distances to pluck what may best express my meaning - I'll try to spare the
travel and list some of my thoughts re: collaborative projects /
establishing good conditions for problem solving.1. Inviting
prospective participants -
distributing details of all participants proposals and profiles at least one
month in advance of meeting, to ponder, can better prepare invited
collaborators to make efficient choices when deciding with whom to
collaborate.
2. Clearly establishing a non-hierarchal relationship between all
participants and organizers, with special attention to
this when participants from each category are creating and exhibiting
in the same project.
3. All members should, I believe, have equal access to all meetings about
the projects and networking meetings too, equally sharing in the decision
making process and the potential networking benefits that these meetings can
provide.
4. I do believe the future, as I think Roger is suggesting, is in
collaborative pooling of resources.
5. Whether small or large groups - formations need structure,
mutual clarification of goals, and how to best meet specific group needs.
Assumptions about how projects may get funded by participants in respective
groups can be problematic and would best be detailed within each. Also
addressing how grants can / should be fairly disseminated if received when
individuals apply for project funding and are awarded?
6. Personal aspects - Although numerous snags abound when initially
cross-connecting myriad cultures, uncovering ingrained biases, intense egos
that non-cyborgs nurture, that we all succumb - I found flying with my teams
very valuable to my personal and spiritual growth and growth for the future
of the planet in general. I look forward to more.
Nina (Yankowitz)
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 9:20 AM, <
yasmin_discussions-request@estia.media.uoa.gr> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. august discussion on yasmin: collective genius ? (roger malina)
> 2. Re: cyborgs skin and programmers (stephane dumas)
> 3. Ethnic Cyborg (ekmel ertan)
> 4. Re: cyborgs skin and programmers (Francis Wittenberger)
> 5. Re: ethnic cyborg (Avi Rosen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:23:33 -0700
> From: roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] august discussion on yasmin: collective
> genius ?
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Message-ID:
> <4fe4f0af0907311123k4b3adc97k7b6d72dba1e56de2@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Yasminers
>
> this is the last day of our cyborg discussion
>
> alec, francis and simon have started a discussion on creativity
> and genius= this is a large topic with hundreds of books and articles
> and i am not sure how we can develop new ideas in this area=
> I personally didnt find the elizabeth gilbert ted talk very enlightening
>
> one thing i picked up on in simon's comments, is that indeed today
> so much problem solving and creative activity is developed in groups,
> teams, collaborations
>
> we are faced with many hard problems in our world= and it is very
> unlikely that an individual ;'genius' is what is needed- to transform
> our societies into ones that are sustainable/ and whose impact
> on our climate and environment is not catastrophic= we need
> systemic social change- elsewhere i have called this the
> problem of the 'hard humanities'= and one of the things that
> i think makes art-science collaboration urgent today is that
> for these hard problems we have to couple problem solving
> in the technosciences with social systems on large scales=
> artists and scientists must figure out how to collaborate
>
> so perhaps we need to shift the question from genius to
> the question of how we encourage good problem solving
> communities, (or question askin communities)
>
> there are now hundreds of examples of web based problem
> solving communities= from Innocentive http://www.innocentive.com/
> or Bricolabs http://www.bricolabs.net/ to name just two but i am sure
> yasminers can suggest other examples
>
> so to pick up on simon's argument re distributed agency= i suspect
> that there is still room for the concept of 'genius' or at least how
> one creates the conditions for exceptionally good problem asking
> and solving
>
> a number of yasminers have been involved in the emobilart project
> http://www.media.uoa.gr/~charitos/emobilart/
>
> European Mobile Lab for Interactive Media Artists (e-MobiLArt) is a
> project tailored around the process
> of collaboratively creating interactive installation artworks. Such
> mediated environments may
> involve the use of ubiquitous computing, communication networks and
> mobile or locative media technologies.
> Participants in this project will be artists and scientists who are
> active in creating interactive media art
> or pursuing innovative interdisciplinary research and wish to
> collaborate in order to create interactive media artworks.
>
> The project involved bringing together 35 artists and researchers, who
> had never worked together,
> three workshops were held (in greece, finland and austria) = 13 teams
> developed that each
> created their own installation art works that were exhibited in greece
> and will be shown in poland
> in the fall
>
> as an observer of the process= it raises many questions about how one
> creates conditions for innovative
> teams to emerge, perhaps some of the emobilart participants can
> contribute to this discussion=it was
> a painful process, one that is being carried out in hundreds of
> communities of practice worldwide
>
>
> do yasminers have examples of interesting collaborative projects in
> the art-science area ?
> which ones demonstrate 'genius' or exceptional outcomes ?
>
>
> roger
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Alec Robertson <alecr@dmu.ac.uk>
> Date: Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I would like to recommend a TED Talk by Elizabeth Gilbert on 'genius'
> related indirectly to the posts below at
>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html
>
> "Elizabeth Gilbert muses on the impossible things we expect from
> artists and geniuses -- and shares the radical idea that, instead of
> the rare person "being" a genius, all of us "have" a genius. It's a
> funny, personal and surprisingly moving talk."
>
> Alec Robertson
> www.4d-dynamics.net
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr on behalf of
> Francis Wittenberger
> Sent: Fri 31/07/2009 12:26
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
>
> hi,
>
> i am wondering:
>
> how much/what/which human/bio/other parts/capabilities must be present in
> a cyborg 'mixture' in order for an organism to be called 'cyborg'?
>
> must the 'parts' be physically adjoining the body or could those also be
> remote/distributed?
>
> must a cyborg eventually have a body? or could an evolved (human?)
> consciousness,
> residing (say, 'on the net' or in space/ether) be called a cyborg? (it
> is has a human consciousness and some type of energy as 'body parts'
>
> if a (say, a male) cyborg gained (say, a female) artificial sexual
> organs would 'it' then be a he/she or an 'it' ?
>
> can an addition alone render a bio-organism be cyborg? any minimal
> requirements as of the extent and or physical/virtual properties of the
> addition?
>
> are cyborg eligible for Inheritance? (what part of a human is eligible
> for Inheritance? is it the body? life itself? the notion of 'self'?)
> what if his/her/it's sense-of-self has evolved/changed or removed?
>
>
> - -
>
> "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Which brings us to your point about genius and the jump of creativity.
> > Whilst I agree that creativity does not work in straight lines or as a
> > coherent progression I do not think there is such a thing as genius. As I
> > have already indicated, I have a lot of time for Newton's idea of
> team-work.
> > I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
> > Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour's of expanded and
> > diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an
> instance
> > of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and
> defined
> > by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an
> essential
> > or irreducible self - the self is more like a construction). In a sense I
> > find it difficult to identify what is in and what is out. As such, all
> our
> > activities are more or less distributed and collective in nature. I do
> not
> > see how genius can fit in that model.
>
> Simon - holding a firm grip over a notion such as 'there is no thing
> such as genius' simply because it does not fit into your will cause
> the occasional
> appearances of a genius to be disregarded thus we are all forced into
> the linear progression of scientific research.
>
> isn't it a pity to give up on our chance to 'jump' just because a model
> is too narrow?
>
> - -
>
> best regards,
> francis
>
>
> > Hi Simon, and everybody
> >
> > Your trail about cyborg flesh and robots' skin seems very interesting
> > to me. As I said in a previous post, I think one fruitfull way to
> > explore cyborgs is to investigate what kind of body they are. This
> > body question is not just a matter of envelope giving a look to more
> > or less sophisticated abstract programs. Nor is it the mere mechanics
> > allowing a robot to enact the programs it is supposed to perform.
> >
> > The embodied interface is more than just a thin and smooth
> > interchangable skin, like in most 3D simulations. Skin is a surface
> > producing images, but it is also part of a body. Its thickness is even
> > more important than its surface. I think developing interfaces'
> > thickness and even roughness is an important task, parallel to the
> > task of making them smooth and fluid for better interaction. This is a
> > field where engeneers, programmers and artists meet.
> >
> > David Cronenberg's vision, in the 1990s, was mindfull. In "Existenz",
> > he imagined "bio ports", organic connections between machines and
> > bodies. "Naked Lunch" is the story of a writer (William Burroughs) who
> > looks for the "black meat" extracted from centipedes from Amazonia.
> > There is a strong connection between this drug and his writing. His
> > type writer mutates into a beetle. Here, human language, machine and
> > animal body ("meat") fuse or mutate into each others.
