destroyed as the final act of the process of creation:
http://www.artnetwork.com/mandala/gallery.html
Paul
On 3 Mar 2009, at 20:44, murat germen wrote:
> same approach can be found in native americans' sand paintings.
> pieces that take 5-10 days to complete as part of a ritual are
> totally erased after the ceremony is over with no visual record
> whatsoever. i esteem this approach very much, i bow and salute it
> sincerely and respectfully...
>
> valuing systems, stock exchange, art buying, markets, competition,
> copyrights, individuality, lack of anonimity are all western
> concepts anyway:)
> best,
> murat
>
>
> <<< +90 532 473 8970 (gsm mobile)
> <<< muratgermen@gmail.com
> <<< http://www.muratgermen.com
> <<< http://www.flickr.com/photos/muratgermen/
>
>
>
>
> On 03.Mar.2009, at 16:39, David Haley wrote:
>
>> In many parts of India, women 'perform' Rangoli every morning.
>> Rangoli is a popular form of art, usually drawn with sand on the
>> threshold to the home. Although the images are often very
>> intricate and magnificent, this 'art' and act of worship is swept
>> away and renewed each day. Another word, still spoken in
>> contemporary Hindi according to Vandana Shiva, comes from the Rig
>> Vedas and is the route of the word 'art', via the Greek word,
>> 'erete', is 'rta'. Rta means the dynamic process by which the
>> whole cosmos continues to be created, virtuously.
>>
>> Says something about different value systems?
>>
>> All the best
>> David
>>
>> On 3 Mar 2009, at 00:53, robert.thill@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting and vivid points, Murat.
>>>
>>> I think the short answer to part of your final statement that "there
>>> should be some sort of a right protection process involved within
>>> the
>>> art world" is that copyrights can provide protection for art.
>>>
>>> Since the topic of this discussion was partially inspired by the
>>> book
>>> "Artists as Inventors / Inventors as Artists" (eds. Dieter Daniels
>>> and
>>> [discussant] Barbara U. Schmidt), I thought I would draw on an
>>> idea in
>>> the text to bring out an aspect of the topic you have raised.
>>>
>>> In the introduction a kind of conclusion is reached that there
>>> "exists
>>> no mirror-image symmetry between the social roles of the artist and
>>> the inventor." The example given to illustrate the point is a quote
>>> from Billy Klüver: "But if a person says he or she is an artist, one
>>> can't say to that person: 'You are not an artist.' You are not
>>> allowed
>>> to say that." The text makes the point that "this popular
>>> understanding of the term means that being an artist resists
>>> external
>>> definition, whereas the label 'inventor,' though indeed not the
>>> designation of a profession per se, can nevertheless be
>>> substantiated
>>> by means of objective criteria such as patents." (p. 12-13).
>>>
>>> While this set of relationships is framed in popular
>>> understandings of
>>> roles and brings up a key point in the book's thesis (and the text
>>> also warns us about generalizations here), it omits the fact that an
>>> artist does have an objective criteria to substantiate his or her
>>> role
>>> and work, which is a copyright. Copyright is the artist's equivalent
>>> to an inventor's patent. (This statement is not meant to imply that
>>> there are not inventors and artists who don't participate in these
>>> two
>>> systems or who particularly value them in terms of their own
>>> self-definitions.)
>>>
>>> However, if what I write is accurate and these are indeed two
>>> objective ways in which artists and inventors can substantiate their
>>> work and roles, the more revealing question might be why are these
>>> two
>>> systems of intellectual property protection so distinctly different?
>>> Why are the terms and values not reciprocal? And should they be?
>>>
>>> The artist Lisa Schmitz has explored this contradiction by
>>> proposing,
>>> in 1993, a new institution to be named the World Artistic Property
>>> Organization (WAPO), which would operate as a patent-office
>>> equivalent
>>> for art ideas.
>>>
>>> Here is a section of a text that I wrote about the WAPO project
>>> with a
>>> link to the online version (I have stripped out the endnotes).
>>>
>>> "Most directly, the WAPO installation pondered the distinctions
>>> between art and invention through the differences in the legal
>>> protections of copyright and patents, asking who benefits from the
>>> disparities and how artists might begin a constructive dialogue
>>> about
>>> how to protect art from exploitative appropriation. Phase two of the
>>> WAPO project, which was carried out in Linz in 1995, included
>>> collaboration with Norbert Nowotsch and Mark Olson and explored the
>>> creation of a Web-based platform and repository for the
>>> documentation
>>> and disclosure of art ideas. A supplementary text about the WAPO
>>> proposed the act of bartering as a potential way of exposing the
>>> underpinnings of ownership and valuation to better understand
>>> communication, meaning, and agreement in relation to exchange
>>> value."
>>>
>>> Schmitz's project also explored the concept of self-ownership.
>>>
>>> Please explore the site, especially the history of the project.
