them, just how many readers of this list do have sufficient coding
expertise to undertake a project on this scale?
So that got me to wondering - there are many skilled programmers in the
world - they just don't read this list. How do we get them engaged in
projects like this?
In fact, there is a skilled robot programmer just down the hall from me,
who already works on programming facial expressions for robots. But she
doesn't read this list. Why not? Because I don't think she is interested in
the issues that this list discusses.
So here is an interesting experiment/challenge ...
Is there anyone on the list who thinks they could present this project to
my student in a way that would make her interested in working on it? I
would be happy to pass on a proposal like that under controlled
circumstances, in order to assess the way she responds to it. I think that
the nature of her response might well cast light on the original
questioner's post.
You'd probably want to know a little about her, so here is her web page:
http://www.roboticschick.org/
Of course, you're more than welcome to contact her directly, and see what
happens. My prediction is that she would either ignore the email, or be
initially polite followed by a brush-off. If you do want me to provide a
slightly more detailed account of her response, I'd be happy to collect
this in the name of research.
Incidentally, she's organising a research workshop next month that might be
of interest: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/conference/drd09/
Cheers,
Alan
On Jul 27 2009, Ernest Edmonds wrote:
>Hi folks
>
>Simon has pretty much covered the main points. I might just add
>emphasis.
>
>For background, I have written code as part of my art practice since
>the 1960s and run teams doing this kind of stuff all the time. As
>Simon points out, there are many diverse skills in programming and no
>one person has them all. Real-time control, as in robotics, is just
>one specialised branch - but one that many skilled programmers do not
>know all that well. As with many aspects of life, creating and
>building teams or social environments is as important as finding
>technically skilled individuals.
>
>Its a side issue to this discussion, but the central position of
>programming WITHIN some modern art practice is also worthy of
>significant attention.
>
>Ernest Edmonds
>
>On 25/07/2009, at 12:18 AM, Simon Biggs wrote:
>
>> Hi Francis
>>
>> I sort of agree with you and disagree at the same time. I am an
>> artist who
>> programs. I regard programming as my primary medium - a form of
>> writing. I
>> consider computers themselves to be a form of writing, an
>> augmentation of
>> our capacity to make and interpret meaning. As an artist I put a
>> lot of
>> value on the capacity of the individual to make a difference, as
>> you seem to
>> do.
>>
>> However, I think it is naïve to argue that individuals produce work
>> of value
>> when isolated from others. Even when we are not aware of it we are
>> part of a
>> large team of people. Newton stated that to achieve you need to
>> stand on the
>> shoulders of giants. By this he meant that shifts in understanding
>> require a
>> lot of prepatory work and the efforts of the many, not the few. He
>> recognised his theories depended on those of others.
>>
>> I have worked with computers since the 1970's and am familiar with
>> how some
>> of the chip-sets that have shaped the evolution of these systems
>> have come
>> into being. In the late 1970's important steps were made in VLSI. This
>> depended on large teams of scientists, engineers and programmers
>> creating
>> miracles of minutarisation. That sort of working pattern remains valid
>> today. It is important to remember that creating the technical
>> systems that
>> allowed for all those transistors to be packed onto such small
>> wafers of
>> silicon required major scientific and industrial resources. You
>> cannot fly
>> to the moon with a few mates. As we have seen, it is a massive
>> undertaking
>> requiring the dedicated human and material resources of nations.
>> The same is
>> true in the development of other technologies - in the development
>> of ideas.
>> The invention of the web is (erroneously) laid at the feet of one
>> person
>> (Berner Lees) but I think he would be the first person to admit
>> that he
>> couldn't have done it without the trillions of Euro's spent on
>> CERN, where
>> he worked. He was a product of that whole process. HTTP was too.
>> The web is
>> a complex system. Robots are also extremely complex systems.
>>
>> My son, who is 9, has built a few robots, programming them in
>> Scratch and
>> NXT. He is lucky as his teacher is a professor of computing here in
>> Edinburgh and at Stanford. It is terrific to see him develop these
>> skills at
>> a young age and you do not want to upset his apple-cart, but
>> sometimes he
>> says it is easy to build robots. Happily, it is not difficult to
>> show to him
>> the actual complexity of the systems he is only skimming the
>> surface of.
>> When he recognises just how much is involved he is clearly struck
>> with the
>> immensity of the task. Happily, he seems up for it. Perhaps I
>> should send
>> him to Thailand?
