it sincerely and
respectfully...
valuing systems, stock exchange, art buying, markets, competition,
copyrights, individuality, lack of anonimity are all western concepts
anyway:)
best,
murat
<<< +90 532 473 8970 (gsm mobile)
<<< muratgermen@gmail.com
<<< http://www.muratgermen.com
<<< http://www.flickr.com/photos/muratgermen/
On 03.Mar.2009, at 16:39, David Haley wrote:
> In many parts of India, women 'perform' Rangoli every morning.
> Rangoli is a popular form of art, usually drawn with sand on the
> threshold to the home. Although the images are often very intricate
> and magnificent, this 'art' and act of worship is swept away and
> renewed each day. Another word, still spoken in contemporary Hindi
> according to Vandana Shiva, comes from the Rig Vedas and is the
> route of the word 'art', via the Greek word, 'erete', is 'rta'. Rta
> means the dynamic process by which the whole cosmos continues to be
> created, virtuously.
>
> Says something about different value systems?
>
> All the best
> David
>
> On 3 Mar 2009, at 00:53, robert.thill@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Interesting and vivid points, Murat.
>>
>> I think the short answer to part of your final statement that "there
>> should be some sort of a right protection process involved within the
>> art world" is that copyrights can provide protection for art.
>>
>> Since the topic of this discussion was partially inspired by the book
>> "Artists as Inventors / Inventors as Artists" (eds. Dieter Daniels
>> and
>> [discussant] Barbara U. Schmidt), I thought I would draw on an idea
>> in
>> the text to bring out an aspect of the topic you have raised.
>>
>> In the introduction a kind of conclusion is reached that there
>> "exists
>> no mirror-image symmetry between the social roles of the artist and
>> the inventor." The example given to illustrate the point is a quote
>> from Billy Klüver: "But if a person says he or she is an artist, one
>> can't say to that person: 'You are not an artist.' You are not
>> allowed
>> to say that." The text makes the point that "this popular
>> understanding of the term means that being an artist resists external
>> definition, whereas the label 'inventor,' though indeed not the
>> designation of a profession per se, can nevertheless be substantiated
>> by means of objective criteria such as patents." (p. 12-13).
>>
>> While this set of relationships is framed in popular understandings
>> of
>> roles and brings up a key point in the book's thesis (and the text
>> also warns us about generalizations here), it omits the fact that an
>> artist does have an objective criteria to substantiate his or her
>> role
>> and work, which is a copyright. Copyright is the artist's equivalent
>> to an inventor's patent. (This statement is not meant to imply that
>> there are not inventors and artists who don't participate in these
>> two
>> systems or who particularly value them in terms of their own
>> self-definitions.)
>>
>> However, if what I write is accurate and these are indeed two
>> objective ways in which artists and inventors can substantiate their
>> work and roles, the more revealing question might be why are these
>> two
>> systems of intellectual property protection so distinctly different?
>> Why are the terms and values not reciprocal? And should they be?
>>
>> The artist Lisa Schmitz has explored this contradiction by proposing,
>> in 1993, a new institution to be named the World Artistic Property
>> Organization (WAPO), which would operate as a patent-office
>> equivalent
>> for art ideas.
>>
>> Here is a section of a text that I wrote about the WAPO project
>> with a
>> link to the online version (I have stripped out the endnotes).
>>
>> "Most directly, the WAPO installation pondered the distinctions
>> between art and invention through the differences in the legal
>> protections of copyright and patents, asking who benefits from the
>> disparities and how artists might begin a constructive dialogue about
>> how to protect art from exploitative appropriation. Phase two of the
>> WAPO project, which was carried out in Linz in 1995, included
>> collaboration with Norbert Nowotsch and Mark Olson and explored the
>> creation of a Web-based platform and repository for the documentation
>> and disclosure of art ideas. A supplementary text about the WAPO
>> proposed the act of bartering as a potential way of exposing the
>> underpinnings of ownership and valuation to better understand
>> communication, meaning, and agreement in relation to exchange value."