>>> WAPO, http://www01.zkm.de/~wapo/index.html.
>>>
>>> I have asked Lisa Schmitz to join our discussion on YASMIN and she
>>> will come online toward the end of the week.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/2/09, murat germen <muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu> wrote:
>>>> i would like to add couple of things...
>>>>
>>>> contemporary conceptual art rests heavily on ideas as we know. it's
>>>> not the craft in the work but the idea usually that makes the work
>>>> valuable these days (i personally value craft as well, in
>>>> addition to
>>>> "the" idea by the way). art market is an amazingly active market,
>>>> even
>>>> in the days of economical crisis the amount of sales and activity
>>>> is
>>>> surprisingly substantial. the simple equation goes like this: art
>>>> depends on idea, art has a market value, then artistic idea has a
>>>> market value too (sometimes millions of dollars) and it has to be
>>>> legally protected somehow.
>>>>
>>>> i visited paris photo last year, japan was the guest country.
>>>> there is
>>>> one japanese photographer (among others) that i really like;
>>>> hiroshi
>>>> sugimoto. he is especially known with some very minimal seascapes
>>>> (http://www.sugimotohiroshi.com/seascape.html
>>>> ). sugimoto sells very well, i saw a photo from the seascape series
>>>> which was around 70.000 euros and it had 5 red dots on it. when i
>>>> was
>>>> walking through thousands of images, one seascape photo caught my
>>>> attention in another booth and it looked very much like a sugimoto
>>>> photo. i approached to see details, saw it was somebody else's and
>>>> felt pretty awkward. this particular style is sugimoto's
>>>> signature, it
>>>> is in a way a reserved slot in these circles and producing
>>>> something
>>>> very similar to it, is taking advantage of the commercial
>>>> potential of
>>>> the particular expression style. yes, everybody can take sea
>>>> photos;
>>>> but there are tons of other ways to deal with sea and water...
>>>>
>>>> i am not claiming at all that artistic idea is a more worthwhile
>>>> invention than other "types" of inventions that made our lives more
>>>> easy, pleasant, rich, etc.; but artistic creation, though not
>>>> indispensable and vital, is something that can make our lives
>>>> different, enjoyable, excited at times. since creation is directly
>>>> linked with idea, there should be some sort of a right protection
>>>> process involved within the art world. but i cannot at this moment
>>>> propose a particular protection system since i am not
>>>> knowledgeable at
>>>> all in law...
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>> murat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <<< +90 532 473 8970 (gsm mobile)
>>>> <<< muratgermen@gmail.com
>>>> <<< http://www.muratgermen.com
>>>> <<< http://www.flickr.com/photos/muratgermen/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 01.Mar.2009, at 23:52, robert.thill@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your comments, Bronac.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, conceptual art practices and patents are not the same
>>>>> thing. I
>>>>> hope that my introduction did not confuse or conflate them.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my statement, I began by describing my area of research,
>>>>> which is
>>>>> the intersections between patents and contemporary art.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the paragraph about artist as inventors, I do not mention
>>>>> patents.
>>>>> The series of quotes by the artist Jakob Fenger of Superflex
>>>>> speak to
>>>>> parallels between inventing and art-making; he is not referring to
>>>>> patents. His comments address our discussion's topic of artists as
>>>>> inventors, which he links through creativity.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I will add here that Superflex did secure patents for
>>>>> their
>>>>> biogas system. Nevertheless, according to Fenger, it was not
>>>>> intentionally an integral part of the work's concept. The driving
>>>>> force for Superflex's patenting was to engage investors in their
>>>>> project. At that time (about a decade ago), investors were
>>>>> demanding
>>>>> an intellectual property position. In an e-mail message on 3
>>>>> February
>>>>> 2009, Fenger describes the situation and references the related
>>>>> shift
>>>>> in their newer work, which engages intellectual property from a
>>>>> significantly different vantage point, he wrote: "If we were to
>>>>> start
>>>>> out developing the biogas system today, we work quite differently
>>>>> ('copy-shop,' 'free beer,' 'copy right,' etc.) and we do not see
>>>>> any
>>>>> thread in people copying our system."
>>>>>
>>>>> I am glad to offer examples of artworks that deliberately
>>>>> attempt to
>>>>> integrate patent and art concepts as the discussion continues. I
>>>>> also
>>>>> think the idea of examining the role of design is interesting.