> >
> > Beyond the SF aspect, what about "cyborg flesh"?
> >
> > Best
> >
> > St?phane
> >
> >
> > stephane dumas
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 02:08:35 +0200
> From: stephane dumas <stedumas@free.fr>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Message-ID: <50721E79-96B6-4E56-BB0C-28A9529ADE07@free.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed;
> delsp=yes
>
> Hi
>
> Here are some reactions to some interesting questions :
>
> > hi,
> >
> > i am wondering:
> >
> > how much/what/which human/bio/other parts/capabilities must be
> > present in
> > a cyborg 'mixture' in order for an organism to be called 'cyborg'?
> >
> "Cyborg" is an image for technical and biological mutation coming
> together. Every day's little mutations may contribute to a "cyborg
> condition" as long as they question a monolithic "human condition". Of
> course, "animal condition" may as well question it.
>
> > must the 'parts' be physically adjoining the body or could those
> > also be
> > remote/distributed?
> >
>
> A "body" is not a totalisation. >It can be fragmented.
>
> > must a cyborg eventually have a body? or could an evolved (human?)
> > consciousness,
> > residing (say, 'on the net' or in space/ether) be called a cyborg? (it
> > is has a human consciousness and some type of energy as 'body parts'
> >
>
> If "counciousness" is a psychic entity, you may of course question its
> embodiment process and wether it would exist without any embodiment.
> But can you name any "consciousness" you have met which is not somehow
> embodied ? Does that exist apart from a totaly idealistic and abstract
> point of vew ?
> The net has many aspects of a body. It is not proved it has a
> counciousness by itself, but it certainly is a media for sharing
> counciousness.
> And "space" is the place for bodies.
>
>
> > if a (say, a male) cyborg gained (say, a female) artificial sexual
> > organs would 'it' then be a he/she or an 'it' ?
>
> And would "it" then have desires, maybe mate and, why not, reproduct ?
> By the way, don't forget that some "human" "he" think of themselves as
> "she" and vice versa. And sometimes as "it".
>
>
> >
> > can an addition alone render a bio-organism be cyborg? any minimal
> > requirements as of the extent and or physical/virtual properties of
> > the
> > addition?
>
> If this "addition" does not create a new body, and , therefore, a
> different "counciousness", then it seems to me that it is rather some
> kind of a gadget rather than a new entity (call it "cyborg" or
> whatever you want).
>
> >
> > are cyborg eligible for Inheritance? (what part of a human is eligible
> > for Inheritance? is it the body? life itself? the notion of 'self'?)
> > what if his/her/it's sense-of-self has evolved/changed or removed?
>
> Again, the mind-body problem, transfered to genetics (biological
> evolution)-epigenetics (cultural evolution).
> As long as the "sense of self" is concerned : is it given and simply
> "inherited", or is it under permanent construction and deconstruction ?
> Now, if the "sense of self" is totaly "removed", does that mean a pure
> mechanistic state? or, rather, what Buddhism calls "nirvana" ?
>
> >
> >
> I would like to recommend a TED Talk by Elizabeth Gilbert on 'genius'
> related indirectly to the posts below at
> http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html
> "Elizabeth Gilbert muses on the impossible things we expect from
> artists and geniuses -- and shares the radical idea that, instead of
> the rare person "being" a genius, all of us "have" a genius. It's a
> funny, personal and surprisingly moving talk."
> I
>
> As far as Elizabeth Gilbert's TED Talk on 'genius', mentioned in
> another recent post, is concerned : I think Mrs. Gilbert performs as a
> good coach for training emotional inteligence, nicely doing her job
> for public entertainment. She is a fine, emotional, lively and
> cultivated performer. But it seems that her purpose is to turn
> "Socrates daimon" into a socially acceptable relation and into a
> positive psychic experience. Is this the same "daimon" which pushed
> Socrates towards his social and physical death amongst the Athenian
> society ?
>
> Best
>
> St?phane Dumas
>
>
>
> > "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Which brings us to your point about genius and the jump of
> >> creativity.
> >> Whilst I agree that creativity does not work in straight lines or
> >> as a
> >> coherent progression I do not think there is such a thing as
> >> genius. As I
> >> have already indicated, I have a lot of time for Newton?s idea of
> >> team-work.
> >> I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
> >> Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour?s of expanded
> >> and
> >> diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an
> >> instance
> >> of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and
> >> defined
> >> by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an
> >> essential
> >> or irreducible self ? the self is more like a construction). In a
> >> sense I
> >> find it difficult to identify what is in and what is out. As such,
> >> all our
> >> activities are more or less distributed and collective in nature. I
> >> do not
> >> see how genius can fit in that model.
> >
> > Simon - holding a firm grip over a notion such as 'there is no thing
> > such as genius' simply because it does not fit into your will cause
> > the occasional
> > appearances of a genius to be disregarded thus we are all forced into
> > the linear progression of scientific research.
> >
> > isn't it a pity to give up on our chance to 'jump' just because a
> > model
> > is too narrow?
> >
> > - -
> >
> > best regards,
> > francis
> >
> >
> >> Hi Simon, and everybody
> >>
> >> Your trail about cyborg flesh and robots' skin seems very interesting
> >> to me. As I said in a previous post, I think one fruitfull way to
> >> explore cyborgs is to investigate what kind of body they are. This
> >> body question is not just a matter of envelope giving a look to more
> >> or less sophisticated abstract programs. Nor is it the mere mechanics
> >> allowing a robot to enact the programs it is supposed to perform.
> >>
> >> The embodied interface is more than just a thin and smooth
> >> interchangable skin, like in most 3D simulations. Skin is a surface
> >> producing images, but it is also part of a body. Its thickness is
> >> even
> >> more important than its surface. I think developing interfaces'
> >> thickness and even roughness is an important task, parallel to the
> >> task of making them smooth and fluid for better interaction. This
> >> is a
> >> field where engeneers, programmers and artists meet.
> >>
> >> David Cronenberg's vision, in the 1990s, was mindfull. In "Existenz",
> >> he imagined "bio ports", organic connections between machines and
> >> bodies. "Naked Lunch" is the story of a writer (William Burroughs)
> >> who
> >> looks for the "black meat" extracted from centipedes from Amazonia.
> >> There is a strong connection between this drug and his writing. His
> >> type writer mutates into a beetle. Here, human language, machine and
> >> animal body ("meat") fuse or mutate into each others.
> >>
> >> Beyond the SF aspect, what about "cyborg flesh"?
> >>
> >> Best
> >>
> >> St?phane
> >>
> >>
> >> stephane dumas
> >>
> >> ESAAD, Paris
> >> stephanedumas.net (under constr.)
> >> stedumas@free.fr
> >>
> >> Le 27 juil. 09 ? 18:16, Simon Biggs a ?crit :
> >>
> >>> Thanks Alan
> >>>
> >>> You are lucky to work in the corridor you do. There is so much
> >>> history and
> >>> exciting current work going on there!
> >>>
> >>> I have a suspicion that any approach that might interest your
> >>> colleague
> >>> would be focused on affect in computing and robotics. As such, I
> >>> suspect she
> >>> is as interested in how people perceive the behaviour of robots as
> >>> she is in
> >>> the computing and engineering side of the systems involved.
> >>>
> >>> Given that the original post in this thread concerned a project to
> >>> develop
> >>> some sort of artistic robot focused on digital skin (I think this
> >>> was the
> >>> original thread) then it might be she could be interested in looking
> >>> at how
> >>> different physical envelopes might be employed on a number of robots
> >>> and to
> >>> undertake a study on how people apprehend and react to that.
> >>>
> >>> Is this the right sort of direction?
> >>>
> >>> If so I can see why a scientist, especially one interested in HCI,
> >>> would be
> >>> interested in this. However, to reverse your challenge ? how many
> >>> artists
> >>> would be interested in this?
> >>>
> >>> If I remember correctly you and I have a history with cyborg flesh
> >>> related
> >>> things ;)
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Simon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Simon Biggs
> >>> Research Professor
> >>> edinburgh college of art
> >>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> >>> www.eca.ac.uk
> >>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> >>>
> >>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> >>> www.littlepig.org.uk
> >>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: Alan Blackwell <afb21@cam.ac.uk>
> >>> Reply-To: <Alan.Blackwell@cl.cam.ac.uk>, YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> >>> <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> >>> Date: 27 Jul 2009 15:40:13 +0100
> >>> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I've enjoyed Ernest and Simon's contributions, and wondered, as I
> >>> read
> >>> them, just how many readers of this list do have sufficient coding
> >>> expertise to undertake a project on this scale?
