[Yasmin_discussions] last minute last day comment

Hi Yasminers

I have been reading your letters and also read Bronac's comment re my 1968 E=MC2 Poemcone. I thought I should add my own comment, if it isn't too late.

I began making Poem Machines (http://www.lilianelijn.com/archive/pom01.html) in 1962 while living in Paris. I had met the Greek magnetic sculptor Takis there and through him I met Sinclair Beiles, Gregory Corso, William Burroughs and my close friend and collaborator, Nazli Nour. I saw myself as an anti-poet, a young artist bored with conventional poetry. I wanted to split the word in the same way scientists had split the atom. I frequented the Science Museum (Musee de la Decouverte) having decided that the displays there were as interesting if not more than those at the Musee d'Art Contemporain, and was inspired by what may have been an early interferometer to make my first machine, which I called Vibrograph. It consisted of 2 revolving metal cylinders, on which I had painted 5 columns of parallel lines of slightly varying thickness. The 2 outer columns and the middle column were perpendicular to the ends of the cylinder, whereas in the remaining 2 columns the lines were t!
ilted all at the same angle and thus parallel to each other. When these two cylinders revolved, one saw a strange vibration and the black lines appeared coloured. On observing this, I reflected that letters were also made up of lines with the added capacity of becoming words. Minutes to Go had just been published. Cutting up text seemed to liberate both words and ideas through incongruous meetings. I realised that if I placed text, any text at all, on my metal cylinders and made them spin at different speeds, the carefully constructed sentences would be fractured and fragmented, words would be seen in unplanned contexts or perhaps not at all, become blurred vibrations, a new kind of poetic energy. I would be creating a continual kinetic cut-up. Nazli Nour was imediately seduced by the idea and offered her writings. ' Make my poems move'. It wasn't possible to use them in entirety since one poem might be 20 pages in length but Nazli gave me complete freedom to edit them as I!
wished so that they worked on the Poem Machines. Quite a few !
other po
ets asked me to use their poems but were reluctant for me to alter them. This wasn't possible because the media one uses always brings change. You cannot expect to put the same constructed sentences on a spinning drum that you might on a piece of paper. Leonard D. Marshall was another poet whose text I worked with. His poems were extremely short and often just right for my machines as in Sky Never Stops now in the collection of th National Art Library and the Victoria & Albert Museum. http://www.lilianelijn.com/archive/sky01.html Sometimes I would use my own texts as in Atomaction and Protons are Positive or the more recent http://www.lilianelijn.com/recent-poemcones.html.

I switched from using cylinders to using cones as the revolving forms because on a cone, the apparent speed of the words wrapped around them changed at different levels as the diameter of the cone increased or decreased. Another very interesting observation was the different way in which these kinetic poems were read or perceived by the naked eye or by the lens of a 16 mm camera or a video camera for that matter. This can be seen in my film What is the Sound of One Hand Clapping? but to see the difference, you would have to see a Poemcone in real time through your own eyes. http://www.lilianelijn.com/what-is-the-sound-of-one-hand-clapping-video.html

In the last two years, I have made Poemdrums in which readable text becomes light through changes in speed of the drums onto which the text is inscribed. Most recently, I have been experimenting with laser cutting letters onto nested drums revolving in opposite directions at different speeds. I am interested in how the eye/brain adapts to the challenge of making sense of the floating word fragments and eventually actually reading the ungraspable text.
http://www.lilianelijn.com/faster-than-birds-poemdrum-video.html

By the way, the anecdote that Bronac mentioned re my meeting with Joao Maquiego was quite amusing. I had seen him on tv speaking with a colleague about their research into the early universe and heard him say that they thought one way of explaining certain unexplained features was to alter the constant C = the speed of light. I thought that was very exciting and sent him an email. He replied saying he had looked at my site and liked my work. Could he visit my studio? Naturally. The first piece he noticed as he entered my office was E=MC3 and he said: 'I see you realte to our ideas.' I replied, ' Yes but I made that in 1968.'

Wishing you all a very adventurous and positively luminous 2011!

Liliane

Liliane Lijn
www.lilianelijn.com
07770350633
02088095636

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[Yasmin_discussions] happy new year on YASMIN

Dear Yasminers

We are bringing our Science, Technology, Art and POETRY discussion
to a close for now= and thank all the participants to this discussion;

I would note that some of us felt that some of the discussion was really
not tied to the links of poetry to science or new technologies, which
was the focus of the discussion, and that some of the posts were rather
polemical rather than deliberative and constructive; As we initiate
new discussions in
the new year, we hope we can focus on the connections between
the arts, sciences and technologies on YASMIN= and bring to bear in
particular perspectives directly relevant to the mediterranean region.

The YASMIN moderators are currently discussing two possible new
discussion topics for the new year:

Pier Luigi Capucci in Italy is developing an idea on ' UN-SIMULATABLE'
which would revisit the discussion last year he led with Jennifer
Kanary on simulation.

Guillermo Munoz is working up an idea on how the economic
crises in the mediterranean region are beginning to have
strong impacts on funding in arts and science, and how in particular
experimental programs in art/science/technology are being hit in
particular. We dont often get into the this kind of more political/
economic discussion but we are living in difficult times and often
both art and science are viewed as secondary things in times
of economic crisis. it would be interesting to know of new ways
of imagining art/science in times of crisis.

If anyone on YASMIN would like to propose a topic for discussion
in 2011 contact me at rmalina(at))alum.mit.edu

If anyone would like to become a YASMIN moderator or correspondents
we welcome volunteers !!

And best wishes to all for the end of calendar year 2010 !!

Roger Malina
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[Yasmin_discussions] Science, Art & Poetry

*Science becomes poetry when poetry finds philosophy,*
is where my timeless zone finds its context.

I am a graduate from Gerrit Rietveld Academie in Amsterdam-Fine Arts-Glass,
while my first degree is in Interior Architecture, Product Design and
Applied Arts
from ATEI Athens. Ten years ago i have been taking an exchange in Denmarks
Designskole, where i studied on glass and light and physically started to
work
with the texture of glass.
Getting away from the utilitarian world, i have been observing the
intermediary space of conscious and subconscious where the golden ratio
shall
base its sense. would that be that the space where Inter-cultural
dialogues; of natural and cultural history of
each 'individual', state and rhythm of globalization and the super
efficiency of it all could
ground its mean?

bang bang

I have been reading and enjoying all this thread a lot. and developing
my query about language and poerty and art, and fallacy or not and
the paradox of it all!From the Nicomechian Marco's reference
to the live thread of Paul and Jared and Simon's and....

as an artist i have generated a principle :
to scrutinize the fallacy of Art becoming my on genepig. Amoongst all
materials and methods i choose the properties of glass structure as a
'brain lens'. Wish i was an Art Physician

Fragmental Memory 'makes me' enlight and shutter - remember
and forget so to be able to write the parts which gradually take the
form of letters. Sometimes the black holes moving in my brain do not
leave space for reflection of the memory thus they cover
part of knowledge and reveal new structures, and shapes
that could not have been present without past insertions, but would rather
be able to
correspond to the fact that they are still new structures since they have a
different time zone,
hence we have decided hundredth s of years ago to start counting down chaos

In the begin of the thread there has been a reference about the word
understanding, trying to

'explain' *'understanding equals non sense' *
*
*
*in reference to Deleuze and Plato and Russel though** recalling Buddha's
organic sense*
*
*
If mathematics is a coded poetry; language is a code of symbols as
a form of action
<http://theggroup.info/images.html>
*In the Digital Age; Oracle as Language or Language as Oracle

Motion creates change of Form;

"A New Form", every single moment of 'Time'.

