Yasmin List: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Collective Genius: Yasmin

Roger,Wanting to clarify two issues I stated re: creative collaboration
discussion.
1. When stating " I do believe the future, as I think Roger is suggesting,
is in collaborative pooling of resources." * *
*I did not mean monetary/funding resources. I meant the pooling of
knowledge - varied approaches, the respective offerings / expertise that
partners can bring to meaningful collaborative creations. *
*
*
*2. *re: psychologist involvement *- *
*In Rovaniemi (Finland), I actually brought up the idea of having a virtual
therapist included in the program - I was not joking! Barry Holden and I
began developing a possible platform soon after. Another stimulating after
image of thought / after affect, I recognize and applaud re: the emobilart
organizing team's work. *
*

nyankowitz@gmail.com
www.nyartprojects.com
*
*
*

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Today's Topics:

1. collective genius (roger malina)
2. Re: collective genius (Jack Ox)
3. Re: collective genius (ramon guardans)
4. collective genius (roger malina)
5. Re: collective genius (teoman madra)
6. Re: collective genius (Chris Fremantle)
7. Re: collective genius (Simon Biggs)
8. collective genius (roger malina)
9. Creativity as social mind (Simon Biggs)
10. Re: Creativity as social mind (Paul Brown)
11. Re: collective genius (Joseph Ingoldsby)
12. Re: Creativity as social mind (Simon Biggs)
13. Re: collective genius (Simon Biggs)
14. Re: Collective Genius (Chris Fremantle)
15. Re: Creativity as social mind (Paul Brown)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:24:31 -0700
From: roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<4fe4f0af0908101324y3bd3c7e1mc8a6004c0f3212b6@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

nina

thanks for responding my suggestion that we discuss the issues around
creativity
and collaboration-triggered by simon biggs post below where he challenges
the
idea that collective or collaborative teams can display 'genius"

"Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk> wrote:

> Which brings us to your point about genius and the jump of creativity.
> Whilst I agree that creativity does not work in straight lines or as a
> coherent progression I do not think there is such a thing as genius. As I
> have already indicated, I have a lot of time for Newton's idea of
team-work.
> I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
> Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour's of expanded and
> diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an instance
> of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and defined
> by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an
essential
> or irreducible self - the self is more like a construction). In a sense I
> find it difficult to identify what is in and what is out. As such, all our
> activities are more or less distributed and collective in nature. I do not
> see how genius can fit in that model.

I think that in this yasmin discussion I want to push the question of
whether
work done in collaboration can display "genius" and I think it can- if we
mean
by genius major work that is not incremental in nature but in some way
recasts
and raises entirely new solutins and questions whether in the arts and
sciences

what are the best examples we can cite of really interesting
art/science/technology
collaboration which displayed genius or really excellent work

there are for example some very prominent 'couples' in our field where the
work
is really first rate,but could never have been accomplished without the team
of
the two people- these probably dont rise to the level of 'genius' but
i think could
be one line or argument

for instance;

woody and steine vasulka
helen and newton harrions
christa sommerer and laurent mignoneau

can any one name other exceptional couples whose creative work
would be unthinkable without their collaboration ?

roger

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:43:21 -0600
From: Jack Ox <jackox@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <CA110F3D-C6C9-43D8-B9CC-DC4E1245CD8A@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Roger

MMMM very interesting about genius in group. I don't think genius is
something which is a gift- it is something that one has had to work
for. It includes native ability- but maybe part of that ability is to
apply oneself in rapt attention for distinctive time periods. If that
is so- then genius in a group would be members applying themselves in
the same way, and having an ability to communicate between themselves
in a complex, nuanced way. Genius is something that one can achieve,
and it would be rare indeed where it is not the product of enormous
effort.
Jack
On Aug 10, 2009, at 2:24 PM, roger malina wrote:

> nina
>
> thanks for responding my suggestion that we discuss the issues
> around creativity
> and collaboration-triggered by simon biggs post below where he
> challenges the
> idea that collective or collaborative teams can display 'genius"
>
>
> "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Which brings us to your point about genius and the jump of
>> creativity.
>> Whilst I agree that creativity does not work in straight lines or
>> as a
>> coherent progression I do not think there is such a thing as
>> genius. As I
>> have already indicated, I have a lot of time for Newton's idea of
>> team-work.
>> I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
>> Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour's of expanded
>> and
>> diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an
>> instance
>> of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and
>> defined
>> by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an
>> essential
>> or irreducible self - the self is more like a construction). In a
>> sense I
>> find it difficult to identify what is in and what is out. As such,
>> all our
>> activities are more or less distributed and collective in nature. I
>> do not
>> see how genius can fit in that model.
>
> I think that in this yasmin discussion I want to push the question
> of whether
> work done in collaboration can display "genius" and I think it can-
> if we mean
> by genius major work that is not incremental in nature but in some
> way recasts
> and raises entirely new solutins and questions whether in the arts
> and sciences
>
> what are the best examples we can cite of really interesting
> art/science/technology
> collaboration which displayed genius or really excellent work
>
> there are for example some very prominent 'couples' in our field
> where the work
> is really first rate,but could never have been accomplished without
> the team of
> the two people- these probably dont rise to the level of 'genius' but
> i think could
> be one line or argument
>
> for instance;
>
> woody and steine vasulka
> helen and newton harrions
> christa sommerer and laurent mignoneau
>
>
> can any one name other exceptional couples whose creative work
> would be unthinkable without their collaboration ?
>
> roger
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
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>
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:57:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: ramon guardans <ramonguardans@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>, YASMIN
DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <475998.50719.qm@web110201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

greetings yasminers

first i think "genius" is a kind of funny self defeating term, you need
propagation for a genious and thus its a social construct and not an
individual.