>>
>> Schmitz's project also explored the concept of self-ownership.
>>
>> Please explore the site, especially the history of the project.
>> WAPO, http://www01.zkm.de/~wapo/index.html.
>>
>> I have asked Lisa Schmitz to join our discussion on YASMIN and she
>> will come online toward the end of the week.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/2/09, murat germen <muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu> wrote:
>>> i would like to add couple of things...
>>>
>>> contemporary conceptual art rests heavily on ideas as we know. it's
>>> not the craft in the work but the idea usually that makes the work
>>> valuable these days (i personally value craft as well, in addition
>>> to
>>> "the" idea by the way). art market is an amazingly active market,
>>> even
>>> in the days of economical crisis the amount of sales and activity is
>>> surprisingly substantial. the simple equation goes like this: art
>>> depends on idea, art has a market value, then artistic idea has a
>>> market value too (sometimes millions of dollars) and it has to be
>>> legally protected somehow.
>>>
>>> i visited paris photo last year, japan was the guest country.
>>> there is
>>> one japanese photographer (among others) that i really like; hiroshi
>>> sugimoto. he is especially known with some very minimal seascapes
>>> (http://www.sugimotohiroshi.com/seascape.html
>>> ). sugimoto sells very well, i saw a photo from the seascape series
>>> which was around 70.000 euros and it had 5 red dots on it. when i
>>> was
>>> walking through thousands of images, one seascape photo caught my
>>> attention in another booth and it looked very much like a sugimoto
>>> photo. i approached to see details, saw it was somebody else's and
>>> felt pretty awkward. this particular style is sugimoto's
>>> signature, it
>>> is in a way a reserved slot in these circles and producing something
>>> very similar to it, is taking advantage of the commercial
>>> potential of
>>> the particular expression style. yes, everybody can take sea photos;
>>> but there are tons of other ways to deal with sea and water...
>>>
>>> i am not claiming at all that artistic idea is a more worthwhile
>>> invention than other "types" of inventions that made our lives more
>>> easy, pleasant, rich, etc.; but artistic creation, though not
>>> indispensable and vital, is something that can make our lives
>>> different, enjoyable, excited at times. since creation is directly
>>> linked with idea, there should be some sort of a right protection
>>> process involved within the art world. but i cannot at this moment
>>> propose a particular protection system since i am not
>>> knowledgeable at
>>> all in law...
>>>
>>> regards
>>> murat
>>>
>>>
>>> <<< +90 532 473 8970 (gsm mobile)
>>> <<< muratgermen@gmail.com
>>> <<< http://www.muratgermen.com
>>> <<< http://www.flickr.com/photos/muratgermen/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 01.Mar.2009, at 23:52, robert.thill@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you for your comments, Bronac.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, conceptual art practices and patents are not the same thing. I
>>>> hope that my introduction did not confuse or conflate them.
>>>>
>>>> In my statement, I began by describing my area of research, which
>>>> is
>>>> the intersections between patents and contemporary art.
>>>>
>>>> In the paragraph about artist as inventors, I do not mention
>>>> patents.
>>>> The series of quotes by the artist Jakob Fenger of Superflex
>>>> speak to
>>>> parallels between inventing and art-making; he is not referring to
>>>> patents. His comments address our discussion's topic of artists as
>>>> inventors, which he links through creativity.
>>>>
>>>> However, I will add here that Superflex did secure patents for
>>>> their
>>>> biogas system. Nevertheless, according to Fenger, it was not
>>>> intentionally an integral part of the work's concept. The driving
>>>> force for Superflex's patenting was to engage investors in their
>>>> project. At that time (about a decade ago), investors were
>>>> demanding
>>>> an intellectual property position. In an e-mail message on 3
>>>> February
>>>> 2009, Fenger describes the situation and references the related
>>>> shift
>>>> in their newer work, which engages intellectual property from a
>>>> significantly different vantage point, he wrote: "If we were to
>>>> start
>>>> out developing the biogas system today, we work quite differently
>>>> ('copy-shop,' 'free beer,' 'copy right,' etc.) and we do not see
>>>> any
>>>> thread in people copying our system."