>>
>> In short, the creation of culture (including technology) is an
>> activity that
>> involves us all.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> Simon Biggs
>> Research Professor
>> edinburgh college of art
>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
>> www.eca.ac.uk
>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>>
>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
>> www.littlepig.org.uk
>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Francis Wittenberger <director@culturebase.org>
>> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:40:21 +0700
>> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
>>
>> hi Simon,
>>
>> i do not agree that "Programmers good enough to do this kind of
>> work are
>> thin on the ground"
>> - while i am not saying that any 'web designer' is equipped to do
>> 'robotics' but there are hundreds of thousand programmers who do
>> relative low-level programming and hardware - the problem is that
>> there
>> is nobody around to define for them WHAT to do - this is what i
>> mean by
>> 'talkers' - for example on this and other 'new media forums' - most if
>> not all of those who discuss aren't able to define (to a
>> programmer) what
>> they are talking about - in fact, i think even they probably have no
>> idea what they are talking about .. but their talk seems to enable
>> university and other grants, which they spend on living normal, non
>> artistic , non creative, middle class lives - that is the problem.
>>
>> i would suggest to aggregate funds by not granting to those who are
>> unable to excel and define what what they are talking about , and
>> dedicate the rest of the money to programmers and engineers who
>> otherwise end up hungry on the commercial market just because they are
>> not good 'talkers' enough to get academic grants.
>>
>> i also do not agree to the concept of "employing a single
>> programmer is
>> not going to get you very far" - if you take a close look - every good
>> invention , just as any good software originate from a single mind or
>> a tiny team. every efficient software was written by one person.
>> unlike
>> microsoft and alike who make money from deals and speculations
>> creating
>> ever-in-progress waste they call 'software'.
>> compare that to the fact that every chip has tiny and efficient low
>> level code that is virtually 100% fully debugged and error free and is
>> result of work by a single programmer or a tiny team - this is why
>> chips
>> and CPUs work unlike 'MS office' that is forever "one version short of
>> being finished"
>>
>> no computer or phone , or a hard disk would work today without every
>> part being close to perfect on its own - the problem lies in the
>> inability of programmers to link with artists (or free their own
>> mind by
>> other means), and the inability of academics and artists to pinpoint
>> what type of integrated sub-systems to compile of the parts;
>>
>> the cases in which things work are the cases where the programmer was
>> somewhat an artist, or an artist who pushed himself to actually
>> code his
>> creative thought.
>>
>> i do agree that more then one person or programmer would be
>> required to
>> realize a robotic project, but that is also true to publishing a book
>> for example - normally a small team lead by a visionary is the best
>> way.
>>
>> blindly accepting (or promoting) the idea that many top programmers
>> and
>> lots of rare resources are a must to make an innovative step - is bad
>> for us who want to get down to the work and innovate - because every
>> time we approach an institute or company they think to themselves
>> 'i better
>> keep distance from those crazy artists who need millions of dollars
>> and
>> for their crazy future projects' - while in fact - no more then a
>> team
>> of 3-4 developers and 1-2 artists are required to prototype ANY
>> invention
>> and the funds can be as low as really basic requirements - after all,
>> true artists and creative people do what they do out of urge - and not
>> for the money :)
>>
>> - -
>>
>> regards from thailand,
>> francis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Programmers good enough to do this kind of work are thin on the
>>> ground and
>>> valuable. I wish we had a few. I mean, we do, but they are all busily
>>> employed on well funded research projects and have very little
>>> time for more
>>> speculative and less well funded work. Those that do are special.
>>> We could
>>> do with a lot more.
>>>
>>> I missed your call for a robotics programmer so am not sure what
>>> you were
>>> looking for, but one observation I would make about development
>>> work in this
>>> field is that employing a single programmer is not going to get
>>> you very
>>> far. Robotics is one of the most multi-disciplinary and demanding of
>>> technical areas. You need different kinds of programmers for
>>> different
>>> aspects of the systems (sensing algorithms are very different to
>>> those
>>> required for motor control). You also need engineers with various
>>> skill-sets
>>> as well as specialists from other areas (computational
>>> linguistics, computer
>>> vision, networking, micro-electronics, psychology, etc).
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>> Simon Biggs
>>> Research Professor
>>> edinburgh college of art
>>> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
>>> www.eca.ac.uk
>>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>>>
>>> simon@littlepig.org.uk
>>> www.littlepig.org.uk
>>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: <director@culturebase.org>
>>> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:19:15 +0700
>>> To: <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
>>> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
>>>
>>>
>>> Sawasdee
>>>
>>> re. Digital Skin
>>>
>>> MAF Thailand (2005)
>>> http://culturebase.org/home/thailand/MAF05/viewpage.php?
