I admit freely that I ignored what Baudrilllard's meant with his idea and transposed it to not having access to virtual concepts of historical events and objects in our brain due to physical changes in our brain brought on by technologies..:-) but hey, it's that convenient idiosyncratic thing we do (as artists)....ahem...
Indeed these 3 divisions of Popper are problematic, but especially (I can't help myself) in the holistic idea of the universe as a quantum computer...
If its not too inappropriate a topic for Yasmin...For those of you more interested in imagination and poetry and the philosophy of speculative idea's rather than science and simulation taxonomies (sorry Roger :-))) then please accommodate this discussion with a reaction...as my brain just rages with associations and wonders if current Sim's and Avatars are hearing our commands as voices...
Idea's that everything is true and false at the same time depending on one's perspective, that time does not really exist, Mind over Matter, etc, they all seem to be able to be integrated in this concept. The concept of a higher self, a higher connectedness, the evolution of our brain, the laws of physics, violence, life as a game, etc.
I am interested in what could not be explained within this concept. Please just slaughter the idea if you can...as I am caught up in it's magical meme. Are we some sort of self organisational 'tamagochies' in an evolutionary game of life? In which we have power to change things and at the same time we don't due to evolutionary probabilities??? A game in which the 'surfer' and 'user' is limited by not allowing to interfere directly? A kind of advanced evolutionary 'Being John Malcovich'?
j.
________________________________
From: Avi Rosen <avi@siglab.technion.ac.il>
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 7:29:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] AROUND SIMULATION and Time and are you living in a computer simulation?
Dear Jennifer & All
I addressed the question of Art fuzzy borders between 'virtual' & 'real' in 'Time - space compression in cyberspace art'
http://www.artciencia.com/Admin/Ficheiros/AVIROSEN444.pdf
"The permanent interconnection between both virtual and empiric worlds introduces a new way
of being and new ontological philosophy. Karl Popper's theory of the three worlds is dramatically
altered. Traditionally the classic world 3 of hypotheses can never influence directly the
empirical world 1 of physical "objects" and vice versa. To achieve this, the mediation of
subjective reality, human thoughts, feelings etc. of world 2 is necessary. Cyberspace
alters that fact. For example, a surfer may use an on-line internet application that controls
and displays a mutation of DNA material or integrated circuits embedded in biological cells.
A theory of the function of these circuits finds the way to world 3. Sensors (world 1) transmit
feedback data from the electro-biological cells. While the cyberspace is functioning, there is
a real-time direct feedback of world 1, world 3 and world 2 (the surfer). The electro-biological
cells are now part of surfer's extended body and his nervous system. Within interconnected cyberspace,
world 3 directly affects world 1, and world 2. Popper's original discrete, linear relation of world 1, 2
and 3 becomes holistic real-time hyper-sphere. This ontological shift affects artistic quantities and
qualities which originally defined the artistic object. Art work (world 1) can be controlled and altered
by gadgets and real-time predictive software (world 3) causing art consumers to decide and act in the
creative scene (world 2). These acts create a closed loop 'duree' of art, interconnecting the three worlds.
The cyberspace can be comprehended as a container of Platonic ideas that symbolizes the Platonic triangles
and tables that emerge from mathematical algorithms. The data can be manipulated, altered and copied by
the demiurge (the surfer)."
Surfer's interpretation is the voice of chief, king, or the gods...
Jennifer, I think that's what Baudrilllard meant when asserting : "We will no longer be able to find the
objects and events that existed before the cyber immersion."
Best,
Avi.
-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)
Sent: ש 30 ינואר 2010 02:11
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] AROUND SIMULATION and Time and are you living in a computer simulation?
Avi Wrote: "Jean Baudrillad argued that once one has passed beyond this point
of detachment from the real, the process becomes irreversible. We will
no longer be able to find the objects and events that existed before
the cyber immersion. We will not be able to find the history that had
been before cyberspace. The original essence of art, the original
concept of history have disappeared, all now is part of a real-time
holistic data sphere inseparable from its models of perfection and
simulation. The cyberspace compressed the time and space to a short
circuit hyper-reality.
The cyberspace is the "meme" database
for further construction/deconstruction of net audiovisual mutual
memory sequences consumed by other cyber-flâneurs.
Google, YouTube and its partners become a giant hub, dominating cyber-culture, global
networked economy, surfers' language and behavior. The Cyberspace is an
extension of our foot, eye skin and nervous system positioned on
torus-like topology. The real and the virtual are one…"
Dear All,
I'm glad that the word 'meme' has dropped in relation to the real and the virtual, time and space.
I've been
dying to re-visit Nick Bostroms paper with you: Are you
living in a computer simulation? (http://www.simulation-argument.com/)
Ergo, is what we think is real, really a simulation? The chances seem
to be really high! Thinking about the universe as a quantum computer
(Seth Lloyd). The real in the virtual, in the real, in the virtual....etc.
Let's just take the
idea that we are living in a giant simulation for 'real'. As an artist I am interested in the bigger picture, the meaning from a
distant perspective. I am interested in your opinion about what
simulation then means in relation to life, to evolution, if we are actually living in a simulation?
Referring to Pier Luigi's mentioning of simulation as a global resource
and behaviour. Is simulation a meme of life? What role does art have in such a simulation? Is it a form of materialized thought, a form of cognitive software? A tool to change our brains, prepare them for the next step in evolution?
The 'real' is a shifting concept in time, what is considered real or
unreal now, changes as technology changes, but also by the memes in our
brain.
What we imagine now, becomes real in the future. It might be
interesting to consider the Edge's 2010 question, "How has The Internet
changed
the way you think?" In a sense has, literally changed you synaptic structures. Can you remember what it was like to not have a
computer?
Avi refering to Baudrilllard: "We will no longer be able to find the
objects and events that existed before the cyber immersion."
Perhaps it is indeed the very structure of our brain that evolves with the aid
of art and technology? Losing the objects and events because our brain has changed... Here I am thinking
about for instance Julian Jaynes idea of the bicameral mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes. In which he suggests that ancient peoples did not possess an introspective mind-space, but instead had their
behavior directed by auditory hallucinations, which they interpreted as
the voice of their chief, king, or the gods.
just some new blurbs for you...
Jennifer
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