> >>>
> >>> So that got me to wondering - there are many skilled programmers in
> >>> the
> >>> world - they just don't read this list. How do we get them engaged
> >>> in
> >>> projects like this?
> >>>
> >>> In fact, there is a skilled robot programmer just down the hall from
> >>> me,
> >>> who already works on programming facial expressions for robots. But
> >>> she
> >>> doesn't read this list. Why not? Because I don't think she is
> >>> interested in
> >>> the issues that this list discusses.
> >>>
> >>> So here is an interesting experiment/challenge ...
> >>>
> >>> Is there anyone on the list who thinks they could present this
> >>> project to
> >>> my student in a way that would make her interested in working on
> >>> it? I
> >>> would be happy to pass on a proposal like that under controlled
> >>> circumstances, in order to assess the way she responds to it. I
> >>> think that
> >>> the nature of her response might well cast light on the original
> >>> questioner's post.
> >>>
> >>> You'd probably want to know a little about her, so here is her web
> >>> page:
> >>> http://www.roboticschick.org/
> >>>
> >>> Of course, you're more than welcome to contact her directly, and see
> >>> what
> >>> happens. My prediction is that she would either ignore the email, or
> >>> be
> >>> initially polite followed by a brush-off. If you do want me to
> >>> provide a
> >>> slightly more detailed account of her response, I'd be happy to
> >>> collect
> >>> this in the name of research.
> >>>
> >>> Incidentally, she's organising a research workshop next month that
> >>> might be
> >>> of interest: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/conference/drd09/
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Alan
> >>>
> >>> On Jul 27 2009, Ernest Edmonds wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi folks
> >>>>
> >>>> Simon has pretty much covered the main points. I might just add
> >>>> emphasis.
> >>>>
> >>>> For background, I have written code as part of my art practice
> >>>> since
> >>>> the 1960s and run teams doing this kind of stuff all the time. As
> >>>> Simon points out, there are many diverse skills in programming
> >>>> and no
> >>>> one person has them all. Real-time control, as in robotics, is just
> >>>> one specialised branch - but one that many skilled programmers do
> >>>> not
> >>>> know all that well. As with many aspects of life, creating and
> >>>> building teams or social environments is as important as finding
> >>>> technically skilled individuals.
> >>>>
> >>>> Its a side issue to this discussion, but the central position of
> >>>> programming WITHIN some modern art practice is also worthy of
> >>>> significant attention.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ernest Edmonds
> >>>>
> >>>> On 25/07/2009, at 12:18 AM, Simon Biggs wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Francis
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I sort of agree with you and disagree at the same time. I am an
> >>>>> artist who
> >>>>> programs. I regard programming as my primary medium - a form of
> >>>>> writing. I
> >>>>> consider computers themselves to be a form of writing, an
> >>>>> augmentation of
> >>>>> our capacity to make and interpret meaning. As an artist I put a
> >>>>> lot of
> >>>>> value on the capacity of the individual to make a difference, as
> >>>>> you seem to
> >>>>> do.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However, I think it is na?ve to argue that individuals produce
> >>>>> work
> >>>>> of value
> >>>>> when isolated from others. Even when we are not aware of it we are
> >>>>> part of a
> >>>>> large team of people. Newton stated that to achieve you need to
> >>>>> stand on the
> >>>>> shoulders of giants. By this he meant that shifts in understanding
> >>>>> require a
> >>>>> lot of prepatory work and the efforts of the many, not the few. He
> >>>>> recognised his theories depended on those of others.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have worked with computers since the 1970's and am familiar with
> >>>>> how some
> >>>>> of the chip-sets that have shaped the evolution of these systems
> >>>>> have come
> >>>>> into being. In the late 1970's important steps were made in VLSI.
> >>>>> This
> >>>>> depended on large teams of scientists, engineers and programmers
> >>>>> creating
> >>>>> miracles of minutarisation. That sort of working pattern remains
> >>>>> valid
> >>>>> today. It is important to remember that creating the technical
> >>>>> systems that
> >>>>> allowed for all those transistors to be packed onto such small
> >>>>> wafers of
> >>>>> silicon required major scientific and industrial resources. You
> >>>>> cannot fly
> >>>>> to the moon with a few mates. As we have seen, it is a massive
> >>>>> undertaking
> >>>>> requiring the dedicated human and material resources of nations.
> >>>>> The same is
> >>>>> true in the development of other technologies - in the development
> >>>>> of ideas.
> >>>>> The invention of the web is (erroneously) laid at the feet of one
> >>>>> person
> >>>>> (Berner Lees) but I think he would be the first person to admit
> >>>>> that he
> >>>>> couldn't have done it without the trillions of Euro's spent on
> >>>>> CERN, where
> >>>>> he worked. He was a product of that whole process. HTTP was too.
> >>>>> The web is
> >>>>> a complex system. Robots are also extremely complex systems.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My son, who is 9, has built a few robots, programming them in
> >>>>> Scratch and
> >>>>> NXT. He is lucky as his teacher is a professor of computing here
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> Edinburgh and at Stanford. It is terrific to see him develop these
> >>>>> skills at
> >>>>> a young age and you do not want to upset his apple-cart, but
> >>>>> sometimes he
> >>>>> says it is easy to build robots. Happily, it is not difficult to
> >>>>> show to him
> >>>>> the actual complexity of the systems he is only skimming the
> >>>>> surface of.
> >>>>> When he recognises just how much is involved he is clearly struck
> >>>>> with the
> >>>>> immensity of the task. Happily, he seems up for it. Perhaps I
> >>>>> should send
> >>>>> him to Thailand?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In short, the creation of culture (including technology) is an
> >>>>> activity that
> >>>>> involves us all.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Simon
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Simon Biggs
> >>>>> Research Professor
> >>>>> edinburgh college of art
> >>>>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> >>>>> www.eca.ac.uk
> >>>>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> >>>>> www.littlepig.org.uk
> >>>>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: Francis Wittenberger <director@culturebase.org>
> >>>>> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:40:21 +0700
> >>>>> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> hi Simon,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> i do not agree that "Programmers good enough to do this kind of
> >>>>> work are
> >>>>> thin on the ground"
> >>>>> - while i am not saying that any 'web designer' is equipped to do
> >>>>> 'robotics' but there are hundreds of thousand programmers who do
> >>>>> relative low-level programming and hardware - the problem is that
> >>>>> there
> >>>>> is nobody around to define for them WHAT to do - this is what i
> >>>>> mean by
> >>>>> 'talkers' - for example on this and other 'new media forums' -
> >>>>> most if
> >>>>> not all of those who discuss aren't able to define (to a
> >>>>> programmer) what
> >>>>> they are talking about - in fact, i think even they probably
> >>>>> have no
> >>>>> idea what they are talking about .. but their talk seems to enable
> >>>>> university and other grants, which they spend on living normal,
> >>>>> non
> >>>>> artistic , non creative, middle class lives - that is the problem.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> i would suggest to aggregate funds by not granting to those who
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> unable to excel and define what what they are talking about , and
> >>>>> dedicate the rest of the money to programmers and engineers who
> >>>>> otherwise end up hungry on the commercial market just because they
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> not good 'talkers' enough to get academic grants.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> i also do not agree to the concept of "employing a single
> >>>>> programmer is
> >>>>> not going to get you very far" - if you take a close look - every
> >>>>> good
> >>>>> invention , just as any good software originate from a single mind
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> a tiny team. every efficient software was written by one person.
> >>>>> unlike
> >>>>> microsoft and alike who make money from deals and speculations
> >>>>> creating
> >>>>> ever-in-progress waste they call 'software'.