If time is a passage of elements, thus it forms an acting shape

Shape of space forming nature of an Organism

cells of the organism, stepping through time reforming its shape

Whilst space is organic nature

Does nature equals logic[1]? Is that an existing formula;

Language of a complex organism is been created

while logic is phrased through 'sentences' of choices and motion

An audiovisual algorithm, forming its logic...

Senses as parameters[2] of the 'Organic Logic'

Organic Logic formed through a synthesis of 'incurious incidents', creating
a language[3]

Language formed from audio and visuals framed by stories of probability
space[4]

Do 'incurious incidents' describe facts of 'non probability'?

Is synthesis of 'non probability' elements creating curious incidents?

Time 'controls' the synthesis of the incurious incidents leading curious
ones;

Cell divisions as incurious incidents and its reflection as curious ones

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]The word derives from Greek λογική (logike), fem. of λογικός (logikos),
"possessed of reason, *
*intellectual, dialectical, argumentative", from λόγος logos, "word,
thought, idea, argument, account,*
* reason, or principle"

[2] a parameter is a quantity that defines certain characteristics of
systems or functions. A unit of length *
*that didn't quite **make it as an SI unit of measurement. It is however
based on the SI unit of length, the meter, *
*it is just not quite big enough to pass a meter in the real world. *
*
[3] Language as Oracle, or Oracle as Language?

[4] A probability space, in probability theory, is the conventional
mathematical model of randomness. *
*This mathematical object, sometimes called also probability triple,
formalizes three interrelated ideas *
*by three mathematical notions. First, a sample point (called also
elementary event), --- something to *
*be chosen at random (outcome of experiment, state of nature, possibility
etc.) Second, an event, -*
*something that will occur or not, depending on the chosen elementary event.
Third, the probability of an event.*

*In the Digital Age; Oracle as Language or Language as Oracle*
was written while we where composing 'Oracle'
http://theggroup.info/images.html, through e-MobiLArt Lab - January 2009

an on looker to the possibility of communication,
scattered between action and function with
wish for sense to my incoherent lines

With best regards
from snow-stared Amsterdam
and with happy wishes for X-mas and a super stared New Year

Amiar Lalou
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Science, Technology, Art, POETRY

The respect that science and technology get wouldn't have anything to
do with the amount of capital invested in them would it? Or is that
just another indicator of the power of discipline and direction? Will
poetry get get more money flung at it once it narrows its definition?

Starving artists are rare. Most poets earn enough for lunch, though
day jobs help. In some cultures, they even get respect as a side dish.