one example i would like to explore is Margaret Hamilton who directed the
team that developped the software in the saturn5 and apollo linking, for the
first time in civilian evirionments, the pyrotechnics developed by the nazi
engineers, with the gyroscopes, telecoms and astronomical calulations of
trajectory and speed.

her work was so good that the whole softwre did not have one significant bug
or glitch in 15 flights and somehow nobody has ever herd about her.

also it was arround the saturn5 team (a collective geniuas run by one
discrete woman) that people learned about flowcharts and programming
computers to do things

see

http://www.klabs.org/history/history_docs/mit_docs/gnc.htm

and in particular

http://www.klabs.org/history/history_docs/mit_docs/1711.pdf

p19 for the role of margaret hmilton

and also this rahter creepy

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11Hamilton.html

so we have here a process (the intorduction of computers into civil society
and the use of large scale complex planning tools) that happend arround the
saturn5 apollo programe at nasa, this did play a hughe role in shaping our
ways today, smart and effective, new and productive work of a genius..

but she was not available for interviews

be well
r

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:43:10 -0700
From: roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<4fe4f0af0908101343l6a4b6d2esecac93dcf48705fc@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

yasminers

here is another line of thought on simon's challenge on
whether collaborations can display "genius' or not

some forms of contemporary creativity= involve close
coupling of a human with a software=that co evolves
as the human interacts and develops the software

artist roman verostko, who received a SIGGRAPH Art Prize
this year

http://verostko.com/

has always claimed that as he developed his computer
drawing system, the machine started generating ideas that
he would never had had by himself, and that at some point
he felt the machine/software became a kind of collaborator

Artist harold cohen
http://crca.ucsd.edu/~hcohen/
has work of a related nature

william Latham and his work on evolutionary art
also make claims about co-creation

http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~latham/

in a recent article in science Ross King and co authors write
an interesting report on The Automation of Science

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/324/5923/85

We report the development of Robot Scientist "Adam," which advances
the automation of both.
Adam has autonomously generated functional genomics hypotheses about
the yeast Saccharomyces
cerevisiae and experimentally tested these hypotheses by using
laboratory automation. We have
confirmed Adam's conclusions through manual experiments. To describe
Adam's research, we have
developed an ontology and logical language. The resulting
formalization involves over 10,000 different
research units in a nested treelike structure, 10 levels deep, that
relates the 6.6 million biomass
measurements to their logical description. This formalization
describes how a machine
contributed to scientific knowledge

They explain how hypotheses can be proposed either by the machine or the
human

they claim that the work of Adam is 'non trivial' and in one case they
have solved
a 50 year old puzzle in gene encoding

it is perhaps early days for such human=machine collaborations to
display "genius"
but why not ?

Roger

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:14:07 -0700
From: teoman madra <namoet2@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<b6eb371f0908101414k5da8d39dg2cba6732d30e7366@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

YES it may be an unusual way that takes a good deal of efforts
at random decided directions of contemporary focus variations...
When it is art to deal with, one gets acquainted with all
possibile intense incidences as parts of ones own concerns...
then things are not ingeniuities, but one same storiy with
real variations in the group

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Jack Ox <jackox@comcast.net> wrote:

> Roger
>
> MMMM very interesting about genius in group. I don't think genius is
> something which is a gift- it is something that one has had to work for.
It
> includes native ability- but maybe part of that ability is to apply
oneself
> in rapt attention for distinctive time periods. If that is so- then genius
> in a group would be members applying themselves in the same way, and
having
> an ability to communicate between themselves in a complex, nuanced way.
> Genius is something that one can achieve, and it would be rare indeed
where
> it is not the product of enormous effort.
> Jack
>
> On Aug 10, 2009, at 2:24 PM, roger malina wrote:
>
> nina
>>
>> thanks for responding my suggestion that we discuss the issues around
>> creativity
>> and collaboration-triggered by simon biggs post below where he challenges
>> the
>> idea that collective or collaborative teams can display 'genius"
>>
>>
>> "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Which brings us to your point about genius and the jump of creativity.
>>> Whilst I agree that creativity does not work in straight lines or as a
>>> coherent progression I do not think there is such a thing as genius. As
I
>>> have already indicated, I have a lot of time for Newton's idea of
>>> team-work.
>>> I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
>>> Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour's of expanded and
>>> diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an
>>> instance
>>> of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and
>>> defined
>>> by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an
>>> essential
>>> or irreducible self - the self is more like a construction). In a sense
I
>>> find it difficult to identify what is in and what is out. As such, all
>>> our
>>> activities are more or less distributed and collective in nature. I do
>>> not
>>> see how genius can fit in that model.
>>>
>>
>> I think that in this yasmin discussion I want to push the question of
>> whether
>> work done in collaboration can display "genius" and I think it can- if we
>> mean
>> by genius major work that is not incremental in nature but in some way
>> recasts
>> and raises entirely new solutins and questions whether in the arts and
>> sciences
>>
>> what are the best examples we can cite of really interesting
>> art/science/technology
>> collaboration which displayed genius or really excellent work
>>
>> there are for example some very prominent 'couples' in our field where
the
>> work
>> is really first rate,but could never have been accomplished without the
>> team of
>> the two people- these probably dont rise to the level of 'genius' but
>> i think could
>> be one line or argument
>>
>> for instance;
>>
>> woody and steine vasulka
>> helen and newton harrions
>> christa sommerer and laurent mignoneau
>>
>>
>> can any one name other exceptional couples whose creative work
>> would be unthinkable without their collaboration ?
>>
>> roger
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
and
>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>
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>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
the
>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
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>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:27:56 +0100
From: Chris Fremantle <chris@fremantle.org>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <4A81399C.2010103@fremantle.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:24:20 +0100
From: "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <C6A759C4.2191F%s.biggs@eca.ac.uk<C6A759C4.2191F%25s.biggs@eca.ac.uk>
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