>>>>> However, as we begin the dialogue, I think it might be
>>>>> productive to
>>>>> keep the discussion more broadly on the topic of artists as
>>>>> inventors.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/1/09, Bronac Ferran <bronacferran@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Interesting discussion and I would like to add some comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is quite provocative and dangerous to conflate
>>>>>> conceptual art
>>>>>> practice with the notion of a patent (which is a legal device)
>>>>>> or a
>>>>>> trademark (similar).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I attended a talk with a representative of Superflex a few weeks
>>>>>> ago at
>>>>>> South London Gallery which also had a lawyer who has done some
>>>>>> great work
>>>>>> with radical art - Daniel McClean. Some of these issues and
>>>>>> questions were
>>>>>> covered but at no stage was there a straightforward conflation of
>>>>>> patenting
>>>>>> with concepts - obviously what Superflex have done is go beyond
>>>>>> concept into
>>>>>> production of goods and services for sale which of course then
>>>>>> leads into
>>>>>> realisation of objects within a market (with all the legal
>>>>>> systems
>>>>>> thereby
>>>>>> implied).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope that some of the parsing apart of this kind of conflation
>>>>>> can be
>>>>>> activated within the process of this Yasmin discussion - and that
>>>>>> we may
>>>>>> also put a finger on some examples where artistic 'invention' has
>>>>>> led to
>>>>>> patenting (as the list is very small at present). We should also
>>>>>> take into
>>>>>> account the role of design which has a much clearer and much more
>>>>>> straightforward relationship, here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all best wishes
>>>>>> Bronac
>>>>>> www.boundaryobject.org .
>>>>>> http://uk.youtube.com/iderca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2009/3/1 <robert.thill@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Yasminers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish to thank Roger Malina for the opportunity to moderate the
>>>>>>> discussion on artists as inventors and our six accomplished
>>>>>>> discussants for their participation: Derek Hales, Sylvie
>>>>>>> Lacerte,
>>>>>>> Arantxa Mendiharat, Hideki Nakazawa, Barbara U. Schmidt, and
>>>>>>> Colette
>>>>>>> Tron.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My interest in artists as inventors stems from my curiosity
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> intersections between contemporary art and utility patents. I
>>>>>>> discovered through research that this seemingly narrow terrain
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> actually an expansive area, which could encompass a wide range
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> practices that went far beyond artists' patents. For instance,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> could include elements as diverse as the novel achievements of
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> innovator whose self-patent works were reclassified as
>>>>>>> "visionary"
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> "outsider" art (William W. Adkins) and a patent institution that
>>>>>>> collects contemporary art and displays it in the workplace
>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>> progressive idea of stimulating discussion, productivity, and
>>>>>>> integration (the European Patent Office).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, the topic of artists as inventors is focused on the
>>>>>>> relationship between the roles and practices that are conjured
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> terms. To this end, I will share comments on the subject by the
>>>>>>> artist
>>>>>>> Jakob Fenger, who is a member of Superflex, which invented
>>>>>>> (with Jan
>>>>>>> Mallan) a biogas system. In a conversation via Skype on 12
>>>>>>> February
>>>>>>> 2009, Fenger told me that "all good artists are inventors,"
>>>>>>> adding
>>>>>>> that "a concept for a piece is like an invention," and that in
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> opinion there is "no difference between inventing and art-
>>>>>>> making,"
>>>>>>> referencing the creative process as the link between these two
>>>>>>> activities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on the topic of artists as
>>>>>>> inventors throughout March.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert Thill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>>>> subscribe to.
>>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail
>>>>>>> address,
>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> enter
>>>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked.
>>>>>>> Click on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options
>>>>>>> page").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>>> subscribe to. In
>>>>>> the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>>> name, and
>>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>>> enter your
>>>>>> e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked.
>>>>>> Click on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>
>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
>>>>> mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
>>>>> the page.
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
>>>>> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will
>>>>> appear
>>>>> ("options page").
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>
>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>> subscribe to. In
>>>> the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>> name, and
>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>> enter your
>>>> e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>> on the
>>>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find
>>>> the "Set
>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>
>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>
>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
>>> mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
>>> the page.
>>>
>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
>>> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will
>>> appear ("options page").
>>>
>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>
>> David Haley BA(Hons) MA FRSA
>>
>> Senior Research Fellow
>> Director, A&E [art&ecology] research unit
>> MA Art As Environment Programme Leader
>> SEA: Social & Environmental Arts Research Centre
>> MIRIAD
>> Manchester Metropolitan University
>> Righton Building, Cavendish Street,
>> Manchester M15 6 BG
>>
>> T: +44 (0)161 247 1093
>> F: +44 (0)161 2476870
>> M: 07725 405 365
>> W: www.artdes.mmu.ac.uk/profile/dhaley
>> W: www.miriad.mmu.ac.uk/artandecology
>>
>>
>> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you
>> should read the Manchester Metropolitan University's email
>> disclaimer available on its website
>> http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer "
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
>> mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
>> the page.
>>
>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
>> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear
>> ("options page").
>>
>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-
> mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
> the page.
>
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear
> ("options page").
>
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
====
Paul Brown - based in Germany Jan - Feb 2009
mailto:paul@paul-brown.com == http://www.paul-brown.com
UK Mobile +44 (0)794 104 8228 == USA fax +1 309 216 9900
Skype paul-g-brown
====
Artist in Residence, compArt Project - Bremen University
====
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