> >>>>> compare that to the fact that every chip has tiny and efficient
> >>>>> low
> >>>>> level code that is virtually 100% fully debugged and error free
> >>>>> and is
> >>>>> result of work by a single programmer or a tiny team - this is why
> >>>>> chips
> >>>>> and CPUs work unlike 'MS office' that is forever "one version
> >>>>> short of
> >>>>> being finished"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> no computer or phone , or a hard disk would work today without
> >>>>> every
> >>>>> part being close to perfect on its own - the problem lies in the
> >>>>> inability of programmers to link with artists (or free their own
> >>>>> mind by
> >>>>> other means), and the inability of academics and artists to
> >>>>> pinpoint
> >>>>> what type of integrated sub-systems to compile of the parts;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the cases in which things work are the cases where the programmer
> >>>>> was
> >>>>> somewhat an artist, or an artist who pushed himself to actually
> >>>>> code his
> >>>>> creative thought.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> i do agree that more then one person or programmer would be
> >>>>> required to
> >>>>> realize a robotic project, but that is also true to publishing a
> >>>>> book
> >>>>> for example - normally a small team lead by a visionary is the
> >>>>> best
> >>>>> way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> blindly accepting (or promoting) the idea that many top
> >>>>> programmers
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> lots of rare resources are a must to make an innovative step - is
> >>>>> bad
> >>>>> for us who want to get down to the work and innovate - because
> >>>>> every
> >>>>> time we approach an institute or company they think to themselves
> >>>>> 'i better
> >>>>> keep distance from those crazy artists who need millions of
> >>>>> dollars
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> for their crazy future projects' - while in fact - no more then a
> >>>>> team
> >>>>> of 3-4 developers and 1-2 artists are required to prototype ANY
> >>>>> invention
> >>>>> and the funds can be as low as really basic requirements - after
> >>>>> all,
> >>>>> true artists and creative people do what they do out of urge - and
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> for the money :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - -
> >>>>>
> >>>>> regards from thailand,
> >>>>> francis
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Programmers good enough to do this kind of work are thin on the
> >>>>>> ground and
> >>>>>> valuable. I wish we had a few. I mean, we do, but they are all
> >>>>>> busily
> >>>>>> employed on well funded research projects and have very little
> >>>>>> time for more
> >>>>>> speculative and less well funded work. Those that do are special.
> >>>>>> We could
> >>>>>> do with a lot more.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I missed your call for a robotics programmer so am not sure what
> >>>>>> you were
> >>>>>> looking for, but one observation I would make about development
> >>>>>> work in this
> >>>>>> field is that employing a single programmer is not going to get
> >>>>>> you very
> >>>>>> far. Robotics is one of the most multi-disciplinary and demanding
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> technical areas. You need different kinds of programmers for
> >>>>>> different
> >>>>>> aspects of the systems (sensing algorithms are very different to
> >>>>>> those
> >>>>>> required for motor control). You also need engineers with various
> >>>>>> skill-sets
> >>>>>> as well as specialists from other areas (computational
> >>>>>> linguistics, computer
> >>>>>> vision, networking, micro-electronics, psychology, etc).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Simon
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Simon Biggs
> >>>>>> Research Professor
> >>>>>> edinburgh college of art
> >>>>>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> >>>>>> www.eca.ac.uk
> >>>>>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> >>>>>> www.littlepig.org.uk
> >>>>>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From: <director@culturebase.org>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> >>>>>> <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:19:15 +0700
> >>>>>> To: <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> >>>>>> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sawasdee
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> re. Digital Skin
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> MAF Thailand (2005)
> >>>>>> http://culturebase.org/home/thailand/MAF05/viewpage.php?
> >>>>>> menu_item=A_festival
> >>>>>> _theme
> >>>>>> http://culturebase.org/home/thailand/MAF05/viewpage.php?
> >>>>>> menu_item=B_maf_imag
> >>>>>> es
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> re. Cyborgs discussion
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> everybody here TALKING about cyborgs but funny enough there were
> >>>>>> ZERO
> >>>>>> programmers responding to my call "seeking hardcore programmer"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> i wonder what is this discussion all about and who is going to do
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> work;
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> it seems there is not a single hardware engineer or a serious
> >>>>>> programmer
> >>>>>> reading this list - or?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> perhaps the heads of departments, historians, academics,
> >>>>>> philosophers and
> >>>>>> talkers should unite with a FUND to hire programmers to do
> >>>>>> something
> >>>>>> about all this talk..?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> hope to hear opinions
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> best regards from thailand
> >>>>>> francis
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Re.
> >>>>>>> Hi Avi
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thank you for your "Digital Skin".
> >>>>>>> If Cyberspace is our skin, our body is a Network-body and a
> >>>>>>> flat
> >>>>>>> screen. If my memory is good, this made you say in a previous
> >>>>>>> post
> >>>>>>> that we are all cyborgs. At the same time there is a
> >>>>>>> resistance to
> >>>>>>> that. Actual matter resists to being resumed to digital matter.
> >>>>>>> Thickness resists to being resumed to 2-dimensions. Physical
> >>>>>>> bodies
> >>>>>>> resist to being resumed to images. This resistence interests me.
> >>>>>>> Things are not just flowing. They also scratch and scream. And
> >>>>>>> cyborgs
> >>>>>>> are not just the bright future of a superhumanity !
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In the 1970s, Jean-Fran?ois Lyotard wrote about "The great
> >>>>>>> ephemeral
> >>>>>>> skin" in his book Libidinal Economy (Theories of Contemporary
> >>>>>>> Culture). He was describing it as a carnal extrusion and a
> >>>>>>> virtual
> >>>>>>> membrane where the world and our desires would meet. It is
> >>>>>>> "ephemeral"
> >>>>>>> because it is in constant mutation. Cyberspace is like this
> >>>>>>> "great
> >>>>>>> ephemeral skin", just as language is.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Here is an intersting artwork where the human body is scanned,
> >>>>>>> fragmented and recomposed through machines and softwares which
> >>>>>>> pervert
> >>>>>>> the idea of mapping (GoogleEarth)
> >>>>>>> http://www.locurto-outcault.com/index.html
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> St?phane
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Le 22 juil. 09 ? 07:12, Avi Rosen a ?crit :
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi St?phane,
> >>>>>>>> Very interesting subject "Epithelia, Creative Skins"...
> >>>>>>>> I made some artworks on this theme: "Digital Skin 2" -
> >>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIO5bnV4i6E
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "The Cyberspace is an extension of the human foot, eye and the
> >>>>>>>> skin.
> >>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>> electronic gadgets and the data sphere are Galactic immediate
> >>>>>>>> Torus
> >>>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>> extension of the human central nervous system, and the stage of
> >>>>>>>> 'Digital
> >>>>>>>> Skin' performance. It creates virtual extension of Marcel
> >>>>>>>> Duchamp's
> >>>>>>>> unfinished "Big Glass" piece, his voice (manipulated by the
> >>>>>>>> speed of
> >>>>>>>> light)on the video explains it. The transparent Cyberbody
> >>>>>>>> (digital
> >>>>>>>> mummy) is
> >>>>>>>> located eternally in cyberspace superposition. The departure
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> arrival are
> >>>>>>>> compressed to a singularity(Paul Virilio), on the digital
> >>>>>>>> skin's
> >>>>>>>> surface.
> >>>>>>>> 'Digital Skin 2' video sequence is bricolage of my endless
> >>>>>>>> virtual
> >>>>>>>> voyages (
> >>>>>>>> 'Digital Skin' is another example of such trajectory) in
> >>>>>>>> cyberspace,
> >>>>>>>> superimposing personal data on public data base (Goggle Earth
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> Sky). My
> >>>>>>>> body digital data strips, merged with the Earth and cosmos
> >>>>>>>> digital
> >>>>>>>> data
> >>>>>>>> strips produced by the satellites and telescopes. The
> >>>>>>>> digitalization
> >>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>> universe and our body transformed it to a flat image displayed
> >>>>>>>> on the
> >>>>>>>> computer monitor ('Digital Skin').The digital video sequences
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>> the MEME
> >>>>>>>> for further construction \deconstruction of cyber audiovisual
> >>>>>>>> mutual
> >>>>>>>> memory
> >>>>>>>> and universal knowledge."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Avi Rosen,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This is the first time I contribute to this discussion. I am a
> >>>>>>>> visual
> >>>>>>>> artist and art theorist. I am wrighting a book about skin as a
> >>>>>>>> creative process ( "Epithelia, Creative Skins", "Les peaux
> >>>>>>>> cr?atrices"
> >>>>>>>> in French).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
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> >>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________
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> >>>
> >>> -- -- Alan Blackwell Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge
> >>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/afb21/ Phone: +44 (0) 1223 334418
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 17:05:27 +0300
> From: ekmel ertan <eertan@forumist.com>
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Ethnic Cyborg
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Message-ID: <1B6F6966-520C-437C-B91C-B7D193AD4056@forumist.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed;
> delsp=yes
>
> Dear Yasminers,
>
> The Ethnic Cyborg discussion is over in Yasmin Discussion list.