I think it salient here to point out that the main point of my argument, in
its original context, did not concern genius (a word that has been argued
over many times) but creativity. The core argument is that creativity is not
a quality or function of the individual alone but of social relationships
and groups. That is, creativity can be regarded as the expression of social
dynamics, something like the dark matter that constitutes our social
relationships and therefore ourselves. It could be argued, for instance,
that language, as both the means of communication and often the object of
communication (as in poetics), is a collective creation and something
instantiated and manipulated collectively. It is manifest as a process of
exchange. Each language act is therefore creative in and of itself and in
the process of exchange. Thus we create ourselves through the process of
exchange (in the performative).

Best

Simon

Simon Biggs
Research Professor
edinburgh college of art
s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk/circle/

simon@littlepig.org.uk
www.littlepig.org.uk
AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk

From: teoman madra <namoet2@gmail.com>
Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:14:07 -0700
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Jack Ox <jackox@comcast.net> wrote:

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
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Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number
SC009201

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:32:45 -0700
From: roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID:
<4fe4f0af0908101432x4dc3ed1u7c3e84349f452a10@mail.gmail.com>
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Simon

in your critiques of the concept of genius you state:

I do not think there is such a thing as genius. As I have already
indicated,
I have a lot of time for Newton's idea of team-work.
I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour's of expanded and
diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an instance
of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and defined
by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an essential
or irreducible self .

A contemporary example of diffused agency/distributed self is found of
course
in open source software development groups. Many of us think of
open source software development as a source of innovation and creativity
as compared to commercial development or very institutionalised contexts
but a recent article by Viktor Mayer=Schonberg in Science on
Can We Re Invent the Internet

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/325/5939/396

he points out that in general social network topologies are not
conducive to radical innovation- and he suggests that the value
of a 'node''s value in a social network is not proporitional to the
number of links (facebookers beware) but the connections to
disparate groups=which span 'structural holes' and enable
radical approaches= he argues that much peer produced code
is rarely altered except in an incremental manner= he suggests
that one needs to create incentives to form network structures
that, structurally, stimulate and enable innovation-and he suggests
some prescriptions

its an interesting thought that the actual 'structure' of the network
of a collaboration can in itself determine whether the collaboration
is inventive, and can make radical non incremental innovation

but it also higlights how even in team work, individuals can play
key roles in enabling radical innovation by a group= there are
organisational geniuses ?

which brings me to Nina Yankowitz comments on the emobilart
collaboration groups:- have added my comments in CAPS

roger

Nina says:
As an emobilart participant>> list some of my thoughts re:
collaborative projects / establishing good conditions for problem
solving.

1. Inviting prospective participants - distributing details of all
participants proposals and profiles at least one month in advance of
meeting, to ponder, can better prepare invited collaborators to make
efficient choices when deciding with whom to collaborate.

ONE OF THE STRENGTHS OF EMOBILART WAS THAT THE COLLABORATORS DID NOT
KNOW EACH OTHER
BEFORE THE FIRST WORKSHOP WHEN THE COLLABORATION TEAMS FORMED= BUT THE
LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME INDEED MADE THE GROUP FORMATION PROCESS PERHAPS
NOT AS GOOD AS IT COULD BE=AT THE SAME
TIME THE FACT THAT MOST OF THE GROUPS WERE ABLE TO COMPLETE A PROJECT=
TESTIFIES TO THE POWER OF THE COLLABORATION IMAGINATION DRIVE !

2. Clearly establishing a non-hierarchal relationship between all
participants and organizers, with special attention to this when
participants from each category are creating and exhibiting in the
same project.

