Indeed, it must have been quite an amazing conference - many
challenges there. And you are absolutely right about Mcluhan not
having the all idea of how the Medium really would become the Message.
But please do not forget that McLuhan, after writting the chapter «The
Medium is the Massage», wrote a few years later, in 1967 «The Medium
is the Massage: An Inventory of Effects» with Quentin Fiore.
This Massage effect was only slightly guessed then, but we all know
that it has become a major item in global and individual allienation
via media exposure. This massage effect also makes art, science and
technology become almost «innocent» has it was pointed before, but it
is an illusion.
Vítor
Citando Jared Smith <smithjrw@comcast.net>:
> Roger,
>
> What an interesting conference that must have been! It must have
> been a fascinating set of papers and discussions.
>
> I think you are probably right, and that the brain does probably
> function through a continuum of systems that run from one set of
> senses and the expressions that go with that one, to another, and so
> forth--and that the oral and written are situated in different areas
> of the brain, lighting up like islands in the ocean or like cities
> viewed at night from an airplane when they are individually
> stimulated. The poetic or creative thought may then be viewed as a
> flash of lightening or as a lone ship sailing with its lights on
> from one island across the darkness to another. And of course, the
> more neural pathways that can be forged between each island or set
> of islands, the more aha moments will arise. This would make sense
> since if we view the world from the perspective of each set of
> feelings/data sources we have, the greater "true" dimensionality we
> can see or feel in it. "visions" born of more senses have greater
> value in our flexibility, growth, and survivability.
>
> And of course, each new technological development--as with an
> interactive 3D form or any other which lets us see things in ways
> that have not been possible before greatly strengthens and enhances
> our ability. What Jason offers is a new set of eyes--and that leads
> to a new set of perception, especially when integrated within the
> framework of the other senses that have already been worked over.
> Keeping that overall integration in mind in the creative process is
> still important, however. Again...here another set of tension
> points, perhaps. It is important to see the whole from a 3D or
> larger perspective, but the flat linears that any one sense takes in
> on its own are also important. As with the Aeneid, we need a
> Virgil: and isn't it startling that such an ancient perspective
> would suddenly seem to appropriate to the current moment? Or, as
> with the Odyssey, we need a blind man who can see beyond us as a
> guide.
>
> Back to the continuum of sensory systems, though, that may explain
> why I've always found that the best way to stimulate creative
> thought--whether working on a research project or on an extended
> work of poetry--is to vary the routine and the sensory input. I
> will switch reading materials to a subject matter I'm not terribly
> familiar with, will switch from hiking in the mountains to attending
> ballgames, change the music I listen to, do everything I can to pick
> up new areas of stimulation that will "unsettle" the patterns that
> my perceptions have fallen into without regard to whether I think
> the new habits I'm trying to step into are either more or less
> sophisticated than those that I was already involved in. It's a
> matter of bringing as much to bear as one can--and then tapping
> one's associates on the shoulder, and saying not only what do you
> think, but also what do you do when you're not actively pursuing the
> matter at hand.
>
> I think that if we get all the continuum working at once, it will be
> extraordinary. What we have opened so far is probably well below
> our capability.
>
> Jared
>
>
>
> On 12/7/2010 4:18 AM, roger malina wrote:
>> Jared, Jason
>>
>> In response to this craft/vision discussion, I would like to inject
>> a transverse issue
>>
>> Last weekend I went to the Universals in Music conference here
>> in Aix en Provence
>> http://www.imera.fr/images/stories/PDF/musical_universals_program.pdf
>>
>> There was much interesting discussion connecting musicology,
>> sociology, neurobiology and cognitive science= and the ideological
>> linking of 'universals' to western colonialism seemed to dissipate with
>> the new emerging discussions in the cognitive sciences, computational
>> linguistics, and new anthropology
>>
>> One if the ideas that came up is that the brain probably functions
>> with a continuum of systems that go from oral and written language
>> to poetry to music rather than discrete functions the way we label them -
>> and that all of these are embodied- there was some discussion of
>> pre-natal cognition and the way babies construct all these various
>> communication strategies that range over the various kinds of
>> literary, musical, dance and performance- through interaction
>> with their mother before the age of three
>>
>> Perhaps one of the interesting things with 'new media poetry' is that
>> it provides new way of integrating diverse communicational modes-
>> that cross the boxes that we have put various kinds of artistic expression
>> in- opera and other multi media forms of course do this
>>
>> This gets me back to mcluhan and the medium is the message issue=
>> that oral poetry, written poetry and new media poetry in their
>> very structure carry with them certain 'visions' that are privileged over
>> others- which drives differing aesthetic agendas
>>
>> The scientific poetry of the nineteenth century that Lambert brought
>> up is maybe inconceivable in new media poetry because its tied
>> to the written literature that created both science and poetry at the time ?
>>
>> 21st century Science is becoming new media, so is poetry
>>
>> roger
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:42 AM, Jared Smith<smithjrw@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>> After visiting your site and thinking about it for a bit, I feel my earlier
>>> response was well-intentioned but inadequate. I think now that you were
>>> asking why there is tension between traditional poets and poets who work
>>> with digital methodologies, particularly with regard to the digital
>>> structural work you have designed.
>>>
>>> It's a novel and intricately structured concept as you lay it out on your
>>> website and on your YouTube video. There are in traditional poetry almost
>>> two basic schools of thought: those that think the craft (structuring) of
>>> the poem is most important; and those who conversely feel that the vision
>>> carried within that craft is what is most important. For those who see
>>> craft as most important in traditional poetry (sonnets, sestinas, etc.,)
>>> your form should be exciting and welcome as a new way to contain vision. I
>>> expect that many will be interested. For those who are more concerned with
>>> the Vision communication aspect, it will come slower because a number of
>>> them may feel that you are not really doing away with linearity with the
>>> structure, but are supplying data sets than can be interchanged just as
>>> sensory stimulus interchanges in the world we experience: these Vision type
>>> poets are likely to feel that what is most important in poetry is for the
>>> poet to know from his/her own vision which set of images/responses to offer
>>> rather than offer a menu for the reader to manipulate.
>>>
>>> Ultimately, of course, what matters is finding the best vehicle
>>> for what you
>>> (the poet) wishes to convey, or for what you wish to use words for. I
>>> would like to experience how you have delivered some of your finished poems
>>> using the technique you talk about. you give me much to think about, and I
>>> have shared your thoughts with others, who may contact you as well.
>>>
>>> Jared
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/5/2010 11:27 PM, Jason Nelson wrote:
>>>> I'm really curious as to the list's impressions of digital poetry.
>>>> Inherently digital poetry lives within the intersection of science and
>>>> poetry. Indeed it is an evolution of poetic ideas and expressions,
>>>> poetry unleashed from the artificial contraints of linearity and
>>>> -mono-dimensionality. So for example most of my works at
>>>> http://www.heliozoa.com explore how to recreate poetry within a
>>>> variety of complex interactions and orgranizations. And yet there is
>>>> certainly a conflict between the print/spoken word poet and the
>>>> digital creator.
>>>>
>>>> Why is this? Or not? Any thoughts?
>>>>
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