>>> menu_item=A_festival
>>> _theme
>>> http://culturebase.org/home/thailand/MAF05/viewpage.php?
>>> menu_item=B_maf_imag
>>> es
>>>
>>> re. Cyborgs discussion
>>>
>>> everybody here TALKING about cyborgs but funny enough there were ZERO
>>> programmers responding to my call "seeking hardcore programmer"
>>>
>>> i wonder what is this discussion all about and who is going to do the
>>> work;
>>>
>>> it seems there is not a single hardware engineer or a serious
>>> programmer
>>> reading this list - or?
>>>
>>> perhaps the heads of departments, historians, academics,
>>> philosophers and
>>> talkers should unite with a FUND to hire programmers to do something
>>> about all this talk..?
>>>
>>> hope to hear opinions
>>>
>>> best regards from thailand
>>> francis
>>>
>>> Re.
>>>> Hi Avi
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your "Digital Skin".
>>>> If Cyberspace is our skin, our body is a Network-body and a flat
>>>> screen. If my memory is good, this made you say in a previous post
>>>> that we are all cyborgs. At the same time there is a resistance to
>>>> that. Actual matter resists to being resumed to digital matter.
>>>> Thickness resists to being resumed to 2-dimensions. Physical bodies
>>>> resist to being resumed to images. This resistence interests me.
>>>> Things are not just flowing. They also scratch and scream. And
>>>> cyborgs
>>>> are not just the bright future of a superhumanity !
>>>>
>>>> In the 1970s, Jean-François Lyotard wrote about "The great ephemeral
>>>> skin" in his book Libidinal Economy (Theories of Contemporary
>>>> Culture). He was describing it as a carnal extrusion and a virtual
>>>> membrane where the world and our desires would meet. It is
>>>> "ephemeral"
>>>> because it is in constant mutation. Cyberspace is like this "great
>>>> ephemeral skin", just as language is.
>>>>
>>>> Here is an intersting artwork where the human body is scanned,
>>>> fragmented and recomposed through machines and softwares which
>>>> pervert
>>>> the idea of mapping (GoogleEarth)
>>>> http://www.locurto-outcault.com/index.html
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> Stéphane
>>>>
>>>> Le 22 juil. 09 à 07:12, Avi Rosen a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Stéphane,
>>>>> Very interesting subject "Epithelia, Creative Skins"...
>>>>> I made some artworks on this theme: "Digital Skin 2" -
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIO5bnV4i6E
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Cyberspace is an extension of the human foot, eye and the
>>>>> skin.
>>>>> The
>>>>> electronic gadgets and the data sphere are Galactic immediate Torus
>>>>> like
>>>>> extension of the human central nervous system, and the stage of
>>>>> 'Digital
>>>>> Skin' performance. It creates virtual extension of Marcel Duchamp's
>>>>> unfinished "Big Glass" piece, his voice (manipulated by the
>>>>> speed of
>>>>> light)on the video explains it. The transparent Cyberbody (digital
>>>>> mummy) is
>>>>> located eternally in cyberspace superposition. The departure and
>>>>> arrival are
>>>>> compressed to a singularity(Paul Virilio), on the digital skin's
>>>>> surface.
>>>>> 'Digital Skin 2' video sequence is bricolage of my endless virtual
>>>>> voyages (
>>>>> 'Digital Skin' is another example of such trajectory) in
>>>>> cyberspace,
>>>>> superimposing personal data on public data base (Goggle Earth and
>>>>> Sky). My
>>>>> body digital data strips, merged with the Earth and cosmos digital
>>>>> data
>>>>> strips produced by the satellites and telescopes. The
>>>>> digitalization
>>>>> of the
>>>>> universe and our body transformed it to a flat image displayed
>>>>> on the
>>>>> computer monitor ('Digital Skin').The digital video sequences are
>>>>> the MEME
>>>>> for further construction \deconstruction of cyber audiovisual
>>>>> mutual
>>>>> memory
>>>>> and universal knowledge."
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Avi Rosen,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the first time I contribute to this discussion. I am a
>>>>> visual
>>>>> artist and art theorist. I am wrighting a book about skin as a
>>>>> creative process ( "Epithelia, Creative Skins", "Les peaux
>>>>> créatrices"
>>>>> in French).
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>
>______________________________
>http://www.ernestedmonds.com
>
>
>
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