I THINK WE WOULD AGREE THAT WE DIDNT THINK ENOUGH AHEAD OF TIME ABOUT
THE COLLABORATION
BETWEEN THE ORGANISERS THEMSELVES AND BETWEEN THE ORGANISERS/CURATORS
AND THE ARTISTS.
PERHAPS A RECOMMENDATION WOULD TO DO ACTUAL TRAINING IN COLLABORATIVE
TECHNIQUES=THESE ARE WIDELY USED IN THE BUSINESS WORLD FOR INSTANCE=
ACTUALLY TRAIN IN COLLABORATION TECHNIQUES

3. All members should, I believe, have equal access to all meetings
about the projects and networking meetings too, equally sharing in the
decision making process and the potential networking benefits that
these meetings can provide.

IN STRATEGIC ALLIANCE METHODOLOGY IN THE BUSINESS WORLD, IT IS KNOWN
THAT ONE MUST ESTABLISH THE CLEARLY ARTICULATED VALUES AND
METHODOLOGIES AHEAD OF TIME AND IN WRITING
= IN EMOBILART WE LEARNED BY DOING WHICH IS HIGH RISK !

4. I do believe the future, as I think Roger is suggesting, is in
collaborative pooling of resources.

A CLEAR PROBLEM WAS THE HUGE AMOUNT OF DONATED AND CONTRIBUTED
RESOURCES NEEDED TO COMPLETE THE PROJECTS. THE COLLABORATION TEAM
ITSELF WAS GROSSLY UNDERFUNDED=BUT IF WE HAD
SUBMITTED A PROPOSAL WITH THE TRUE COSTS IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE
BEEN FUNDED. CATCH 22

5. Whether small or large groups - formations need structure,
mutual clarification of goals, and how to best meet specific group
needs. Assumptions about how projects may get funded by participants
in respective groups can be problematic and would best be detailed
within each. Also addressing how grants can / should be fairly
disseminated if received when individuals apply for project funding
and are awarded?

PER MY DISCUSSION ABOVE RE OPEN SOURCE NETWORK STRUCTURES=YES=THE
STRUCTURE CAN DETERMINE WHAT KINDS OF OUTCOMES ARE POSSIBLE

6. Personal aspects - Although numerous snags abound when initially
cross-connecting myriad cultures, uncovering ingrained biases, intense
egos that non-cyborgs nurture, that we all succumb - I found flying
with my teams very valuable to my personal and spiritual growth and
growth for the future of the planet in general. I look forward to
more.

THE INTERPERSONAL TENSIONS ARE PERHAPS PART OF THE CONTEXT OF CREATIVE
FRICTION ? IT MIGHT
HAVE BEEN USEFUL TO HAVE A GROUP SOCIOLOGIST OR PSYCHOLOGIST ON THE TEAM !!

Nina (Yankowitz)

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:51:53 +0100
From: "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Creativity as social mind
To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <C6A76039.21924%s.biggs@eca.ac.uk<C6A76039.21924%25s.biggs@eca.ac.uk>
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Wittgenstein wrote:

It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental
activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity
of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand,
when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think
by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I
can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such
cases the mind thinks, I would only draw attention to the fact
you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a
different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be
the agent in writing.

If again we talk about the locality where thinking takes place
we have a right to say that this locality is the paper on which
we write or the mouth which speaks. And if we talk of the head
or the brain as the locality of thought, this is using the
'locality of thinking' in a different sense.[1]

-- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Preliminary studies for the
"Philosophical investigations".

The argument Wittgenstein is proposing here is that thinking is an activity
that might be located in all sorts of places other than the mind. He
suggests that mind itself might be little more than a metaphor, a conceptual
receptacle we can use so as to be able to identify where we subjectively do
things like thinking, talking, perceiving and feeling. Wittgenstein suggests
that the mind might not exist as anything more than metaphor or, that if it
does exist, it might exist in place(s) we do not expect.

I?d like to add to the places mind can exist the creative space that exists
between us all; the social relationships we forge and are forged by, through
our exchanges, whether large (a significant cultural intervention, for
example) or so small we are not aware anything is there at all. I would like
to think it is in the innumerable small things we share that we largely
exist, only being reminded of ourselves as a phenomenon of this process of
culturation when we encounter the big event (what might sometimes be called
genius ? a word I find unuseful). Through this view we might gain a more
profound understanding of what is often called popular culture but which
might be better characterised as of the same ilk as Fernando Ortiz?s concept
of transculturation.

Best

Simon

Simon Biggs
Research Professor
edinburgh college of art
s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk/circle/

simon@littlepig.org.uk
www.littlepig.org.uk
AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk

Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number
SC009201

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:29:44 +0100
From: Paul Brown <paul@paul-brown.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Creativity as social mind
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <38FC5DAE-F54D-46F7-B129-2F01FE5521B8@paul-brown.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I think Andy Clark's name has come up in this discussion before but
Simon's
comments remind me of his concept of the extended mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Clark
http://mymindonbooks.com/?p=815

Paul

On 11 Aug 2009, at 17:51, Simon Biggs wrote:

