Rangoli is a popular form of art, usually drawn with sand on the
threshold to the home. Although the images are often very intricate
and magnificent, this 'art' and act of worship is swept away and
renewed each day. Another word, still spoken in contemporary Hindi
according to Vandana Shiva, comes from the Rig Vedas and is the route
of the word 'art', via the Greek word, 'erete', is 'rta'. Rta means
the dynamic process by which the whole cosmos continues to be
created, virtuously.
Says something about different value systems?
All the best
David
On 3 Mar 2009, at 00:53, robert.thill@gmail.com wrote:
> Interesting and vivid points, Murat.
>
> I think the short answer to part of your final statement that "there
> should be some sort of a right protection process involved within the
> art world" is that copyrights can provide protection for art.
>
> Since the topic of this discussion was partially inspired by the book
> "Artists as Inventors / Inventors as Artists" (eds. Dieter Daniels and
> [discussant] Barbara U. Schmidt), I thought I would draw on an idea in
> the text to bring out an aspect of the topic you have raised.
>
> In the introduction a kind of conclusion is reached that there "exists
> no mirror-image symmetry between the social roles of the artist and
> the inventor." The example given to illustrate the point is a quote
> from Billy Klüver: "But if a person says he or she is an artist, one
> can't say to that person: 'You are not an artist.' You are not allowed
> to say that." The text makes the point that "this popular
> understanding of the term means that being an artist resists external
> definition, whereas the label 'inventor,' though indeed not the
> designation of a profession per se, can nevertheless be substantiated
> by means of objective criteria such as patents." (p. 12-13).
>
> While this set of relationships is framed in popular understandings of
> roles and brings up a key point in the book's thesis (and the text
> also warns us about generalizations here), it omits the fact that an
> artist does have an objective criteria to substantiate his or her role
> and work, which is a copyright. Copyright is the artist's equivalent
> to an inventor's patent. (This statement is not meant to imply that
> there are not inventors and artists who don't participate in these two
> systems or who particularly value them in terms of their own
> self-definitions.)
>
> However, if what I write is accurate and these are indeed two
> objective ways in which artists and inventors can substantiate their
> work and roles, the more revealing question might be why are these two
> systems of intellectual property protection so distinctly different?
> Why are the terms and values not reciprocal? And should they be?
>
> The artist Lisa Schmitz has explored this contradiction by proposing,
> in 1993, a new institution to be named the World Artistic Property
> Organization (WAPO), which would operate as a patent-office equivalent
> for art ideas.
>
> Here is a section of a text that I wrote about the WAPO project with a
> link to the online version (I have stripped out the endnotes).
>
> "Most directly, the WAPO installation pondered the distinctions
> between art and invention through the differences in the legal
> protections of copyright and patents, asking who benefits from the
> disparities and how artists might begin a constructive dialogue about
> how to protect art from exploitative appropriation. Phase two of the
> WAPO project, which was carried out in Linz in 1995, included
> collaboration with Norbert Nowotsch and Mark Olson and explored the
> creation of a Web-based platform and repository for the documentation
> and disclosure of art ideas. A supplementary text about the WAPO
> proposed the act of bartering as a potential way of exposing the
> underpinnings of ownership and valuation to better understand
> communication, meaning, and agreement in relation to exchange value."
>
> Schmitz's project also explored the concept of self-ownership.
>
> Please explore the site, especially the history of the project.
> WAPO, http://www01.zkm.de/~wapo/index.html.
>
> I have asked Lisa Schmitz to join our discussion on YASMIN and she
> will come online toward the end of the week.
>
> Best,
>
> Robert
>
>
>
> On 3/2/09, murat germen <muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu> wrote:
>> i would like to add couple of things...
>>
>> contemporary conceptual art rests heavily on ideas as we know. it's
>> not the craft in the work but the idea usually that makes the work
>> valuable these days (i personally value craft as well, in addition to
>> "the" idea by the way). art market is an amazingly active market,
>> even
>> in the days of economical crisis the amount of sales and activity is
>> surprisingly substantial. the simple equation goes like this: art
>> depends on idea, art has a market value, then artistic idea has a
>> market value too (sometimes millions of dollars) and it has to be
>> legally protected somehow.
>>
>> i visited paris photo last year, japan was the guest country.
>> there is
>> one japanese photographer (among others) that i really like; hiroshi
>> sugimoto. he is especially known with some very minimal seascapes
>> (http://www.sugimotohiroshi.com/seascape.html
>> ). sugimoto sells very well, i saw a photo from the seascape series
>> which was around 70.000 euros and it had 5 red dots on it. when i was
>> walking through thousands of images, one seascape photo caught my
>> attention in another booth and it looked very much like a sugimoto
>> photo. i approached to see details, saw it was somebody else's and
>> felt pretty awkward. this particular style is sugimoto's
>> signature, it
>> is in a way a reserved slot in these circles and producing something
>> very similar to it, is taking advantage of the commercial
>> potential of
>> the particular expression style. yes, everybody can take sea photos;
>> but there are tons of other ways to deal with sea and water...
>>
>> i am not claiming at all that artistic idea is a more worthwhile
>> invention than other "types" of inventions that made our lives more
>> easy, pleasant, rich, etc.; but artistic creation, though not
>> indispensable and vital, is something that can make our lives
>> different, enjoyable, excited at times. since creation is directly
>> linked with idea, there should be some sort of a right protection
>> process involved within the art world. but i cannot at this moment
>> propose a particular protection system since i am not
>> knowledgeable at
>> all in law...
