thank for your suggestions and for the text.
You write: "... in the end, the computer scientist has no intention of simulating the real". But what's the "real"? The organic neurons and their surrounding biology or the way the neurons "behave, work, function", as you write?
When the painters copy the nature - like for instance in the Renaissance - they don't copy the matter the nature is made of (and its biology, its "substance"...) but its appearance, that is the way it works, its behaviour. Maybe one of the art forms which escape this condition are the bioarts, where some artists, as Jens Hauser wrote, do not *represent* but *present*.
There is a sentence which can be interesting in this contest, by Arturo Rosenblueth, a Mexican researcher and a pioneer of cybernetics: "The best model of a cat is another cat..., especially the same cat." I seems this sentence was then taken by Norbert Wiener in a sligthly different way: "The best model of a cat is another cat or, better, the cat itself".
Thank you again and best,
Pier Luigi
Il giorno 03/feb/2010, alle ore 17.17, Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida ha scritto:
> I share my house here in Plymouth with two computer scientist, one of which
> is simulating artificial neurons to teach them how to memorize a sequence of
> objects. He is using:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hodgkin–Huxley_model<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hodgkin%E2%80%93Huxley_model>
>
> Today at lunch time, I was reading Prigogine (Order out of Chaos,
> A nonequilibrium universe, p.229) when me and the neuron guy star a
> conversation about the way he simulate de 'real' neurons. He said: is just a
> matter of input and output. And I said: and the neuron? the real? Is
> nothing? You are simulating despite the 'real'? Form me, a neuron
> changes every single instant...because we eat less or more sugar,
> alcohol, listen music... read... write, talk, dance breath... but, in the
> end, the computer scientist has no intention of simulating the real, just to
> imitate the way it seems to behave, work, function... It is just a matter of
> creating robots.... to create slaves....
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=robot&searchmode=none
>
> As attachment, I'm sending a text... just emergent writing... and just for
> fun.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Clarissa
>
>
> 2010/2/2 Pier Luigi Capucci <plc@noemalab.org>
>
>> Roger, Ramon and Paul,
>>
>> from the dictionary, "emulation" literally means something which "matches
>> or surpasses typically by imitation", and derives from Latin aemulat-
>> 'rivaled, equaled,' from the verb aemulari, from aemulus 'rival.'.
>> "Imitation" is from Latin imitatio(n-), from the verb imitari, which
>> interestingly shares the same source of "image" (which is not a side
>> meaning). "Simulation" is from Latin simulat- 'copied, represented,' from
>> the verb simulare, from similis 'like' (there are some accents in the latin
>> words I didn't put).
>>
>> Imitation, emulation, modelization, simulation, visualization,
>> representation..., maybe it could be interesting go through the similarities
>> and differences. And I think it would be interestng studying the simulation
>> techniques too, focusing on *how* they represent and not only on *what* they
>> represent, it could give new insights.
>>
>> Finally, in the above definitions there is always a dimension of
>> competition, defy, and, secondly, simulation, imitation and emulation's
>> meanings are two-faceted, being postive or negative.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Pier Luigi
>>
>>
>> Il giorno 01/feb/2010, alle ore 14.45, roger malina ha scritto:
>>
>>> ramon
>>>
>>> thanks for the example of molecular dynamics-
>>> i guess i would distinguish three sub categories
>>>
>>> - representation/ eg a walt dysney cartoon that elicits human response
>> like
>>> the physical phenomenon but the animation does not encode any physics
>>>
>>> - emulation- where the representation behaves like the physical
>> phenomenon
>>> but does not encode the same physical assumptions ( eg a computer can
>>> emulate old software but runs on new computer chips and emulates the way
>> the
>>> old chips behaved)
>>>
>>> - simulation- where the software system encodes the best scientific laws
>>> available to enable a system to behave like the real phenomenon= many
>>> artificial life systems try to do this
>>>
>>> the two examples i gave on stellar evolution and evolution of structure
>> of
>>> the universe are "simulations'= i tried to
>>> find out what category the molecular dynamics animation was\
>>> but couldnt=do you know ?
>>>
>>> i suspect that there are texts on these differences between
>>> represenation/emulation/simulation =maybe yasminers can point
>>> us to them
>>>
>>> roger
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: ramon guardans <ramon.guardans@soundplots.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you Roger and Avi, informative and beautiful mterial
>>> adding to this i would suggest
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIwu5MevZyg
>>>
>>> and other similar molecular dynamics simulations
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> be well
>>> r
>>
>> --
>> Pier Luigi Capucci
>> e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
>> web: http://www.noemalab.org/plc/plc.html
>> skype: plcapucci
>>
>>
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--
Pier Luigi Capucci
e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
web: http://www.noemalab.org/plc/plc.html
skype: plcapucci
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