> Wittgenstein wrote:
>
> It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental
> activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity
> of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand,
> when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think
> by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I
> can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such
> cases the mind thinks, I would only draw attention to the fact
> you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a
> different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be
> the agent in writing.
>
> If again we talk about the locality where thinking takes place
> we have a right to say that this locality is the paper on which
> we write or the mouth which speaks. And if we talk of the head
> or the brain as the locality of thought, this is using the
> 'locality of thinking' in a different sense.[1]
>
> -- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Preliminary studies for the
> "Philosophical investigations".
>
> The argument Wittgenstein is proposing here is that thinking is an
> activity
> that might be located in all sorts of places other than the mind. He
> suggests that mind itself might be little more than a metaphor, a
> conceptual
> receptacle we can use so as to be able to identify where we
> subjectively do
> things like thinking, talking, perceiving and feeling. Wittgenstein
> suggests
> that the mind might not exist as anything more than metaphor or,
> that if it
> does exist, it might exist in place(s) we do not expect.
>
> I?d like to add to the places mind can exist the creative space that
> exists
> between us all; the social relationships we forge and are forged by,
> through
> our exchanges, whether large (a significant cultural intervention, for
> example) or so small we are not aware anything is there at all. I
> would like
> to think it is in the innumerable small things we share that we
> largely
> exist, only being reminded of ourselves as a phenomenon of this
> process of
> culturation when we encounter the big event (what might sometimes be
> called
> genius ? a word I find unuseful). Through this view we might gain a
> more
> profound understanding of what is often called popular culture but
> which
> might be better characterised as of the same ilk as Fernando Ortiz?s
> concept
> of transculturation.
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
> Research Professor
> edinburgh college of art
> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>
> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> www.littlepig.org.uk
> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>
>
>
> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland,
> number SC009201
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
> mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
> the page.
>
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
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>
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> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.

====
Paul Brown - based in the UK July - Sept 2009
mailto:paul@paul-brown.com == http://www.paul-brown.com
UK Mobile +44 (0)794 104 8228 == USA fax +1 309 216 9900
Skype paul-g-brown
====
Visiting Professor - Sussex University
http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/ccnr/research/creativity.html
====

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:58:24 -0400
From: Joseph Ingoldsby <landscapemosaics@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <C6A77DE0.2B43%landscapemosaics@verizon.net<C6A77DE0.2B43%25landscapemosaics@verizon.net>
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Roger,
It is interesting to discuss the concept of the genius, whether working in
isolation or in collaboration. One of the critical elements is that of
patronage, whether papal, monarchical, governmental, institutional or
corporate and the concept of the collective- the Cathedral builders, the
Apollo Space program vs. the individual- Leonardo. Buckminster Fuller, whom
I would call visionaries. Within a collective, shared talents join for a
common good. The individual works as a free agent and may attract a
following within academic circles or disciplines, as Frank Lloyd Wright.

There are individuals who join forces to balance their strengths to focus on
critical issues. In 1994 writer Nancy Jack Todd and biologist Dr. John Todd
wrote of their explorations, experiments and groundbreaking work in From
Eco-Cities to Living Machines. Following in the tradition of the German
Rudolph Steiner?s focus on the study of nature, which eventually spawned
permaculture, the John Todd family began designing biological means of
purifying water within an experimental center called Ocean Arks and
developing the precepts of biological design. Rigorous observation of
natural processes led to creative, innovative and successful designs for
green living. The works are disseminated through collaborations with cities
and agencies and the word spread through writing, teaching, lectures and
demonstrations across the world. Yasmin readers may be interested in
reading the book, which outlines visionary actions taken by individuals and
groups across the globe, from Morocco to New York City to advance a common
good in a network of shared solutions for different landscape conditions.
http://www.oceanarks.org/