> Although it looks a bit retro concept today the discussion showed that
> the topic has many facets worth to think on.
> Harraway-like point of view was kind of dominant as a more framed
> approach, at least in the beginning.
> Then the discussion turned out more about the definition and
> boundaries of the concept.
> Our question in mind was if we can talk about a new understanding of
> cyborg with all the ubiquitous technology around us and the new
> technologies -digital or not- embedded in, attached or remotely
> connected to our bodies. May be more than a created/made machine, the
> evoluation of Therefore we add the sub question of 'ethnicity'. The
> roots the communities and traditions of living together versus the
> changing bodies and perceptions.
> It is really difficult to classify the discussion Hence I collected
> the mails together and save as a pdf file for an easier re-reding. It
> is attached.
> I like to thank to roger malina for offering this topic which was very
> beneficial to (un)Cyborgable - amberConference as well as I believe
> for the SuperHuman symposium - Anat.
> I also like to thank all yasmin editors and moderators for keeping the
> discussion alive which is not an easy job.
>
> all the best
>
>
>
> ekmel ertan
> eertan@forumist.com
> +90.532.4738971
> www.forumist.com
> skype id: ekmelertan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 18:22:47 +0700
> From: Francis Wittenberger <director@culturebase.org>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Message-ID: <20090801172822.5592.70787C6F@culturebase.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>
> hi
>
> > roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> Wrote:
> >
> > "this is the last day of our cyborg discussion"
>
> wow! really?..
>
> thank you Stephane for your meaningful reactions but it seems
> that there is some kind of concern over what level the cyborg discussion
> is supposed to reach on this list. fine and maybe better that way
>
> if you or anyone interested to join and hopefully do more then just talk
> pls
> write me and i will setup a forum on my server where breakthrough and
> non-linearity are welcome ;)
>
> regards,
> francis
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Here are some reactions to some interesting questions :
> >
> > > hi,
> > >
> > > i am wondering:
> > >
> > > how much/what/which human/bio/other parts/capabilities must be
> > > present in
> > > a cyborg 'mixture' in order for an organism to be called 'cyborg'?
> > >
> > "Cyborg" is an image for technical and biological mutation coming
> > together. Every day's little mutations may contribute to a "cyborg
> > condition" as long as they question a monolithic "human condition". Of
> > course, "animal condition" may as well question it.
> >
> > > must the 'parts' be physically adjoining the body or could those
> > > also be
> > > remote/distributed?
> > >
> >
> > A "body" is not a totalisation. >It can be fragmented.
> >
> > > must a cyborg eventually have a body? or could an evolved (human?)
> > > consciousness,
> > > residing (say, 'on the net' or in space/ether) be called a cyborg? (it
> > > is has a human consciousness and some type of energy as 'body parts'
> > >
> >
> > If "counciousness" is a psychic entity, you may of course question its
> > embodiment process and wether it would exist without any embodiment.
> > But can you name any "consciousness" you have met which is not somehow
> > embodied ? Does that exist apart from a totaly idealistic and abstract
> > point of vew ?
> > The net has many aspects of a body. It is not proved it has a
> > counciousness by itself, but it certainly is a media for sharing
> > counciousness.
> > And "space" is the place for bodies.
> >
> >
> > > if a (say, a male) cyborg gained (say, a female) artificial sexual
> > > organs would 'it' then be a he/she or an 'it' ?
> >
> > And would "it" then have desires, maybe mate and, why not, reproduct ?
> > By the way, don't forget that some "human" "he" think of themselves as
> > "she" and vice versa. And sometimes as "it".
> >
> >
> > >
> > > can an addition alone render a bio-organism be cyborg? any minimal
> > > requirements as of the extent and or physical/virtual properties of
> > > the
> > > addition?
> >
> > If this "addition" does not create a new body, and , therefore, a
> > different "counciousness", then it seems to me that it is rather some
> > kind of a gadget rather than a new entity (call it "cyborg" or
> > whatever you want).
> >
> > >
> > > are cyborg eligible for Inheritance? (what part of a human is eligible
> > > for Inheritance? is it the body? life itself? the notion of 'self'?)
> > > what if his/her/it's sense-of-self has evolved/changed or removed?
> >
> > Again, the mind-body problem, transfered to genetics (biological
> > evolution)-epigenetics (cultural evolution).
> > As long as the "sense of self" is concerned : is it given and simply
> > "inherited", or is it under permanent construction and deconstruction ?
> > Now, if the "sense of self" is totaly "removed", does that mean a pure
> > mechanistic state? or, rather, what Buddhism calls "nirvana" ?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > I would like to recommend a TED Talk by Elizabeth Gilbert on 'genius'
> > related indirectly to the posts below at
> > http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html
> > "Elizabeth Gilbert muses on the impossible things we expect from
> > artists and geniuses -- and shares the radical idea that, instead of
> > the rare person "being" a genius, all of us "have" a genius. It's a
> > funny, personal and surprisingly moving talk."
> > I
> >
> > As far as Elizabeth Gilbert's TED Talk on 'genius', mentioned in
> > another recent post, is concerned : I think Mrs. Gilbert performs as a
> > good coach for training emotional inteligence, nicely doing her job
> > for public entertainment. She is a fine, emotional, lively and
> > cultivated performer. But it seems that her purpose is to turn
> > "Socrates daimon" into a socially acceptable relation and into a
> > positive psychic experience. Is this the same "daimon" which pushed
> > Socrates towards his social and physical death amongst the Athenian
> > society ?
> >
> > Best
> >
> > St?phane Dumas
> >
> >
> >
> > > "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs@eca.ac.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Which brings us to your point about genius and the jump of
> > >> creativity.
> > >> Whilst I agree that creativity does not work in straight lines or
> > >> as a
> > >> coherent progression I do not think there is such a thing as
> > >> genius. As I
> > >> have already indicated, I have a lot of time for Newton?s idea of
> > >> team-work.
> > >> I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
> > >> Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour?s of expanded
> > >> and
> > >> diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an
> > >> instance
> > >> of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and
> > >> defined
> > >> by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an
> > >> essential
> > >> or irreducible self ? the self is more like a construction). In a
> > >> sense I
> > >> find it difficult to identify what is in and what is out. As such,
> > >> all our
> > >> activities are more or less distributed and collective in nature. I
> > >> do not
> > >> see how genius can fit in that model.
> > >
> > > Simon - holding a firm grip over a notion such as 'there is no thing
> > > such as genius' simply because it does not fit into your will cause
> > > the occasional
> > > appearances of a genius to be disregarded thus we are all forced into
> > > the linear progression of scientific research.
> > >
> > > isn't it a pity to give up on our chance to 'jump' just because a
> > > model
> > > is too narrow?
> > >
> > > - -
> > >
> > > best regards,
> > > francis
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hi Simon, and everybody
> > >>
> > >> Your trail about cyborg flesh and robots' skin seems very interesting
> > >> to me. As I said in a previous post, I think one fruitfull way to
> > >> explore cyborgs is to investigate what kind of body they are. This
> > >> body question is not just a matter of envelope giving a look to more
> > >> or less sophisticated abstract programs. Nor is it the mere mechanics
> > >> allowing a robot to enact the programs it is supposed to perform.
> > >>
> > >> The embodied interface is more than just a thin and smooth
> > >> interchangable skin, like in most 3D simulations. Skin is a surface
> > >> producing images, but it is also part of a body. Its thickness is
> > >> even
> > >> more important than its surface. I think developing interfaces'
> > >> thickness and even roughness is an important task, parallel to the
> > >> task of making them smooth and fluid for better interaction. This
> > >> is a
> > >> field where engeneers, programmers and artists meet.
> > >>
> > >> David Cronenberg's vision, in the 1990s, was mindfull. In "Existenz",
> > >> he imagined "bio ports", organic connections between machines and
> > >> bodies. "Naked Lunch" is the story of a writer (William Burroughs)
> > >> who
> > >> looks for the "black meat" extracted from centipedes from Amazonia.
> > >> There is a strong connection between this drug and his writing. His
> > >> type writer mutates into a beetle. Here, human language, machine and
> > >> animal body ("meat") fuse or mutate into each others.
> > >>
> > >> Beyond the SF aspect, what about "cyborg flesh"?