--- Paul

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Jared Smith <smithjrw@comcast.net> wrote:
> The problem with broad definitions is that they communicate nothing: they
> lack the discipline and direction that you require of science and
> technology.  That is why poetry lacks the kind of respect disciplined
> science receives, and harking back on our converation, why a poet cannot get
> a lunch for his poems but a scientist can.  Oppenheimer would not have
> called Mein Kampf a poem, nor would he have called Jihad a poem--though
> there are rhetorical and oratorical devices within each.  You are being
> sloppy in your wording.
>
> Jared
>
>
>
> On 12/13/2010 6:49 AM, Simon Biggs wrote:
>>
>> A poem that starts a war can be called an info-bomb. I like to employ a
>> broad definition of poetry and poetics. Main Kampf has its poetic
>> elements.
>>
>> So does the rhetoric of Jihad. Perhaps even more so. Arabic is an
>> intrinsically evocative language. These are poems that start wars.
>>
>> Anything can be a weapon and what was intended as a weapon can be
>> anything.
>>
>> I thought that was the point of a flower in the barrel of a gun, or the
>> famous lyric of the Beatles:
>>
>> Happiness (is a warm gun)
>> Bang Bang Shoot Shoot
>> Happiness (is a warm gun, momma)
>> Bang Bang Shoot Shoot
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13/12/2010 07:25, "Paul Hertz"<ignotus@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> Jared,
>>>
>>> Let me see if I understand. Psalm 137 ("By the waters of Babylon we sat
>>> down
>>> and wept"), a beautiful poem of longing and exile, which ends:
>>>
>>> "Oh daughter of Babylon, you devastator!
>>> Happy shall he be who requites you
>>> with what you have done to us!
>>> Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
>>> and dashes them against the rock!"
>>>
>>> would evidently be a "lower" form of art, since it clearly seeks to draw
>>> on
>>> the passions of the people to whom it is addressed and ends with what
>>> looks
>>> pretty unequivocally like a call to infanticide.
>>>
>>> You say that a poem has never started a war. If starting a war is matter
>>> of
>>> pulling triggers (or notching arrows, or dropping bombs) I suppose a poem
>>> never did this. A poem also never made lunch. But poetry and all other
>>> art
>>> is formed by the society in which it arises. Poems and language propagate
>>> the values of the cultures that produce them.
>>>
>>> If the Iliad glories in war, does it not then also have a responsibility
>>> in
>>> continuing wars? It may not immediately incite its listeners to take up
>>> arms, but it certainly propagates in them the core beliefs of a society,
>>> including the notion that war is heroic. We could well hold it guilty of
>>> starting many wars, just through propagating that one great lie "war is
>>> heroic."
>>>
>>> It is only our distance from the culture from which the Iliad sprang that
>>> allows us to consider it dispassionately, as what I suppose you may mean
>>> by
>>> "higher" art. Otherwise, we'd hear it as part of our own education as
>>> warriors or as mothers and wives of warriors. It is a great poem not
>>> because
>>> it is not calculated to incite the passions and lead people in a
>>> particular
>>> direction, but for the grandeur and scope of the language through which
>>> it
>>> does that very thing.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you conceive of "lower" poetry as that which is specifically
>>> intended as an instrument to incite, rather like a military march or a
>>> patriotic painting. Well, certainly there is a lot of "official" art that
>>> is
>>> truly bad, but I contend that that there is also plenty of great art that
>>> does incite, and quite consciously. So yes, perhaps a poem never started
>>> a
>>> war, but some poems keep war going. And occasionally a poem pays for
>>> lunch,
>>> in the style of Cyrano de Bergerac.
>>>
>>> The notion that it is desirable that a poem might "lie beyond such
>>> concerns"
>>> as inciting passion or action is itself a cultural attitude, and not
>>> something inherent in poetry as practiced through the ages. You may
>>> prefer
>>> poems that reflect that attitude or allow you to practice it, but that
>>> does
>>> not mean there is one cultural stream of "true" or "high" art producing
>>> dispassionate poetry and another of "low" or "false" art ruled by
>>> passion.
>>>
>>> Perhaps I misconstrue what you mean by these dichotomies of true/false or
>>> high/low, but in any case they strike me as implying a value judgment
>>> that I
>>> don't believe I share. I rather think I prefer poems that attempt to sway
>>> me. I enjoy being swayed, all the more if the workings of poetic language
>>> do
>>> so with a subtlety I can only decipher after the swaying.
>>>
>>> There are only choices about how to use language, not choices about its
>>> outcomes. By its very refusal to take sides, a dispassionate poem may be
>>> complicit in social evils--or it may open the way to settle a dispute. We
>>> may choose to use language passionately or dispassionately, to express
>>> our
>>> desire for peace, for war, for quietude or for lunch. We have done so for
>>> ages. There are no guarantees that language will have the effect we
>>> desire.
>>> It's that malleable. For better or worse, we ourselves are that
>>> malleable.
>>> We make our choices and hope for the best.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>>
>>> -- Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Jared Smith<smithjrw@comcast.net>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I would agree with most of what you say, and hope that you have not
>>>> labeled
>>>> me as one who would claim that poetry and art are "Innocent."  Indeed,
>>>> they
>>>> are not.  In speaking of true of false art, I meant to speak of false
>>>> art as
>>>> that which is consciously inspired or calculated to incite a particular
>>>> reaction by drawing upon the passions of a people and leading them in a
>>>> chosen direction--to war or to peace or wherever.  Perhaps rather than
>>>> calling that a false art, I would have been clearer if I had called it a
>>>> "lower" art or poetry.  A "higher" art of poetry, or as I unfortunately
>>>> termed it, a "true" poetry would be that which is as  you say "not
>>>> innocent"
>>>> and not guilty, but partakes from all that is about us and brings all
>>>> that
>>>> it can perceive to bear on its experience.  It is not innocent nor
>>>> guilty,
>>>> but lies outside and beyond such concerns.
>>>>
>>>> I think that we are in agreement on that, and that it is only the short
>>>> responses one is generally  allowed in email discussions that may have
>>>> confused that issue--at least that my short response may have confused
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> What I was trying to address in Ramon's email, however, was that neither
>>>> art nor poetry start wars--and in fact, I believe they guard against
>>>> wars
>>>> because of their inclusion and giving voice to the feelings and passions
>>>> of
>>>> the people who create them within the society.  I might simply have said
>>>> in
>>>> response to Ramon that Poetry is very powerful.  But if one thinks it
>>>> causes
>>>> wars, one is greatly overestimating of misunderstanding that power.  I
>>>> challenge anyone to name a war that was started by a poem.
>>>>
>>>> Jared
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/7/2010 3:39 PM, Paul Hertz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for the late entry, but I can't let this go unchallenged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ramon Guardans said: "science and poetry are also indispensable
>>>>> components
>>>>> of all massacres, wars and monstrosities that the human group is
>>>>> putting
>>>>> together today and has in the course of history."
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is only to say that culture is not innocent. If it
>>>>> pretends
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> *represent* all of human experience--and it does--then it seems to me
>>>>> that
>>>>> it must *partake* of all human experience, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> And how can we ascribe innocence to poetry, art, science or any other
>>>>> cultural manifestation we create if we cannot ascribe it to ourselves?
>>>>> I
>>>>> put
>>>>> it to you that no person is innocent: however much we attach the
>>>>> symbology
>>>>> of innocence to babies, women, clouds, souls, poetry or painting, each
>>>>> symbol and each reality remains stubbornly a part of society as a
>>>>> whole.
>>>>> There is no innocence apart. There are choices that lead to peace and
>>>>> dialog
>>>>> and there are choices that lead to lies and degradation, but once we
>>>>> claim
>>>>> our place in human society there are no choices that lead to innocence,
>>>>> any
>>>>>
>>>>> more than there are social movements that will take us home to utopia.
>>>>> There
>>>>> are only choices that will improve our collective lives or make them
>>>>> worse,
>>>>>
>>>>> and art may lie in helping us to distinguish them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Art is stained with living--or it isn't very good art.
>>>>>
>>>>> I imagine that Ernesto Cardenal spoke in this spirit when he declared
>>>>> that
>>>>> the poet "defends the people through language." Not because he offered
>>>>> innocence in his poems, but because he was ready to commit to living
>>>>> his
>>>>> choices through his words.
>>>>>
>>>>> And this undoubtedly means that art sometimes offers bad choices,
>>>>> aesthetics
>>>>> of death, celebrations of infamy. I have only to contemplate the
>>>>> several
>>>>> poetic traditions Ramon Menendez-Pidal gathered in his *Flor Nueva de
>>>>> Romances Viejas*, a wonderful anthology of medieval romances from
>>>>> Spain,
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> realize that there is great art coming out of bitter conflict, and
>>>>> taking
>>>>> sides in such a way that the hero among the Mozarabes may be the
>>>>> villain
>>>>> among the Christians, and vice-versa. You may say these poems are only
>>>>> innocent tales--as though history in any form could be innocent--but
>>>>> may I
>>>>> suggest that they are both high art and poisoned by murderous,
>>>>> fratricidal
>>>>> war? They may not stir blood to anger now, but I'd wager once they did.
>>>>> No, you won't get away with claiming some special innocence for art,
>>>>> especially if it requires you make distinctions between false and true