>>>>
>>>> I am glad to offer examples of artworks that deliberately attempt
>>>> to
>>>> integrate patent and art concepts as the discussion continues. I
>>>> also
>>>> think the idea of examining the role of design is interesting.
>>>> However, as we begin the dialogue, I think it might be productive
>>>> to
>>>> keep the discussion more broadly on the topic of artists as
>>>> inventors.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/1/09, Bronac Ferran <bronacferran@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Interesting discussion and I would like to add some comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it is quite provocative and dangerous to conflate
>>>>> conceptual art
>>>>> practice with the notion of a patent (which is a legal device)
>>>>> or a
>>>>> trademark (similar).
>>>>>
>>>>> I attended a talk with a representative of Superflex a few weeks
>>>>> ago at
>>>>> South London Gallery which also had a lawyer who has done some
>>>>> great work
>>>>> with radical art - Daniel McClean. Some of these issues and
>>>>> questions were
>>>>> covered but at no stage was there a straightforward conflation of
>>>>> patenting
>>>>> with concepts - obviously what Superflex have done is go beyond
>>>>> concept into
>>>>> production of goods and services for sale which of course then
>>>>> leads into
>>>>> realisation of objects within a market (with all the legal systems
>>>>> thereby
>>>>> implied).
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope that some of the parsing apart of this kind of conflation
>>>>> can be
>>>>> activated within the process of this Yasmin discussion - and that
>>>>> we may
>>>>> also put a finger on some examples where artistic 'invention' has
>>>>> led to
>>>>> patenting (as the list is very small at present). We should also
>>>>> take into
>>>>> account the role of design which has a much clearer and much more
>>>>> straightforward relationship, here.
>>>>>
>>>>> all best wishes
>>>>> Bronac
>>>>> www.boundaryobject.org .
>>>>> http://uk.youtube.com/iderca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/3/1 <robert.thill@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Yasminers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wish to thank Roger Malina for the opportunity to moderate the
>>>>>> discussion on artists as inventors and our six accomplished
>>>>>> discussants for their participation: Derek Hales, Sylvie Lacerte,
>>>>>> Arantxa Mendiharat, Hideki Nakazawa, Barbara U. Schmidt, and
>>>>>> Colette
>>>>>> Tron.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My interest in artists as inventors stems from my curiosity about
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> intersections between contemporary art and utility patents. I
>>>>>> discovered through research that this seemingly narrow terrain
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> actually an expansive area, which could encompass a wide range of
>>>>>> practices that went far beyond artists' patents. For instance, it
>>>>>> could include elements as diverse as the novel achievements of an
>>>>>> innovator whose self-patent works were reclassified as
>>>>>> "visionary"
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> "outsider" art (William W. Adkins) and a patent institution that
>>>>>> collects contemporary art and displays it in the workplace with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> progressive idea of stimulating discussion, productivity, and
>>>>>> integration (the European Patent Office).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, the topic of artists as inventors is focused on the
>>>>>> relationship between the roles and practices that are conjured by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> terms. To this end, I will share comments on the subject by the
>>>>>> artist
>>>>>> Jakob Fenger, who is a member of Superflex, which invented
>>>>>> (with Jan
>>>>>> Mallan) a biogas system. In a conversation via Skype on 12
>>>>>> February
>>>>>> 2009, Fenger told me that "all good artists are inventors,"
>>>>>> adding
>>>>>> that "a concept for a piece is like an invention," and that in
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> opinion there is "no difference between inventing and art-
>>>>>> making,"
>>>>>> referencing the creative process as the link between these two
>>>>>> activities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on the topic of artists as
>>>>>> inventors throughout March.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert Thill
>>>>>>
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>
> David Haley BA(Hons) MA FRSA
>
> Senior Research Fellow
> Director, A&E [art&ecology] research unit
> MA Art As Environment Programme Leader
> SEA: Social & Environmental Arts Research Centre
> MIRIAD
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