> > >>
> > >> Best
> > >>
> > >> St?phane
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> stephane dumas
> > >>
> > >> ESAAD, Paris
> > >> stephanedumas.net (under constr.)
> > >> stedumas@free.fr
> > >>
> > >> Le 27 juil. 09 ? 18:16, Simon Biggs a ?crit :
> > >>
> > >>> Thanks Alan
> > >>>
> > >>> You are lucky to work in the corridor you do. There is so much
> > >>> history and
> > >>> exciting current work going on there!
> > >>>
> > >>> I have a suspicion that any approach that might interest your
> > >>> colleague
> > >>> would be focused on affect in computing and robotics. As such, I
> > >>> suspect she
> > >>> is as interested in how people perceive the behaviour of robots as
> > >>> she is in
> > >>> the computing and engineering side of the systems involved.
> > >>>
> > >>> Given that the original post in this thread concerned a project to
> > >>> develop
> > >>> some sort of artistic robot focused on digital skin (I think this
> > >>> was the
> > >>> original thread) then it might be she could be interested in looking
> > >>> at how
> > >>> different physical envelopes might be employed on a number of robots
> > >>> and to
> > >>> undertake a study on how people apprehend and react to that.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is this the right sort of direction?
> > >>>
> > >>> If so I can see why a scientist, especially one interested in HCI,
> > >>> would be
> > >>> interested in this. However, to reverse your challenge ? how many
> > >>> artists
> > >>> would be interested in this?
> > >>>
> > >>> If I remember correctly you and I have a history with cyborg flesh
> > >>> related
> > >>> things ;)
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards
> > >>>
> > >>> Simon
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Simon Biggs
> > >>> Research Professor
> > >>> edinburgh college of art
> > >>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> > >>> www.eca.ac.uk
> > >>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > >>>
> > >>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> > >>> www.littlepig.org.uk
> > >>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Alan Blackwell <afb21@cam.ac.uk>
> > >>> Reply-To: <Alan.Blackwell@cl.cam.ac.uk>, YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> > >>> <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > >>> Date: 27 Jul 2009 15:40:13 +0100
> > >>> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I've enjoyed Ernest and Simon's contributions, and wondered, as I
> > >>> read
> > >>> them, just how many readers of this list do have sufficient coding
> > >>> expertise to undertake a project on this scale?
> > >>>
> > >>> So that got me to wondering - there are many skilled programmers in
> > >>> the
> > >>> world - they just don't read this list. How do we get them engaged
> > >>> in
> > >>> projects like this?
> > >>>
> > >>> In fact, there is a skilled robot programmer just down the hall from
> > >>> me,
> > >>> who already works on programming facial expressions for robots. But
> > >>> she
> > >>> doesn't read this list. Why not? Because I don't think she is
> > >>> interested in
> > >>> the issues that this list discusses.
> > >>>
> > >>> So here is an interesting experiment/challenge ...
> > >>>
> > >>> Is there anyone on the list who thinks they could present this
> > >>> project to
> > >>> my student in a way that would make her interested in working on
> > >>> it? I
> > >>> would be happy to pass on a proposal like that under controlled
> > >>> circumstances, in order to assess the way she responds to it. I
> > >>> think that
> > >>> the nature of her response might well cast light on the original
> > >>> questioner's post.
> > >>>
> > >>> You'd probably want to know a little about her, so here is her web
> > >>> page:
> > >>> http://www.roboticschick.org/
> > >>>
> > >>> Of course, you're more than welcome to contact her directly, and see
> > >>> what
> > >>> happens. My prediction is that she would either ignore the email, or
> > >>> be
> > >>> initially polite followed by a brush-off. If you do want me to
> > >>> provide a
> > >>> slightly more detailed account of her response, I'd be happy to
> > >>> collect
> > >>> this in the name of research.
> > >>>
> > >>> Incidentally, she's organising a research workshop next month that
> > >>> might be
> > >>> of interest: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/conference/drd09/
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>> Alan
> > >>>
> > >>> On Jul 27 2009, Ernest Edmonds wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi folks
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Simon has pretty much covered the main points. I might just add
> > >>>> emphasis.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For background, I have written code as part of my art practice
> > >>>> since
> > >>>> the 1960s and run teams doing this kind of stuff all the time. As
> > >>>> Simon points out, there are many diverse skills in programming
> > >>>> and no
> > >>>> one person has them all. Real-time control, as in robotics, is just
> > >>>> one specialised branch - but one that many skilled programmers do
> > >>>> not
> > >>>> know all that well. As with many aspects of life, creating and
> > >>>> building teams or social environments is as important as finding
> > >>>> technically skilled individuals.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Its a side issue to this discussion, but the central position of
> > >>>> programming WITHIN some modern art practice is also worthy of
> > >>>> significant attention.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ernest Edmonds
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 25/07/2009, at 12:18 AM, Simon Biggs wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hi Francis
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I sort of agree with you and disagree at the same time. I am an
> > >>>>> artist who
> > >>>>> programs. I regard programming as my primary medium - a form of
> > >>>>> writing. I
> > >>>>> consider computers themselves to be a form of writing, an
> > >>>>> augmentation of
> > >>>>> our capacity to make and interpret meaning. As an artist I put a
> > >>>>> lot of
> > >>>>> value on the capacity of the individual to make a difference, as
> > >>>>> you seem to
> > >>>>> do.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> However, I think it is na?ve to argue that individuals produce
> > >>>>> work
> > >>>>> of value
> > >>>>> when isolated from others. Even when we are not aware of it we are
> > >>>>> part of a
> > >>>>> large team of people. Newton stated that to achieve you need to
> > >>>>> stand on the
> > >>>>> shoulders of giants. By this he meant that shifts in understanding
> > >>>>> require a
> > >>>>> lot of prepatory work and the efforts of the many, not the few. He
> > >>>>> recognised his theories depended on those of others.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have worked with computers since the 1970's and am familiar with
> > >>>>> how some
> > >>>>> of the chip-sets that have shaped the evolution of these systems
> > >>>>> have come
> > >>>>> into being. In the late 1970's important steps were made in VLSI.
> > >>>>> This
> > >>>>> depended on large teams of scientists, engineers and programmers
> > >>>>> creating
> > >>>>> miracles of minutarisation. That sort of working pattern remains
> > >>>>> valid
> > >>>>> today. It is important to remember that creating the technical
> > >>>>> systems that
> > >>>>> allowed for all those transistors to be packed onto such small
> > >>>>> wafers of
> > >>>>> silicon required major scientific and industrial resources. You
> > >>>>> cannot fly
> > >>>>> to the moon with a few mates. As we have seen, it is a massive
> > >>>>> undertaking
> > >>>>> requiring the dedicated human and material resources of nations.
> > >>>>> The same is
> > >>>>> true in the development of other technologies - in the development
> > >>>>> of ideas.
> > >>>>> The invention of the web is (erroneously) laid at the feet of one
> > >>>>> person
> > >>>>> (Berner Lees) but I think he would be the first person to admit
> > >>>>> that he
> > >>>>> couldn't have done it without the trillions of Euro's spent on
> > >>>>> CERN, where
> > >>>>> he worked. He was a product of that whole process. HTTP was too.
> > >>>>> The web is
> > >>>>> a complex system. Robots are also extremely complex systems.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> My son, who is 9, has built a few robots, programming them in
> > >>>>> Scratch and
> > >>>>> NXT. He is lucky as his teacher is a professor of computing here
> > >>>>> in
> > >>>>> Edinburgh and at Stanford. It is terrific to see him develop these
> > >>>>> skills at
> > >>>>> a young age and you do not want to upset his apple-cart, but
> > >>>>> sometimes he
> > >>>>> says it is easy to build robots. Happily, it is not difficult to
> > >>>>> show to him
> > >>>>> the actual complexity of the systems he is only skimming the
> > >>>>> surface of.