>>>>> art.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is art that reaches out to us, as you say, but there is also art
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>> intends to stir our rage. Trying to cage it in a "true/false" dichotomy
>>>>> will
>>>>> not suffice. It is language itself, the very material of which both
>>>>> your
>>>>> true and false poetry are made, that bears the stain. This holds, too,
>>>>> of
>>>>> other arts, though they do no operate with words. The compromise with
>>>>> communication is the compromise to be misunderstood, to be wrong, and
>>>>> to
>>>>> even to commit criminal acts. Art is many things, but it is not
>>>>> innocent.
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>> dare say the same of science.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, if you ask me whether I believe that artists and musicians and
>>>>> poets
>>>>> are generally striving for peace and understanding--if you ask me
>>>>> whether
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>> believe that culture offers a pathway for human beings to learn to live
>>>>> together--well, I will answer with a resounding YES. But is not at all
>>>>> the
>>>>> same as ascribing innocence to art.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Ramon is spot on when he says that science and poetry are
>>>>> compromised not only with those aspects of culture that we hold to be
>>>>> positive, but with the negative as well. That is certainly how I read
>>>>> what
>>>>> he wrote. I really don't think we can study or perform art or science
>>>>> in
>>>>> all
>>>>> their depth and breadth without that realization. Without that
>>>>> realization,
>>>>>
>>>>> our choices of what we believe science and art should do into the
>>>>> future
>>>>> cannot be made as they must be made--with eyes open.
>>>>>
>>>>> My apologies to the apologists of innocence if I give offense, but,
>>>>> worthy
>>>>> people, you are mistaken if you think art or science are innocent.
>>>>>
>>>>> best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Jared Smith<smithjrw@comcast.net>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Ramon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Science may take part in the formation of warfare, as for example in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> creation of some of Leonardo's machines of war.  But the scientific
>>>>>> process
>>>>>> itself has never driven war.  And certainly poetry in its true
>>>>>> definition,
>>>>>> which includes communication of full thought and not just passionate
>>>>>> egotism, has NEVER driven war.  U.S. Poet Laureate Ted Kooser has said
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the foremost purpose of poetry is to communicate with people--and I
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> add that it is to communicate in ways that are outside our limited
>>>>>> commercial language.  Probably 98% of the words we say each day equate
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> "what can I buy from you?" or "What will you trade me for...?"  Poetry
>>>>>> takes
>>>>>> the vastness beyond those words, yet still contained within our
>>>>>> language,
>>>>>> and uses  them to explore other issues that we perhaps feel more
>>>>>> deeply
>>>>>> though we don't discuss them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> False poetry--rhetoric/oratory--may be used to drive armies and false
>>>>>> ideas.  We must as a culture understand, however, that there is a
>>>>>> difference
>>>>>> between false poetry --often passion or hate-driven egotism--and real
>>>>>> poetry
>>>>>> that reaches out to that which is larger.  We make that distinction in
>>>>>> philosophy and have since Plato discussed rhetoricians and
>>>>>> philosophers
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> being two different types of people with different goals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Art--certainly poetic art--is a transcendent and inclusive process
>>>>>> conducted within oneself and perhaps later shared with others.  It
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> lead to war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jared
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/2/2010 12:52 AM, ramon guardans wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  One point that sould be noted is that as much as science and poetry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> interact and overlap in the production of beauty and positive social
>>>>>>> constructions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> science and poetry are also indispensable components of all
>>>>>>> massacres,
>>>>>>> wars and monstrosities that the human group is putting together today
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> has in the course of history
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the construction of spurious certitudes, nationalism and fanaticism
>>>>>>> rely
>>>>>>> on wine and poetry, but you can substitute the wine by other
>>>>>>> substances,
>>>>>>> the need-use of science and technology to amplify killing power does
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> need to be ellaborated
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there anything practical that can be said or done about this
>>>>>>> relation?,
>>>>>>> One thing i would say is that in the future it might be wise to pay
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> attention to the unpoetic and very effective stategies of ignorance
>>>>>>> technology, te deliberate and industrial production of unknowledge,
>>>>>>> confusion and fear
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently and in history much work, poetic and scientific  has been
>>>>>>> devoted to produce and difuse ignorance, prejudice and confusion,
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> be adressed and one way to proceed is by including forms of quality
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> , sort of cheks on the validity and logic of statements and
>>>>>>> propositions,
>>>>>>> science and poetry have proven to be able to do that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cordially
>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Jared Smith<smithjrw@comcast.net>    wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  From: Jared Smith<smithjrw@comcast.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Science, Technology, Art, POETRY
>>>>>>>> To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 4:32 PM
>>>>>>>> Hi, Vitor and other Yasminers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What a fascinating conversation this is developing
>>>>>>>> into!  Your contribution here, Vitor, opens up the
>>>>>>>> whole question of thought processes in poetry and the
>>>>>>>> languages that represent those processes.  Of course,
>>>>>>>> on the most basic surface level, some of us may be most
>>>>>>>> comfortable conversing in Italian or French or English or
>>>>>>>> any other language native to a particular country or
>>>>>>>> region.  At a somewhat deeper level, we may be more
>>>>>>>> comfortable conversing in light beams or music or
>>>>>>>> mathematical symbols  All of these symbols are, of
>>>>>>>> course, just that: symbols that stand for the concrete
>>>>>>>> statements we make or the meditations we set out upon. And David
>>>>>>>> Morley's
>>>>>>>> "Mathematics of Light" is a wonderful
>>>>>>>> example of how one set of symbols may be merged within
>>>>>>>> another.  In our time, especially, one can do this with
>>>>>>>> images that are complete pictures, as with digital poems and
>>>>>>>> their interfaces, as Jason Nelson has just discussed in his
>>>>>>>> post.  The shadows of Plato's cave wall take on depth
>>>>>>>> and become more interactive.  And perhaps Knowledge
>>>>>>>> (science) is allowed the chance to become closer to Art than
>>>>>>>> to Craft--fact and not pretense?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the empty page, in any case, is what all these
>>>>>>>> languages line their symbols down on.  I wonder if
>>>>>>>> there is value to thinking of the empty page as a
>>>>>>>> scaffolding which symbols of whatever sort that compose a
>>>>>>>> unity may be laid down.  The symbols are
>>>>>>>> statements.  The scaffolding is the blank space across
>>>>>>>> which those symbols play out--giving them nonlinear depth
>>>>>>>> and meaning because we don't know how deep that space is or
>>>>>>>> what its shape is.  Nor does the mind try to measure
>>>>>>>> the size of the paper or its infinitude.  The mind does
>>>>>>>> something else: it experiences the unknown space and makes
>>>>>>>> of it what it will.  It turns the finite into one or
>>>>>>>> more possible definitions or discoveries of the
>>>>>>>> infinite.  And the poet, then, whether in light rays or
>>>>>>>> mathematics or the contemplation of immigrants learns to
>>>>>>>> convey that  new possibility and discovery to others in
>>>>>>>> a valid form.  The poem happens, whatever language,
>>>>>>>> within the mind, drawing from the structure on the page or
>>>>>>>> visible through other symbols.  It provides a setting
>>>>>>>> for the symbols/data, and a tool for using them to create.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My Best,
>>>>>>>> Jared Smith
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/30/2010 1:41 AM, Vítor Reia-Baptista wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Hi Everybody.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My name is Vítor Reia-Baptista and I work at the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  University of Algarve, in South Portugal, where we have a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> research centre on Arts and Communication - CIAC (Centro de
>>>>>>>> Investigação em Artes e Comunicação)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  http://www.ciac.pt/en/index.php
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do not have anu direct answer to Roger questions and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  I don't know if they exist in general, but I'm certain that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> they apply to many of our human kind situations: we do need
>>>>>>>> poetry, in different shapes and different states of mind and
>>>>>>>> materia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  So, here are some starting contributes for a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  discussion maybe also around the way Teknè makes Poietike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> possible, through knowledge (Science) made visible by Art