>>
>> regards
>> murat
>>
>>
>> <<< +90 532 473 8970 (gsm mobile)
>> <<< muratgermen@gmail.com
>> <<< http://www.muratgermen.com
>> <<< http://www.flickr.com/photos/muratgermen/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 01.Mar.2009, at 23:52, robert.thill@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for your comments, Bronac.
>>>
>>> Yes, conceptual art practices and patents are not the same thing. I
>>> hope that my introduction did not confuse or conflate them.
>>>
>>> In my statement, I began by describing my area of research, which is
>>> the intersections between patents and contemporary art.
>>>
>>> In the paragraph about artist as inventors, I do not mention
>>> patents.
>>> The series of quotes by the artist Jakob Fenger of Superflex
>>> speak to
>>> parallels between inventing and art-making; he is not referring to
>>> patents. His comments address our discussion's topic of artists as
>>> inventors, which he links through creativity.
>>>
>>> However, I will add here that Superflex did secure patents for their
>>> biogas system. Nevertheless, according to Fenger, it was not
>>> intentionally an integral part of the work's concept. The driving
>>> force for Superflex's patenting was to engage investors in their
>>> project. At that time (about a decade ago), investors were demanding
>>> an intellectual property position. In an e-mail message on 3
>>> February
>>> 2009, Fenger describes the situation and references the related
>>> shift
>>> in their newer work, which engages intellectual property from a
>>> significantly different vantage point, he wrote: "If we were to
>>> start
>>> out developing the biogas system today, we work quite differently
>>> ('copy-shop,' 'free beer,' 'copy right,' etc.) and we do not see any
>>> thread in people copying our system."
>>>
>>> I am glad to offer examples of artworks that deliberately attempt to
>>> integrate patent and art concepts as the discussion continues. I
>>> also
>>> think the idea of examining the role of design is interesting.
>>> However, as we begin the dialogue, I think it might be productive to
>>> keep the discussion more broadly on the topic of artists as
>>> inventors.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/1/09, Bronac Ferran <bronacferran@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Interesting discussion and I would like to add some comments.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is quite provocative and dangerous to conflate
>>>> conceptual art
>>>> practice with the notion of a patent (which is a legal device) or a
>>>> trademark (similar).
>>>>
>>>> I attended a talk with a representative of Superflex a few weeks
>>>> ago at
>>>> South London Gallery which also had a lawyer who has done some
>>>> great work
>>>> with radical art - Daniel McClean. Some of these issues and
>>>> questions were
>>>> covered but at no stage was there a straightforward conflation of
>>>> patenting
>>>> with concepts - obviously what Superflex have done is go beyond
>>>> concept into
>>>> production of goods and services for sale which of course then
>>>> leads into
>>>> realisation of objects within a market (with all the legal systems
>>>> thereby
>>>> implied).
>>>>
>>>> I hope that some of the parsing apart of this kind of conflation
>>>> can be
>>>> activated within the process of this Yasmin discussion - and that
>>>> we may
>>>> also put a finger on some examples where artistic 'invention' has
>>>> led to
>>>> patenting (as the list is very small at present). We should also
>>>> take into
>>>> account the role of design which has a much clearer and much more
>>>> straightforward relationship, here.
>>>>
>>>> all best wishes
>>>> Bronac
>>>> www.boundaryobject.org .
>>>> http://uk.youtube.com/iderca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2009/3/1 <robert.thill@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Yasminers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I wish to thank Roger Malina for the opportunity to moderate the
>>>>> discussion on artists as inventors and our six accomplished
>>>>> discussants for their participation: Derek Hales, Sylvie Lacerte,
>>>>> Arantxa Mendiharat, Hideki Nakazawa, Barbara U. Schmidt, and
>>>>> Colette
>>>>> Tron.
>>>>>
>>>>> My interest in artists as inventors stems from my curiosity about
>>>>> the
>>>>> intersections between contemporary art and utility patents. I
>>>>> discovered through research that this seemingly narrow terrain was
>>>>> actually an expansive area, which could encompass a wide range of
>>>>> practices that went far beyond artists' patents. For instance, it
>>>>> could include elements as diverse as the novel achievements of an
>>>>> innovator whose self-patent works were reclassified as "visionary"
>>>>> or
>>>>> "outsider" art (William W. Adkins) and a patent institution that
>>>>> collects contemporary art and displays it in the workplace with
>>>>> the
>>>>> progressive idea of stimulating discussion, productivity, and
>>>>> integration (the European Patent Office).
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the topic of artists as inventors is focused on the
>>>>> relationship between the roles and practices that are conjured by
>>>>> the
>>>>> terms. To this end, I will share comments on the subject by the
>>>>> artist
>>>>> Jakob Fenger, who is a member of Superflex, which invented
>>>>> (with Jan
>>>>> Mallan) a biogas system. In a conversation via Skype on 12
>>>>> February
>>>>> 2009, Fenger told me that "all good artists are inventors," adding
>>>>> that "a concept for a piece is like an invention," and that in his
>>>>> opinion there is "no difference between inventing and art-making,"
>>>>> referencing the creative process as the link between these two
>>>>> activities.
>>>>>
>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on the topic of artists as
>>>>> inventors throughout March.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert Thill
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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David Haley BA(Hons) MA FRSA
Senior Research Fellow
Director, A&E [art&ecology] research unit
MA Art As Environment Programme Leader
SEA: Social & Environmental Arts Research Centre
MIRIAD
Manchester Metropolitan University
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