> > >>>>> When he recognises just how much is involved he is clearly struck
> > >>>>> with the
> > >>>>> immensity of the task. Happily, he seems up for it. Perhaps I
> > >>>>> should send
> > >>>>> him to Thailand?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In short, the creation of culture (including technology) is an
> > >>>>> activity that
> > >>>>> involves us all.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Regards
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Simon
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Simon Biggs
> > >>>>> Research Professor
> > >>>>> edinburgh college of art
> > >>>>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> > >>>>> www.eca.ac.uk
> > >>>>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> > >>>>> www.littlepig.org.uk
> > >>>>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> From: Francis Wittenberger <director@culturebase.org>
> > >>>>> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <
> yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:40:21 +0700
> > >>>>> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> hi Simon,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> i do not agree that "Programmers good enough to do this kind of
> > >>>>> work are
> > >>>>> thin on the ground"
> > >>>>> - while i am not saying that any 'web designer' is equipped to do
> > >>>>> 'robotics' but there are hundreds of thousand programmers who do
> > >>>>> relative low-level programming and hardware - the problem is that
> > >>>>> there
> > >>>>> is nobody around to define for them WHAT to do - this is what i
> > >>>>> mean by
> > >>>>> 'talkers' - for example on this and other 'new media forums' -
> > >>>>> most if
> > >>>>> not all of those who discuss aren't able to define (to a
> > >>>>> programmer) what
> > >>>>> they are talking about - in fact, i think even they probably
> > >>>>> have no
> > >>>>> idea what they are talking about .. but their talk seems to enable
> > >>>>> university and other grants, which they spend on living normal,
> > >>>>> non
> > >>>>> artistic , non creative, middle class lives - that is the problem.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> i would suggest to aggregate funds by not granting to those who
> > >>>>> are
> > >>>>> unable to excel and define what what they are talking about , and
> > >>>>> dedicate the rest of the money to programmers and engineers who
> > >>>>> otherwise end up hungry on the commercial market just because they
> > >>>>> are
> > >>>>> not good 'talkers' enough to get academic grants.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> i also do not agree to the concept of "employing a single
> > >>>>> programmer is
> > >>>>> not going to get you very far" - if you take a close look - every
> > >>>>> good
> > >>>>> invention , just as any good software originate from a single mind
> > >>>>> or
> > >>>>> a tiny team. every efficient software was written by one person.
> > >>>>> unlike
> > >>>>> microsoft and alike who make money from deals and speculations
> > >>>>> creating
> > >>>>> ever-in-progress waste they call 'software'.
> > >>>>> compare that to the fact that every chip has tiny and efficient
> > >>>>> low
> > >>>>> level code that is virtually 100% fully debugged and error free
> > >>>>> and is
> > >>>>> result of work by a single programmer or a tiny team - this is why
> > >>>>> chips
> > >>>>> and CPUs work unlike 'MS office' that is forever "one version
> > >>>>> short of
> > >>>>> being finished"
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> no computer or phone , or a hard disk would work today without
> > >>>>> every
> > >>>>> part being close to perfect on its own - the problem lies in the
> > >>>>> inability of programmers to link with artists (or free their own
> > >>>>> mind by
> > >>>>> other means), and the inability of academics and artists to
> > >>>>> pinpoint
> > >>>>> what type of integrated sub-systems to compile of the parts;
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> the cases in which things work are the cases where the programmer
> > >>>>> was
> > >>>>> somewhat an artist, or an artist who pushed himself to actually
> > >>>>> code his
> > >>>>> creative thought.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> i do agree that more then one person or programmer would be
> > >>>>> required to
> > >>>>> realize a robotic project, but that is also true to publishing a
> > >>>>> book
> > >>>>> for example - normally a small team lead by a visionary is the
> > >>>>> best
> > >>>>> way.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> blindly accepting (or promoting) the idea that many top
> > >>>>> programmers
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>> lots of rare resources are a must to make an innovative step - is
> > >>>>> bad
> > >>>>> for us who want to get down to the work and innovate - because
> > >>>>> every
> > >>>>> time we approach an institute or company they think to themselves
> > >>>>> 'i better
> > >>>>> keep distance from those crazy artists who need millions of
> > >>>>> dollars
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>> for their crazy future projects' - while in fact - no more then a
> > >>>>> team
> > >>>>> of 3-4 developers and 1-2 artists are required to prototype ANY
> > >>>>> invention
> > >>>>> and the funds can be as low as really basic requirements - after
> > >>>>> all,
> > >>>>> true artists and creative people do what they do out of urge - and
> > >>>>> not
> > >>>>> for the money :)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> - -
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> regards from thailand,
> > >>>>> francis
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Programmers good enough to do this kind of work are thin on the
> > >>>>>> ground and
> > >>>>>> valuable. I wish we had a few. I mean, we do, but they are all
> > >>>>>> busily
> > >>>>>> employed on well funded research projects and have very little
> > >>>>>> time for more
> > >>>>>> speculative and less well funded work. Those that do are special.
> > >>>>>> We could
> > >>>>>> do with a lot more.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I missed your call for a robotics programmer so am not sure what
> > >>>>>> you were
> > >>>>>> looking for, but one observation I would make about development
> > >>>>>> work in this
> > >>>>>> field is that employing a single programmer is not going to get
> > >>>>>> you very
> > >>>>>> far. Robotics is one of the most multi-disciplinary and demanding
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>> technical areas. You need different kinds of programmers for
> > >>>>>> different
> > >>>>>> aspects of the systems (sensing algorithms are very different to
> > >>>>>> those
> > >>>>>> required for motor control). You also need engineers with various
> > >>>>>> skill-sets
> > >>>>>> as well as specialists from other areas (computational
> > >>>>>> linguistics, computer
> > >>>>>> vision, networking, micro-electronics, psychology, etc).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Regards
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Simon
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Simon Biggs
> > >>>>>> Research Professor
> > >>>>>> edinburgh college of art
> > >>>>>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> > >>>>>> www.eca.ac.uk
> > >>>>>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> > >>>>>> www.littlepig.org.uk
> > >>>>>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> From: <director@culturebase.org>
> > >>>>>> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> > >>>>>> <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > >>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:19:15 +0700
> > >>>>>> To: <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > >>>>>> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Sawasdee
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> re. Digital Skin
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> MAF Thailand (2005)
> > >>>>>> http://culturebase.org/home/thailand/MAF05/viewpage.php?
> > >>>>>> menu_item=A_festival
> > >>>>>> _theme
> > >>>>>> http://culturebase.org/home/thailand/MAF05/viewpage.php?
> > >>>>>> menu_item=B_maf_imag
> > >>>>>> es
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> re. Cyborgs discussion
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> everybody here TALKING about cyborgs but funny enough there were
> > >>>>>> ZERO
> > >>>>>> programmers responding to my call "seeking hardcore programmer"
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> i wonder what is this discussion all about and who is going to do
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>> work;
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> it seems there is not a single hardware engineer or a serious
> > >>>>>> programmer
> > >>>>>> reading this list - or?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> perhaps the heads of departments, historians, academics,
> > >>>>>> philosophers and
> > >>>>>> talkers should unite with a FUND to hire programmers to do
> > >>>>>> something
> > >>>>>> about all this talk..?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> hope to hear opinions
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> best regards from thailand
> > >>>>>> francis
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Re.
> > >>>>>>> Hi Avi
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thank you for your "Digital Skin".
> > >>>>>>> If Cyberspace is our skin, our body is a Network-body and a
> > >>>>>>> flat
> > >>>>>>> screen. If my memory is good, this made you say in a previous
> > >>>>>>> post
> > >>>>>>> that we are all cyborgs. At the same time there is a
> > >>>>>>> resistance to
> > >>>>>>> that. Actual matter resists to being resumed to digital matter.
> > >>>>>>> Thickness resists to being resumed to 2-dimensions. Physical
> > >>>>>>> bodies
> > >>>>>>> resist to being resumed to images. This resistence interests me.
> > >>>>>>> Things are not just flowing. They also scratch and scream. And
> > >>>>>>> cyborgs
> > >>>>>>> are not just the bright future of a superhumanity !
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> In the 1970s, Jean-Fran?ois Lyotard wrote about "The great
> > >>>>>>> ephemeral
> > >>>>>>> skin" in his book Libidinal Economy (Theories of Contemporary
> > >>>>>>> Culture). He was describing it as a carnal extrusion and a
> > >>>>>>> virtual
> > >>>>>>> membrane where the world and our desires would meet. It is
> > >>>>>>> "ephemeral"
> > >>>>>>> because it is in constant mutation. Cyberspace is like this
> > >>>>>>> "great
> > >>>>>>> ephemeral skin", just as language is.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Here is an intersting artwork where the human body is scanned,
> > >>>>>>> fragmented and recomposed through machines and softwares which
> > >>>>>>> pervert
> > >>>>>>> the idea of mapping (GoogleEarth)
> > >>>>>>> http://www.locurto-outcault.com/index.html
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Best
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> St?phane
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Le 22 juil. 09 ? 07:12, Avi Rosen a ?crit :
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hi St?phane,
> > >>>>>>>> Very interesting subject "Epithelia, Creative Skins"...