>>>>>>>> crafts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Dave Morley, author of the poem «Mathematics of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Light»
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  <http://www.liv.ac.uk/poetryandscience/poems/mathematics-of-light.htm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> «Think of an empty page as open space. It possesses
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  no dimension. Human time
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  makes no claim. Everything is possible, at this point
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  endlessly possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Anything can grow in it. Anybody, real or imaginary,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  can travel there, stay
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  put, or move on. There is no constraint, except the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  honesty of the writer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  and the scope of imagination-qualities with which we
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  are born and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  characteristics that we can develop. Writers are born
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  and made.»
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  This contribute may be found in the site of the Centre
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  for Poetry and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Science at the University of Liverpool:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.liv.ac.uk/poetryandscience/poems/index.htm>;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  From another perspective the Poetry Foudation claims
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  that there are (at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  least) 1875 Poems about Arts&    Sciences, such as
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  the «Equation for my
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Children» by Wilmer Mills:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://atirateaomar.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best wishes.
>>>>>>>>> Vítor Reia
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Citando roger malina<rmalina@alum.mit.edu>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Science, Technology, Art, POETRY
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Opening Statement by YASMIN co moderator Roger
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Malina
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Poetry in the Asylum:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      There have been times in
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  my life when I have been a voracious reader,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and sometime writer, of poetry. Sometimes this
>>>>>>>>> state is triggered by
>>>>>>>>> jet lag. At those times I consume and generate
>>>>>>>>> poetry as if my very
>>>>>>>>> survival depended on it. At other times I am cold
>>>>>>>>> to poetry.
>>>>>>>>> My Czech grandparents were both musicians and
>>>>>>>>> music teachers and they
>>>>>>>>> raised my father in a home where music was almost
>>>>>>>>> a basic food. He
>>>>>>>>> used to listen to music as he carried out his
>>>>>>>>> scientific research in
>>>>>>>>> the 30s, and later as he created his kinetic art
>>>>>>>>> works in the 1950s;
>>>>>>>>> his seminal work ³Jazz²:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (http://www.olats.org/pionniers/malina/bdd/oeuvre.php?oi=1201)
>>>>>>>>>> is a visual poem linking sound and image. It was
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  during this time that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> he was at personal risk, pursued by the US
>>>>>>>>> McCarthy staffers and the
>>>>>>>>> US FBI. Then suddenly in his 50s, after his
>>>>>>>>> political problems were
>>>>>>>>> over, he became oblivious to music and painted in
>>>>>>>>> silence for the rest
>>>>>>>>> of his life. Is this a coincidence or a
>>>>>>>>> connection? What is it that
>>>>>>>>> makes poetry vital for survival? We live in a
>>>>>>>>> dangerous age, do we
>>>>>>>>> need a new poetics?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      In recent decades, much of
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  the art connected to science and new
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> technologies has been non contemplative, often
>>>>>>>>> loud and insistent,
>>>>>>>>> un-poetical. But other artists, and poets, as they
>>>>>>>>> have explored these
>>>>>>>>> new terrains have developed new poetic impulses
>>>>>>>>> that have created new
>>>>>>>>> senses of the special and even the sacred.
>>>>>>>>> Examples come to mind that
>>>>>>>>> I would put in the category of poetic arts would
>>>>>>>>> include:
>>>>>>>>> Jeffrey Shaw¹s ³Legible City :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61l7Y4MS4aU
>>>>>>>>>> Char Davies ³Ephemere²: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_aiw7yhpI
>>>>>>>>>> David Rokeby¹s ³Very Nervous System² :
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrawKucSSRw
>>>>>>>>>> Mark Hansen and Ben Rubin¹s Listening post:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD36IajCz6A
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The invited respondents in this discussion have a
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  variety of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> approaches to poetry that connects to the sciences
>>>>>>>>> and technology of
>>>>>>>>> our age.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      When historian Robert
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Ilbert asked Samuel Bordreuil and I to set up
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the Art-Science wing of IMERA:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.imera.fr/index.php/en/organisation/101.html
>>>>>>>>>> he named it : ASIL, or the French word for Asylum,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  with the acronym
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arts-Sciences-Instrumentations-Language . Indeed
>>>>>>>>> the connections
>>>>>>>>> between the arts, sciences and technology must
>>>>>>>>> also be mediated by
>>>>>>>>> languages both image and word, and in particular
>>>>>>>>> by art forms that use
>>>>>>>>> language as their raw material. We have recently
>>>>>>>>> issued a new call for
>>>>>>>>> residency proposals :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.imera.fr/index.php/en/becoming-a-fellow/applications.html
>>>>>>>>>> and we welcome proposals from poets that need to
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  collaborate with
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> scientists or research engineers to achieve their
>>>>>>>>> artistic vision. We
>>>>>>>>> need poetry in the Asylum.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      Ten years ago poet Tim
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Peterson, a participant in this discussion,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> led a Leonardo Electronic Almanac project around
>>>>>>>>> the new poetics :
>>>>>>>>> New Media Poetry and Poetics
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    From Concrete to Codework: Praxis in Networked
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  and Programmable Media
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.leoalmanac.org/journal/vol_14/lea_v14_n05-06/tpeterson.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and more recently in the Leonardo Book Series at
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  MIT Press we published
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> New Media Poetics: edited by Adalaide Morris and
>>>>>>>>> Thomas Swiss
>>>>>>>>> http://leonardo.info/isast/leobooks/books/swissmorris.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> which documents some of the current work in new
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  media poetics.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In this YASMIN discussion we seek to discuss all
>>>>>>>>> the many ways that
>>>>>>>>> poetry connects to the new sciences and the new
>>>>>>>>> technologies that
>>>>>>>>> underpin so many of the new ways that we are
>>>>>>>>> becoming human.
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Messaging Program.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> on or off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  -----
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3287 -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Release Date: 11/29/10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>>>>> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"),
>>>>>>>> enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found
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>>>>>>>> find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or
>>>>>>>> off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>>>>> to.
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>>>>>>> enter
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>>>>>>> on
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>>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3291 - Release Date:
>>>>>>> 12/01/10
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
>>>>>> to.
>>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>>> name,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> enter
>>>>>> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>>> "Set
>>>>>> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>
>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
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>>>
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
>> http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
>>
>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
>> http://www.elmcip.net/
>> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> -----
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>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>
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[Yasmin_discussions] extended introduction