Joseph Ingoldsby
Landscape Mosaics

http://www.oceanarks.org/

On 8/10/09 5:32 PM, "roger malina" <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> Simon
>
> in your critiques of the concept of genius you state:
>
> I do not think there is such a thing as genius. As I have already
indicated,
> I have a lot of time for Newton's idea of team-work.
> I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
> Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour's of expanded and
> diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an
instance
> of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and defined
> by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an
essential
> or irreducible self .
>
> A contemporary example of diffused agency/distributed self is found of
course
> in open source software development groups. Many of us think of
> open source software development as a source of innovation and creativity
> as compared to commercial development or very institutionalised contexts
> but a recent article by Viktor Mayer=Schonberg in Science on
> Can We Re Invent the Internet
>
> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/325/5939/396
>
> he points out that in general social network topologies are not
> conducive to radical innovation- and he suggests that the value
> of a 'node''s value in a social network is not proporitional to the
> number of links (facebookers beware) but the connections to
> disparate groups=which span 'structural holes' and enable
> radical approaches= he argues that much peer produced code
> is rarely altered except in an incremental manner= he suggests
> that one needs to create incentives to form network structures
> that, structurally, stimulate and enable innovation-and he suggests
> some prescriptions
>
> its an interesting thought that the actual 'structure' of the network
> of a collaboration can in itself determine whether the collaboration
> is inventive, and can make radical non incremental innovation
>
> but it also higlights how even in team work, individuals can play
> key roles in enabling radical innovation by a group= there are
> organisational geniuses ?
>
> which brings me to Nina Yankowitz comments on the emobilart
> collaboration groups:- have added my comments in CAPS
>
> roger
>
>
> Nina says:
> As an emobilart participant>> list some of my thoughts re:
> collaborative projects / establishing good conditions for problem
> solving.
>
> 1. Inviting prospective participants - distributing details of all
> participants proposals and profiles at least one month in advance of
> meeting, to ponder, can better prepare invited collaborators to make
> efficient choices when deciding with whom to collaborate.
>
> ONE OF THE STRENGTHS OF EMOBILART WAS THAT THE COLLABORATORS DID NOT
> KNOW EACH OTHER
> BEFORE THE FIRST WORKSHOP WHEN THE COLLABORATION TEAMS FORMED= BUT THE
> LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME INDEED MADE THE GROUP FORMATION PROCESS PERHAPS
> NOT AS GOOD AS IT COULD BE=AT THE SAME
> TIME THE FACT THAT MOST OF THE GROUPS WERE ABLE TO COMPLETE A PROJECT=
> TESTIFIES TO THE POWER OF THE COLLABORATION IMAGINATION DRIVE !
>
> 2. Clearly establishing a non-hierarchal relationship between all
> participants and organizers, with special attention to this when
> participants from each category are creating and exhibiting in the
> same project.
>
> I THINK WE WOULD AGREE THAT WE DIDNT THINK ENOUGH AHEAD OF TIME ABOUT
> THE COLLABORATION
> BETWEEN THE ORGANISERS THEMSELVES AND BETWEEN THE ORGANISERS/CURATORS
> AND THE ARTISTS.
> PERHAPS A RECOMMENDATION WOULD TO DO ACTUAL TRAINING IN COLLABORATIVE
> TECHNIQUES=THESE ARE WIDELY USED IN THE BUSINESS WORLD FOR INSTANCE=
> ACTUALLY TRAIN IN COLLABORATION TECHNIQUES
>
> 3. All members should, I believe, have equal access to all meetings
> about the projects and networking meetings too, equally sharing in the
> decision making process and the potential networking benefits that
> these meetings can provide.
>
> IN STRATEGIC ALLIANCE METHODOLOGY IN THE BUSINESS WORLD, IT IS KNOWN
> THAT ONE MUST ESTABLISH THE CLEARLY ARTICULATED VALUES AND
> METHODOLOGIES AHEAD OF TIME AND IN WRITING
> = IN EMOBILART WE LEARNED BY DOING WHICH IS HIGH RISK !
>
> 4. I do believe the future, as I think Roger is suggesting, is in
> collaborative pooling of resources.
>
> A CLEAR PROBLEM WAS THE HUGE AMOUNT OF DONATED AND CONTRIBUTED
> RESOURCES NEEDED TO COMPLETE THE PROJECTS. THE COLLABORATION TEAM
> ITSELF WAS GROSSLY UNDERFUNDED=BUT IF WE HAD
> SUBMITTED A PROPOSAL WITH THE TRUE COSTS IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE
> BEEN FUNDED. CATCH 22
>
> 5. Whether small or large groups - formations need structure,
> mutual clarification of goals, and how to best meet specific group
> needs. Assumptions about how projects may get funded by participants
> in respective groups can be problematic and would best be detailed
> within each. Also addressing how grants can / should be fairly
> disseminated if received when individuals apply for project funding
> and are awarded?
>
> PER MY DISCUSSION ABOVE RE OPEN SOURCE NETWORK STRUCTURES=YES=THE
> STRUCTURE CAN DETERMINE WHAT KINDS OF OUTCOMES ARE POSSIBLE
>
> 6. Personal aspects - Although numerous snags abound when initially
> cross-connecting myriad cultures, uncovering ingrained biases, intense
> egos that non-cyborgs nurture, that we all succumb - I found flying
> with my teams very valuable to my personal and spiritual growth and
> growth for the future of the planet in general. I look forward to
> more.
>
> THE INTERPERSONAL TENSIONS ARE PERHAPS PART OF THE CONTEXT OF CREATIVE
> FRICTION ? IT MIGHT
> HAVE BEEN USEFUL TO HAVE A GROUP SOCIOLOGIST OR PSYCHOLOGIST ON THE TEAM
!!
>
> Nina (Yankowitz)
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
In
> the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
>
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
your
> e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
Digest
> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 00:59:11 +0100
From: "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Creativity as social mind
To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <C6A7C45F.21936%s.biggs@eca.ac.uk<C6A7C45F.21936%25s.biggs@eca.ac.uk>
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Andy is Professor of Logic and Metaphysics here at Edinburgh and he has
close links with the art college so I am very familiar with his work. To
some extent it is relevant to what I am arguing but our points of departure
are profoundly different. Andy is coming out of the Anglo-American
rationalist tradition of philosophy and very much involved in debates around
the neurophysiology of mind. I am taking my references from people like
Foucault, Ortiz and Latour whose concerns are more with socially situated
ontologies of mind. However, what is interesting is that whilst these
perspectives have such differrent sources they do connect up further down
the road. The arguments would tend to strengthen one another whilst putting
the sources for each under a critical microscope.

Best

Simon

Simon Biggs
Research Professor
edinburgh college of art
s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk/circle/

simon@littlepig.org.uk
www.littlepig.org.uk
AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk

From: Paul Brown <paul@paul-brown.com>
Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:29:44 +0100
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Creativity as social mind

I think Andy Clark's name has come up in this discussion before but
Simon's
comments remind me of his concept of the extended mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Clark
http://mymindonbooks.com/?p=815

Paul

On 11 Aug 2009, at 17:51, Simon Biggs wrote:

_______________________________________________
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Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.

Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number
SC009201

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:02:47 +0100
From: "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius
To: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <C6A851D7.2194A%s.biggs@eca.ac.uk<C6A851D7.2194A%25s.biggs@eca.ac.uk>
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Hi Roger

I think the open source software movement is an excellent example of
collective creativity. It is interesting that this and other similar ways of
working and creating have developed. There is a zeitgeist which seems to
continue to gain momentum, a social understanding.

Distributed agency is clearly linked to this and as we develop more powerful
technologies that function to augment our capacity to perceive or act upon
the world the better we understand that agency need not be, nor has ever
been, restricted to the human. I am not familiar with Mayer-Schonberg?s work
but find the insight that most peer to peer work is incremental in character
interesting. That has not been my own experience of collective working
(committee drafting of a policy document is another example), where sweeping
changes can occur to how a document or other artefact is structured and
oriented. This capacity for paradigm shifts in collective working is one of
the more exciting outcomes of learning to see with other?s eyes. The kind of
working that Mayer-Schonberg describes sounds less like intensive collective
activity and more like networked individual activity ? which of course is a
completely valid way of working but is very different.

You mention models of working employed in business and industry. As you are
aware, these models have found their way into and have been further
augmented within other large scale institutional contexts, such as
education. A lot of research today involves numerous individuals and
departments across diverse institutions, often in different countries,
working together on complex problems. How the work is organised is critical
to its success and an important part of such work is determining which
organisational model will be employed. It is a matter of finding those
structures and methods most likely to deliver against the aims of the
project. Many research teams now incorporate experts in such processes, from
anthropology, psychology, economics and other relevant areas.

The eMobil-art project you describe sounds like an example of this type of
working that could have benefitted from the involvement of such an expert.
You are aware of the art/science collaborations that Arts Council England
and the Arts and Humanities Research Council initiated in the early 2000?s.
I had been involved in a number of similar initiatives like this over the
years and what made this particular series of projects interesting and
successful was the role played by expert facilitators who were embedded in
the the trans-disciplinary research teams. This did cost money but the
outcomes more than justified it. As a result of the confidence built in
those early experiments in placing a few artists in research environments
there is now an annual programme of such publicly funded projects across the
UK. Numerous artists and scientists have benefitted from the opportunity to
work together in an environment that is supportive and able to focus
appropriately on the aims of each project. That applicants to the programme,
from all sides, have to articulate from the outset how they will organise
their work and what methods they will employ, justified against their stated
aims and objectives, helps here. However, this highly calculated way of
working does not suit everyone, at least all the time. It might be nice if a
higher tolerance was set to allow for productive failure. Research/practice
should be fun and the open source model does seem to sustain this option.

Best

Simon

Simon Biggs
Research Professor
edinburgh college of art
s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk/circle/

simon@littlepig.org.uk
www.littlepig.org.uk
AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk

From: roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:32:45 -0700
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] collective genius

Simon

in your critiques of the concept of genius you state:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/325/5939/396

but it also higlights how even in team work, individuals can play
key roles in enabling radical innovation by a group= there are
organisational geniuses ?

which brings me to Nina Yankowitz comments on the emobilart
collaboration groups:- have added my comments in CAPS

roger

Nina says:
As an emobilart participant>> list some of my thoughts re:
collaborative projects / establishing good conditions for problem
solving.

4. I do believe the future, as I think Roger is suggesting, is in
collaborative pooling of resources.

PER MY DISCUSSION ABOVE RE OPEN SOURCE NETWORK STRUCTURES=YES=THE
STRUCTURE CAN DETERMINE WHAT KINDS OF OUTCOMES ARE POSSIBLE

THE INTERPERSONAL TENSIONS ARE PERHAPS PART OF THE CONTEXT OF CREATIVE
FRICTION ? IT MIGHT
HAVE BEEN USEFUL TO HAVE A GROUP SOCIOLOGIST OR PSYCHOLOGIST ON THE TEAM !!

Nina (Yankowitz)
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.

Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number
SC009201

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:57:51 +0100
From: Chris Fremantle <chris@fremantle.org>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Collective Genius
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <4A82A02F.4040707@fremantle.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

At Roger's suggestion I am resending this since it apparently appeared blank

I looked up Genius in Skeat's Etymological Dictionary and it says
genius, inborn faculty. tutelar spirit of anyone. 'inborn nature'
allied to genus.

Not sure whether that helps at all.

David Haley uses the following definition of art which is more useful,
though it bypasses the individual/group issue completely

Re-invention
Living things need to re-invent themselves to stay alive. As dissipative
structures, far
from equilibrium, our cells know how to reproduce through autopoeisis,
or self
making. Now, as an artist, I find the idea of this capacity for making,
or creating very
interesting. Indeed, the root of the word Art is rt. Coming from the
Indian Rg Vedas,
it means the dynamic process by which the whole cosmos continues to
create itself,
virtuously. (from The Next Generation, performance at CIWEM)

Tim Ingold and Elizabeth Hallam (anthropologists) in their introduction
to Creativity and Improvisation argue that we construct our experience
of creativity based on which way we are looking in time: If we are
looking back on events then we tend to see innovation and sharp
discontinuities; but if we are looking forward we see improvisation.