> > >>>>>>>> I made some artworks on this theme: "Digital Skin 2" -
> > >>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIO5bnV4i6E
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> "The Cyberspace is an extension of the human foot, eye and the
> > >>>>>>>> skin.
> > >>>>>>>> The
> > >>>>>>>> electronic gadgets and the data sphere are Galactic immediate
> > >>>>>>>> Torus
> > >>>>>>>> like
> > >>>>>>>> extension of the human central nervous system, and the stage of
> > >>>>>>>> 'Digital
> > >>>>>>>> Skin' performance. It creates virtual extension of Marcel
> > >>>>>>>> Duchamp's
> > >>>>>>>> unfinished "Big Glass" piece, his voice (manipulated by the
> > >>>>>>>> speed of
> > >>>>>>>> light)on the video explains it. The transparent Cyberbody
> > >>>>>>>> (digital
> > >>>>>>>> mummy) is
> > >>>>>>>> located eternally in cyberspace superposition. The departure
> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>> arrival are
> > >>>>>>>> compressed to a singularity(Paul Virilio), on the digital
> > >>>>>>>> skin's
> > >>>>>>>> surface.
> > >>>>>>>> 'Digital Skin 2' video sequence is bricolage of my endless
> > >>>>>>>> virtual
> > >>>>>>>> voyages (
> > >>>>>>>> 'Digital Skin' is another example of such trajectory) in
> > >>>>>>>> cyberspace,
> > >>>>>>>> superimposing personal data on public data base (Goggle Earth
> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>> Sky). My
> > >>>>>>>> body digital data strips, merged with the Earth and cosmos
> > >>>>>>>> digital
> > >>>>>>>> data
> > >>>>>>>> strips produced by the satellites and telescopes. The
> > >>>>>>>> digitalization
> > >>>>>>>> of the
> > >>>>>>>> universe and our body transformed it to a flat image displayed
> > >>>>>>>> on the
> > >>>>>>>> computer monitor ('Digital Skin').The digital video sequences
> > >>>>>>>> are
> > >>>>>>>> the MEME
> > >>>>>>>> for further construction \deconstruction of cyber audiovisual
> > >>>>>>>> mutual
> > >>>>>>>> memory
> > >>>>>>>> and universal knowledge."
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Avi Rosen,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> This is the first time I contribute to this discussion. I am a
> > >>>>>>>> visual
> > >>>>>>>> artist and art theorist. I am wrighting a book about skin as a
> > >>>>>>>> creative process ( "Epithelia, Creative Skins", "Les peaux
> > >>>>>>>> cr?atrices"
> > >>>>>>>> in French).
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> > >>>>>>>> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter
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> > >>>>>>>> mail address, name, and password in the fields found further
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> > >>>>>>>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
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> > >>>>> Digest
> > >>>>>> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
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> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in
> > >>>>>> Scotland, number
> > >>>>> SC009201
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
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> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
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> > >>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
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> > >>>>> "Set
> > >>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in
> > >>>>> Scotland,
> > >>>>> number SC009201
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> > >>>>> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
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> > >>>>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ______________________________
> > >>>> http://www.ernestedmonds.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
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> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -- -- Alan Blackwell Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge
> > >>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/afb21/ Phone: +44 (0) 1223 334418
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > >>>
> > >>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> > >>>
> > >>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> > >>> subscribe to. In
> > >>> the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name,
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> > >>> e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
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> > >>> "Set
> > >>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland,
> > >>> number SC009201
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
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> > >>>
> > >>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> > >>> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
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> > >>>
> > >>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> > >>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > >>
> > >> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> > >>
> > >> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> > >> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
> > >> mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
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> > >> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
> > >> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear
> > >> ("options page").
> > >>
> > >> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> > >> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > >
> > > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> > >
> > > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> > > subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
> > > mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
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> > > enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
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> > >
> > > HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> > > "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> >
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >
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> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 11:06:18 +0300
> From: "Avi Rosen" <avi@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] ethnic cyborg
> To: "'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS'" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Message-ID: <003a01ca1348$1d6546b0$582fd410$@technion.ac.il>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi St?phane,
> I like the "skin" works u linked, here r some of my autoportraits made with
> manual scanner :
> http://www.sipl.technion.ac.il/~avi/stils/selfport3.jpg
> http://www.sipl.technion.ac.il/~avi/stils/selfport2.jpg
> & panoramic one:
> http://www.sipl.technion.ac.il/~avi/panorama/panorama.html
>
> one can notice that the world is "flat" at list our consciousness... is it
> 3D?
> the 3D world origine was the "old slaw discret universe" in the speed of
> light
> (internet) 2D is the reality- hologram images at the event horizone of the
> Google singularity, "C"imulacra instead of Simulacra...
> you can read about it:
> "Art at the Event Horizon"- http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=505
>
> Avi.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:
> yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of stephane dumas
> Sent: ? 23 ???? 2009 15:46
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] ethnic cyborg
>
> Hi Avi
>
> Thank you for your "Digital Skin".
> If Cyberspace is our skin, our body is a Network-body and a flat
> screen. If my memory is good, this made you say in a previous post
> that we are all cyborgs. At the same time there is a resistance to
> that. Actual matter resists to being resumed to digital matter.
> Thickness resists to being resumed to 2-dimensions. Physical bodies
> resist to being resumed to images. This resistence interests me.
> Things are not just flowing. They also scratch and scream. And cyborgs
> are not just the bright future of a superhumanity !
>
> In the 1970s, Jean-Fran?ois Lyotard wrote about "The great ephemeral
> skin" in his book Libidinal Economy (Theories of Contemporary
> Culture). He was describing it as a carnal extrusion and a virtual
> membrane where the world and our desires would meet. It is "ephemeral"
> because it is in constant mutation. Cyberspace is like this "great
> ephemeral skin", just as language is.
>
> Here is an intersting artwork where the human body is scanned,
> fragmented and recomposed through machines and softwares which pervert
> the idea of mapping (GoogleEarth)
> http://www.locurto-outcault.com/index.html
>
> Best
>
> St?phane
>
> Le 22 juil. 09 ? 07:12, Avi Rosen a ?crit :
>
> > Hi St?phane,
> > Very interesting subject "Epithelia, Creative Skins"...
> > I made some artworks on this theme: "Digital Skin 2" -
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIO5bnV4i6E
> >
> > "The Cyberspace is an extension of the human foot, eye and the skin.
> > The
> > electronic gadgets and the data sphere are Galactic immediate Torus
> > like
> > extension of the human central nervous system, and the stage of
> > 'Digital
> > Skin' performance. It creates virtual extension of Marcel Duchamp's
> > unfinished "Big Glass" piece, his voice (manipulated by the speed of
> > light)on the video explains it. The transparent Cyberbody (digital
> > mummy) is
> > located eternally in cyberspace superposition. The departure and
> > arrival are
> > compressed to a singularity(Paul Virilio), on the digital skin's
> > surface.
> > 'Digital Skin 2' video sequence is bricolage of my endless virtual
> > voyages (
> > 'Digital Skin' is another example of such trajectory) in cyberspace,
> > superimposing personal data on public data base (Goggle Earth and
> > Sky). My
> > body digital data strips, merged with the Earth and cosmos digital
> > data
> > strips produced by the satellites and telescopes. The digitalization
> > of the
> > universe and our body transformed it to a flat image displayed on the
> > computer monitor ('Digital Skin').The digital video sequences are
> > the MEME
> > for further construction \deconstruction of cyber audiovisual mutual
> > memory
> > and universal knowledge."
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Avi Rosen,
> >
> >
> > This is the first time I contribute to this discussion. I am a visual
> > artist and art theorist. I am wrighting a book about skin as a
> > creative process ( "Epithelia, Creative Skins", "Les peaux cr?atrices"
> > in French).
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> > subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
> > mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
> > the page.
> >
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> > enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
> > asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear
> > ("options page").
> >
> > HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> > "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
>
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
>
> End of Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 41, Issue 1
> *************************************************
>
--
Nina Yankowitz
106 Spring St. 2N.
New York, N.Y. 10012
www.nyartprojects.com
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