welcome Alexandre Bellenger,

I was educated as a sleep-learner who had to cope with a /twistable
/headphone cable and getting the volume just right.

In case you have not seen my paper trail...as an opener.

http://www.d.umn.edu/~lbrush/emeritus.htm
--

2011 awaits all of us and I, you with your self education, are but
contributors to the ___ whole.

**

*Thanks, Leif Brush *

*Professor Emeritus*, *Department of Art + Design*

*University of Minnesota Duluth *

2909 Jefferson Street

Duluth, Minnesota 55812-2324

P: 218.728.2561

lbrush@d.umn.ed
leifrub@passaroundsound.net

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Science, Technology, Art, POETRY

Speaking of chain reactions:
Liliane also mentioned to me that with her 1968 Poem Machine called E=MC3 ''playfully questioning the now constant of the speed of light, I anticipated the recent work of cosmologists such as Joao Maguiejo at Imperial College''

http://www.englandgallery.com/artist_work.php?mainId=46&groupId=none&_gnum=8&media=Sculpture&_p=8

& for cited evidence of her influence on Imperial college engineers please see:

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1806110

and beady eyed Yasminers will note that one of the scientists involved is called Latham, John Paul, son of the infamous wonderful John http://www.flattimeho.org.uk/

Bronac

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Avi Rosen <avi@siglab.technion.ac.il>
Date: 15 December 2010 13:26
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Science, Technology, Art, POETRY
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>

Hi Simon,
According to E=MC2 the short poem can cause a cyber-chain reaction...
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....