Chris

--
Chris Fremantle

chris@fremantle.org
+44 (0)7714 203016

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:12:40 +0100
From: Paul Brown <paul@paul-brown.com>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Creativity as social mind
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Message-ID: <B280890D-C688-4B42-BD39-3D3563414976@paul-brown.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed;
delsp=yes

Simon - a predictable response :) [so here's one from me]

As you know I'm happier with the British Analytical tradition and more
sympathetic to Andy's work rather than what I see as the platitudinous
imponderables of the Continental School.

However I agree it is interesting that these two strands become
adjacent as they develop. I'm interested in discovering links that
bridge what we have become used to calling Modernist and Postmodern
thought like this. Another good one is Varela & Kauffman's
application of Spencer Brown's calculus of indications (essentially a
boundary grammar) to self-reference and autopoiesis. (Form Dynamics,
J. Social Biol. Struct. 1980 3, 171-206).

Best
Paul

On 12 Aug 2009, at 00:59, Simon Biggs wrote:

> Andy is Professor of Logic and Metaphysics here at Edinburgh and he
> has
> close links with the art college so I am very familiar with his
> work. To
> some extent it is relevant to what I am arguing but our points of
> departure
> are profoundly different. Andy is coming out of the Anglo-American
> rationalist tradition of philosophy and very much involved in
> debates around
> the neurophysiology of mind. I am taking my references from people
> like
> Foucault, Ortiz and Latour whose concerns are more with socially
> situated
> ontologies of mind. However, what is interesting is that whilst these
> perspectives have such differrent sources they do connect up further
> down
> the road. The arguments would tend to strengthen one another whilst
> putting
> the sources for each under a critical microscope.
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
> Simon Biggs
> Research Professor
> edinburgh college of art
> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>
> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> www.littlepig.org.uk
> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>
>
>
> From: Paul Brown <paul@paul-brown.com>
> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:29:44 +0100
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Creativity as social mind
>
> I think Andy Clark's name has come up in this discussion before but
> Simon's
> comments remind me of his concept of the extended mind:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Clark
> http://mymindonbooks.com/?p=815
>
> Paul
>
> On 11 Aug 2009, at 17:51, Simon Biggs wrote:
>
>> Wittgenstein wrote:
>>
>> It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental
>> activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity
>> of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand,
>> when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think
>> by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I
>> can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such
>> cases the mind thinks, I would only draw attention to the fact
>> you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a
>> different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be
>> the agent in writing.
>>
>> If again we talk about the locality where thinking takes place
>> we have a right to say that this locality is the paper on which
>> we write or the mouth which speaks. And if we talk of the head
>> or the brain as the locality of thought, this is using the
>> 'locality of thinking' in a different sense.[1]
>>
>> -- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Preliminary studies for the
>> "Philosophical investigations".
>>
>> The argument Wittgenstein is proposing here is that thinking is an
>> activity
>> that might be located in all sorts of places other than the mind. He
>> suggests that mind itself might be little more than a metaphor, a
>> conceptual
>> receptacle we can use so as to be able to identify where we
>> subjectively do
>> things like thinking, talking, perceiving and feeling. Wittgenstein
>> suggests
>> that the mind might not exist as anything more than metaphor or,
>> that if it
>> does exist, it might exist in place(s) we do not expect.
>>
>> I?d like to add to the places mind can exist the creative space that
>> exists
>> between us all; the social relationships we forge and are forged by,
>> through
>> our exchanges, whether large (a significant cultural intervention,
>> for
>> example) or so small we are not aware anything is there at all. I
>> would like
>> to think it is in the innumerable small things we share that we
>> largely
>> exist, only being reminded of ourselves as a phenomenon of this
>> process of
>> culturation when we encounter the big event (what might sometimes be
>> called
>> genius ? a word I find unuseful). Through this view we might gain a
>> more
>> profound understanding of what is often called popular culture but
>> which
>> might be better characterised as of the same ilk as Fernando Ortiz?s
>> concept
>> of transculturation.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> Simon Biggs
>> Research Professor
>> edinburgh college of art
>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
>> www.eca.ac.uk
>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>>
>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
>> www.littlepig.org.uk
>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>>
>>
>>
>> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland,
>> number SC009201
>>
>>
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> ====
> Paul Brown - based in the UK July - Sept 2009
> mailto:paul@paul-brown.com == http://www.paul-brown.com
> UK Mobile +44 (0)794 104 8228 == USA fax +1 309 216 9900
> Skype paul-g-brown
> ====
> Visiting Professor - Sussex University
> http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/ccnr/research/creativity.html
> ====
>
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>
> ====
> Paul Brown - based in the UK July - Sept 2009
> mailto:paul@paul-brown.com == http://www.paul-brown.com
> UK Mobile +44 (0)794 104 8228 == USA fax +1 309 216 9900
> Skype paul-g-brown
> ====
> Visiting Professor - Sussex University
> http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/ccnr/research/creativity.html
> ====
>
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Wednesday, August 12, 2009

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Collective Genius: Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 43, Issue 1

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