-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
[mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Simon
Biggs
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 3:49 PM
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Science, Technology, Art, POETRY

A poem that starts a war can be called an info-bomb. I like to employ a
broad definition of poetry and poetics. Main Kampf has its poetic elements.
So does the rhetoric of Jihad. Perhaps even more so. Arabic is an
intrinsically evocative language. These are poems that start wars.

Anything can be a weapon and what was intended as a weapon can be anything.
I thought that was the point of a flower in the barrel of a gun, or the
famous lyric of the Beatles:

Happiness (is a warm gun)
Bang Bang Shoot Shoot
Happiness (is a warm gun, momma)
Bang Bang Shoot Shoot

Best

Simon

On 13/12/2010 07:25, "Paul Hertz" <ignotus@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jared,
>
> Let me see if I understand. Psalm 137 ("By the waters of Babylon we
> sat down and wept"), a beautiful poem of longing and exile, which ends:
>
> "Oh daughter of Babylon, you devastator!
> Happy shall he be who requites you
> with what you have done to us!
> Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against
> the rock!"
>
> would evidently be a "lower" form of art, since it clearly seeks to
> draw on the passions of the people to whom it is addressed and ends
> with what looks pretty unequivocally like a call to infanticide.
>
> You say that a poem has never started a war. If starting a war is
> matter of pulling triggers (or notching arrows, or dropping bombs) I
> suppose a poem never did this. A poem also never made lunch. But
> poetry and all other art is formed by the society in which it arises.
> Poems and language propagate the values of the cultures that produce them.
>
> If the Iliad glories in war, does it not then also have a
> responsibility in continuing wars? It may not immediately incite its
> listeners to take up arms, but it certainly propagates in them the
> core beliefs of a society, including the notion that war is heroic. We
> could well hold it guilty of starting many wars, just through
> propagating that one great lie "war is heroic."
>
> It is only our distance from the culture from which the Iliad sprang
> that allows us to consider it dispassionately, as what I suppose you
> may mean by "higher" art. Otherwise, we'd hear it as part of our own
> education as warriors or as mothers and wives of warriors. It is a
> great poem not because it is not calculated to incite the passions and
> lead people in a particular direction, but for the grandeur and scope
> of the language through which it does that very thing.
>
> Perhaps you conceive of "lower" poetry as that which is specifically
> intended as an instrument to incite, rather like a military march or a
> patriotic painting. Well, certainly there is a lot of "official" art
> that is truly bad, but I contend that that there is also plenty of
> great art that does incite, and quite consciously. So yes, perhaps a
> poem never started a war, but some poems keep war going. And
> occasionally a poem pays for lunch, in the style of Cyrano de Bergerac.
>
> The notion that it is desirable that a poem might "lie beyond such
concerns"
> as inciting passion or action is itself a cultural attitude, and not
> something inherent in poetry as practiced through the ages. You may
> prefer poems that reflect that attitude or allow you to practice it,
> but that does not mean there is one cultural stream of "true" or
> "high" art producing dispassionate poetry and another of "low" or "false"
art ruled by passion.
>
> Perhaps I misconstrue what you mean by these dichotomies of true/false
> or high/low, but in any case they strike me as implying a value
> judgment that I don't believe I share. I rather think I prefer poems
> that attempt to sway me. I enjoy being swayed, all the more if the
> workings of poetic language do so with a subtlety I can only decipher
after the swaying.
>
> There are only choices about how to use language, not choices about
> its outcomes. By its very refusal to take sides, a dispassionate poem
> may be complicit in social evils--or it may open the way to settle a
> dispute. We may choose to use language passionately or
> dispassionately, to express our desire for peace, for war, for
> quietude or for lunch. We have done so for ages. There are no guarantees
that language will have the effect we desire.
> It's that malleable. For better or worse, we ourselves are that malleable.
> We make our choices and hope for the best.
>
> best regards,
>
> -- Paul
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Jared Smith <smithjrw@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> I would agree with most of what you say, and hope that you have not
>> labeled me as one who would claim that poetry and art are "Innocent."
>> Indeed, they are not.  In speaking of true of false art, I meant to
>> speak of false art as that which is consciously inspired or
>> calculated to incite a particular reaction by drawing upon the
>> passions of a people and leading them in a chosen direction--to war
>> or to peace or wherever.  Perhaps rather than calling that a false
>> art, I would have been clearer if I had called it a "lower" art or
>> poetry.  A "higher" art of poetry, or as I unfortunately termed it, a
"true" poetry would be that which is as  you say "not innocent"
>> and not guilty, but partakes from all that is about us and brings all
>> that it can perceive to bear on its experience.  It is not innocent
>> nor guilty, but lies outside and beyond such concerns.
>>
>> I think that we are in agreement on that, and that it is only the
>> short responses one is generally  allowed in email discussions that
>> may have confused that issue--at least that my short response may have
confused it.
>>
>> What I was trying to address in Ramon's email, however, was that
>> neither art nor poetry start wars--and in fact, I believe they guard
>> against wars because of their inclusion and giving voice to the
>> feelings and passions of the people who create them within the
>> society.  I might simply have said in response to Ramon that Poetry
>> is very powerful.  But if one thinks it causes wars, one is greatly
>> overestimating of misunderstanding that power.  I challenge anyone to
name a war that was started by a poem.
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/7/2010 3:39 PM, Paul Hertz wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry for the late entry, but I can't let this go unchallenged.
>>>
>>> Ramon Guardans said: "science and poetry are also indispensable
>>> components of all massacres, wars and monstrosities that the human
>>> group is putting together today and has in the course of history."
>>>
>>> I think this is only to say that culture is not innocent. If it
>>> pretends to
>>>
>>> *represent* all of human experience--and it does--then it seems to
>>> me that it must *partake* of all human experience, too.
>>>
>>> And how can we ascribe innocence to poetry, art, science or any
>>> other cultural manifestation we create if we cannot ascribe it to
>>> ourselves? I put it to you that no person is innocent: however much
>>> we attach the symbology of innocence to babies, women, clouds,
>>> souls, poetry or painting, each symbol and each reality remains
>>> stubbornly a part of society as a whole.
>>> There is no innocence apart. There are choices that lead to peace
>>> and dialog and there are choices that lead to lies and degradation,
>>> but once we claim our place in human society there are no choices
>>> that lead to innocence, any
>>>
>>> more than there are social movements that will take us home to utopia.
>>> There
>>> are only choices that will improve our collective lives or make them
>>> worse,
>>>
>>> and art may lie in helping us to distinguish them.
>>>
>>> Art is stained with living--or it isn't very good art.
>>>
>>> I imagine that Ernesto Cardenal spoke in this spirit when he
>>> declared that the poet "defends the people through language." Not
>>> because he offered innocence in his poems, but because he was ready
>>> to commit to living his choices through his words.
>>>
>>> And this undoubtedly means that art sometimes offers bad choices,
>>> aesthetics of death, celebrations of infamy. I have only to
>>> contemplate the several poetic traditions Ramon Menendez-Pidal
>>> gathered in his *Flor Nueva de Romances Viejas*, a wonderful
>>> anthology of medieval romances from Spain, to
>>>
>>> realize that there is great art coming out of bitter conflict, and
>>> taking sides in such a way that the hero among the Mozarabes may be
>>> the villain among the Christians, and vice-versa. You may say these
>>> poems are only innocent tales--as though history in any form could
>>> be innocent--but may I suggest that they are both high art and
>>> poisoned by murderous, fratricidal war? They may not stir blood to anger
now, but I'd wager once they did.
>>>
>>> No, you won't get away with claiming some special innocence for art,
>>> especially if it requires you make distinctions between false and
>>> true art.
>>>
>>> There is art that reaches out to us, as you say, but there is also
>>> art that
>>>
>>> intends to stir our rage. Trying to cage it in a "true/false"
>>> dichotomy will not suffice. It is language itself, the very material
>>> of which both your true and false poetry are made, that bears the
>>> stain. This holds, too, of other arts, though they do no operate
>>> with words. The compromise with communication is the compromise to
>>> be misunderstood, to be wrong, and to even to commit criminal acts.
>>> Art is many things, but it is not innocent.
>>> I
>>>
>>> dare say the same of science.
>>>
>>> Now, if you ask me whether I believe that artists and musicians and
>>> poets are generally striving for peace and understanding--if you ask
>>> me whether I
>>>
>>> believe that culture offers a pathway for human beings to learn to
>>> live together--well, I will answer with a resounding YES. But is not
>>> at all the same as ascribing innocence to art.
>>>
>>> I think Ramon is spot on when he says that science and poetry are
>>> compromised not only with those aspects of culture that we hold to
>>> be positive, but with the negative as well. That is certainly how I
>>> read what he wrote. I really don't think we can study or perform art
>>> or science in all their depth and breadth without that realization.
>>> Without that realization,
>>>
>>> our choices of what we believe science and art should do into the
>>> future cannot be made as they must be made--with eyes open.
>>>
>>> My apologies to the apologists of innocence if I give offense, but,
>>> worthy people, you are mistaken if you think art or science are
innocent.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>>
>>> -- Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Jared Smith<smithjrw@comcast.net>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Ramon,
>>>>
>>>> Science may take part in the formation of warfare, as for example
>>>> in the creation of some of Leonardo's machines of war.  But the
>>>> scientific process itself has never driven war.  And certainly
>>>> poetry in its true definition, which includes communication of full
>>>> thought and not just passionate egotism, has NEVER driven war.
>>>> U.S. Poet Laureate Ted Kooser has said that the foremost purpose of
>>>> poetry is to communicate with people--and I would add that it is to
>>>> communicate in ways that are outside our limited commercial
>>>> language.  Probably 98% of the words we say each day equate to
>>>> "what can I buy from you?" or "What will you trade me for...?"
>>>> Poetry takes the vastness beyond those words, yet still contained
>>>> within our language, and uses  them to explore other issues that we
>>>> perhaps feel more deeply though we don't discuss them.
>>>>
>>>> False poetry--rhetoric/oratory--may be used to drive armies and
>>>> false ideas.  We must as a culture understand, however, that there
>>>> is a difference between false poetry --often passion or hate-driven
>>>> egotism--and real poetry that reaches out to that which is larger.
>>>> We make that distinction in philosophy and have since Plato
>>>> discussed rhetoricians and philosophers as being two different
>>>> types of people with different goals.
>>>>
>>>> Art--certainly poetic art--is a transcendent and inclusive process
>>>> conducted within oneself and perhaps later shared with others.  It
>>>> does not lead to war.
>>>>
>>>> Jared
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/2/2010 12:52 AM, ramon guardans wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  One point that sould be noted is that as much as science and
>>>> poetry
>>>>> interact and overlap in the production of beauty and positive
>>>>> social constructions
>>>>>
>>>>> science and poetry are also indispensable components of all
>>>>> massacres, wars and monstrosities that the human group is putting
>>>>> together today and has in the course of history
>>>>>
>>>>> the construction of spurious certitudes, nationalism and
>>>>> fanaticism rely on wine and poetry, but you can substitute the
>>>>> wine by other substances, the need-use of science and technology
>>>>> to amplify killing power does not need to be ellaborated
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything practical that can be said or done about this
>>>>> relation?, One thing i would say is that in the future it might be
>>>>> wise to pay more attention to the unpoetic and very effective
>>>>> stategies of ignorance technology, te deliberate and industrial
>>>>> production of unknowledge, confusion and fear
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently and in history much work, poetic and scientific  has
>>>>> been devoted to produce and difuse ignorance, prejudice and
>>>>> confusion, this could be adressed and one way to proceed is by
>>>>> including forms of quality control , sort of cheks on the validity
>>>>> and logic of statements and propositions, science and poetry have
>>>>> proven to be able to do that
>>>>>
>>>>> cordially
>>>>> r
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Jared Smith<smithjrw@comcast.net>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  From: Jared Smith<smithjrw@comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Science, Technology, Art,
>>>>>> POETRY
>>>>>> To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 4:32 PM Hi, Vitor and other
>>>>>> Yasminers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What a fascinating conversation this is developing into!  Your
>>>>>> contribution here, Vitor, opens up the whole question of thought
>>>>>> processes in poetry and the languages that represent those
>>>>>> processes.  Of course, on the most basic surface level, some of
>>>>>> us may be most comfortable conversing in Italian or French or
>>>>>> English or any other language native to a particular country or
>>>>>> region.  At a somewhat deeper level, we may be more comfortable
>>>>>> conversing in light beams or music or mathematical symbols  All
>>>>>> of these symbols are, of course, just that: symbols that stand
>>>>>> for the concrete statements we make or the meditations we set out
>>>>>> upon. And David Morley's "Mathematics of Light" is a wonderful
>>>>>> example of how one set of symbols may be merged within another.
>>>>>> In our time, especially, one can do this with images that are
>>>>>> complete pictures, as with digital poems and their interfaces, as
>>>>>> Jason Nelson has just discussed in his post.  The shadows of
>>>>>> Plato's cave wall take on depth and become more interactive.  And
>>>>>> perhaps Knowledge
>>>>>> (science) is allowed the chance to become closer to Art than to
>>>>>> Craft--fact and not pretense?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the empty page, in any case, is what all these languages line
>>>>>> their symbols down on.  I wonder if there is value to thinking of
>>>>>> the empty page as a scaffolding which symbols of whatever sort
>>>>>> that compose a unity may be laid down.  The symbols are
>>>>>> statements.  The scaffolding is the blank space across which
>>>>>> those symbols play out--giving them nonlinear depth and meaning
>>>>>> because we don't know how deep that space is or what its shape
>>>>>> is.  Nor does the mind try to measure the size of the paper or
>>>>>> its infinitude.  The mind does something else: it experiences the
>>>>>> unknown space and makes of it what it will.  It turns the finite
>>>>>> into one or more possible definitions or discoveries of the
>>>>>> infinite.  And the poet, then, whether in light rays or
>>>>>> mathematics or the contemplation of immigrants learns to convey
>>>>>> that  new possibility and discovery to others in a valid form.
>>>>>> The poem happens, whatever language, within the mind, drawing
>>>>>> from the structure on the page or visible through other symbols.
>>>>>> It provides a setting for the symbols/data, and a tool for using
>>>>>> them to create.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Best,
>>>>>> Jared Smith
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/30/2010 1:41 AM, Vítor Reia-Baptista wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hi Everybody.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My name is Vítor Reia-Baptista and I work at the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  University of Algarve, in South Portugal, where we have a
>>>>>> research centre on Arts and Communication - CIAC (Centro de
>>>>>> Investigação em Artes e Comunicação)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  http://www.ciac.pt/en/index.php
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not have anu direct answer to Roger questions and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I don't know if they exist in general, but I'm certain that
>>>>>> they apply to many of our human kind situations: we do need
>>>>>> poetry, in different shapes and different states of mind and
>>>>>> materia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  So, here are some starting contributes for a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  discussion maybe also around the way Teknè makes Poietike
>>>>>> possible, through knowledge (Science) made visible by Art crafts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Dave Morley, author of the poem «Mathematics of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Light»
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.liv.ac.uk/poetryandscience/poems/mathematics-of-light
>>>>>> .htm
>>>>>>>> ;
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> «Think of an empty page as open space. It possesses
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  no dimension. Human time
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  makes no claim. Everything is possible, at this point
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  endlessly possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Anything can grow in it. Anybody, real or imaginary,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  can travel there, stay
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  put, or move on. There is no constraint, except the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  honesty of the writer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  and the scope of imagination-qualities with which we
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  are born and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  characteristics that we can develop. Writers are born
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  and made.»
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  This contribute may be found in the site of the Centre
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  for Poetry and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Science at the University of Liverpool:
>>>>>>> <http://www.liv.ac.uk/poetryandscience/poems/index.htm>;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  From another perspective the Poetry Foudation claims
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  that there are (at
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  least) 1875 Poems about Arts&   Sciences, such as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  the «Equation for my
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Children» by Wilmer Mills:
>>>>>>> http://atirateaomar.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best wishes.
>>>>>>> Vítor Reia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Citando roger malina<rmalina@alum.mit.edu>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Science, Technology, Art, POETRY
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Opening Statement by YASMIN co moderator Roger
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Malina
>>>>>>> Poetry in the Asylum:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      There have been times in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  my life when I have been a voracious reader,
>>>>>>> and sometime writer, of poetry. Sometimes this state is
>>>>>>> triggered by jet lag. At those times I consume and generate
>>>>>>> poetry as if my very survival depended on it. At other times I
>>>>>>> am cold to poetry.
>>>>>>> My Czech grandparents were both musicians and music teachers and
>>>>>>> they raised my father in a home where music was almost a basic
>>>>>>> food. He used to listen to music as he carried out his
>>>>>>> scientific research in the 30s, and later as he created his
>>>>>>> kinetic art works in the 1950s; his seminal work ³Jazz²:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (http://www.olats.org/pionniers/malina/bdd/oeuvre.php?oi=1201)
>>>>>>>> is a visual poem linking sound and image. It was
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  during this time that
>>>>>>> he was at personal risk, pursued by the US McCarthy staffers and
>>>>>>> the US FBI. Then suddenly in his 50s, after his political
>>>>>>> problems were over, he became oblivious to music and painted in
>>>>>>> silence for the rest of his life. Is this a coincidence or a
>>>>>>> connection? What is it that makes poetry vital for survival? We
>>>>>>> live in a dangerous age, do we need a new poetics?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      In recent decades, much of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  the art connected to science and new
>>>>>>> technologies has been non contemplative, often loud and
>>>>>>> insistent, un-poetical. But other artists, and poets, as they
>>>>>>> have explored these new terrains have developed new poetic
>>>>>>> impulses that have created new senses of the special and even
>>>>>>> the sacred.
>>>>>>> Examples come to mind that
>>>>>>> I would put in the category of poetic arts would
>>>>>>> include:
>>>>>>> Jeffrey Shaw¹s ³Legible City :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61l7Y4MS4aU
>>>>>>>> Char Davies ³Ephemere²:
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_aiw7yhpI
>>>>>>>> David Rokeby¹s ³Very Nervous System² :
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrawKucSSRw
>>>>>>>> Mark Hansen and Ben Rubin¹s Listening post:
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD36IajCz6A
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The invited respondents in this discussion have a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  variety of
>>>>>>> approaches to poetry that connects to the sciences and
>>>>>>> technology of our age.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      When historian Robert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Ilbert asked Samuel Bordreuil and I to set up
>>>>>>> the Art-Science wing of IMERA:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.imera.fr/index.php/en/organisation/101.html
>>>>>>>> he named it : ASIL, or the French word for Asylum,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  with the acronym
>>>>>>> Arts-Sciences-Instrumentations-Language . Indeed the connections
>>>>>>> between the arts, sciences and technology must also be mediated
>>>>>>> by languages both image and word, and in particular by art forms
>>>>>>> that use language as their raw material. We have recently issued
>>>>>>> a new call for residency proposals :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.imera.fr/index.php/en/becoming-a-fellow/applications
>>>>>>>> .html and we welcome proposals from poets that need to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  collaborate with
>>>>>>> scientists or research engineers to achieve their artistic
>>>>>>> vision. We need poetry in the Asylum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Ten years ago poet Tim
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Peterson, a participant in this discussion,
>>>>>>> led a Leonardo Electronic Almanac project around the new poetics
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>> New Media Poetry and Poetics
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   From Concrete to Codework: Praxis in Networked
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  and Programmable Media
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.leoalmanac.org/journal/vol_14/lea_v14_n05-06/tpeterso
>>>>>>> n.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and more recently in the Leonardo Book Series at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  MIT Press we published
>>>>>>> New Media Poetics: edited by Adalaide Morris and Thomas Swiss
>>>>>>> http://leonardo.info/isast/leobooks/books/swissmorris.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> which documents some of the current work in new
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  media poetics.
>>>>>>> In this YASMIN discussion we seek to discuss all the many ways
>>>>>>> that poetry connects to the new sciences and the new
>>>>>>> technologies that underpin so many of the new ways that we are
>>>>>>> becoming human.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3287 -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Release Date: 11/29/10
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>>> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter
>>>>>> e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further
>>>>>> down the page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>>> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
>>>>>> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will
>>>>>> appear ("options page").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find
>>>>>> the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>>
>>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
>>>>> subscribe to.
>>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>>> name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>>> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
>>>>> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will
>>>>> appear ("options page").
>>>>>
>>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3291 - Release Date:
>>>>> 12/01/10
>>>>>
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>>>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>>>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>>>
>>>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
to.
>>>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>>>> name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>>>> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if
>>>> asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear
>>>> ("options page").
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>>>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>>
>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>>
>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
>> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
>> name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>>
>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
>> enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked.
>> Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options
page").
>>
>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
>>
>
>

Best

Simon

simon@littlepig.org.uk
http://www.littlepig.org.uk/

s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
http://www.elmcip.net/
http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/

_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
password in the fields found further down the page.

HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your
e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").

HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.

_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address,
name, and password in the fields found further down the page.

HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked.
Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options
page").

HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the
"Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.

_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.

HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").

HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.