You touch on many points. Not sure if I want to respond to them all, as it
might lead to an unfocused discussion.
The plotted works you refer to are old (early 1980's). I did not make the
plotter. It was built by an Italian firm who had been commissioned to do so
by FIAT so that they could draw life-size plans of their trucks. The plots
you looked at are large, 2 x 3 metres or even larger. They were plotted onto
300 gsm Fabiano 100% cotton rag paper. Most plotters and printers would
choke on such materials. They were produced by having a computer watch me
drawing. I spent some months, working with a team of scientists and
engineers at the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research
Organisation in Sydney, developing the algorithms and integrated systems
that allowed a computer to track activity via a simple video camera – in
1983/84 that was novel stuff. I have continued to develop that software, on
my own and with the help of others, over the 25 years since then. The
software is now quite sophisticated and can do all sorts of things (most
recently I was able to get it to replicate the function of a mercury switch
sensor to track dancer's and give them visual feedback that corresponded
with their proprioception of balance – all done with a laptop and standard
DV camera). Anyway, those drawings: once we had made the video tracking
software (which was mainly to be used in interactive installations) I
thought it would be nice to get the computer to play at being Jackson
Pollock, so I did some drawing actions (but didn't actually draw, as such)
which it then took and replicated into more or less complex patterns. The
thing with the pictures is that they are composed of lots of elements which
are wonky, scrawly and generally very much about the parlous state of my
drawing skills – but then repeated exactly over and over again. The
idiosyncrasies of my hand were thus rendered machinic. The intention was to
question the idea of the artist's touch or trace, which was a fashionable
idea back then (probably still is). The drawings were also influenced by the
work of Vera Molnar, who had previously played with these sorts of ideas.
Which brings us to your point about genius and the jump of creativity.
Whilst I agree that creativity does not work in straight lines or as a
coherent progression I do not think there is such a thing as genius. As I
have already indicated, I have a lot of time for Newton's idea of team-work.
I regard individuality as a contingent characteristic, preferring the
Foucauldian notion of the distributed self or Latour's of expanded and
diffused agency. In these models the individual is regarded as an instance
of the collective and enabled through that context, drawing on and defined
by the resources within and without them (there is no notion of an essential
or irreducible self – the self is more like a construction). In a sense I
find it difficult to identify what is in and what is out. As such, all our
activities are more or less distributed and collective in nature. I do not
see how genius can fit in that model. Even the idea that a privileged group,
such as a culture, can be differentiated is unsustainable as ultimately it
too is subsumed into the mesh of contingent relationships. In this view
creativity is not viewed as a quality of the individual but as a function of
the relationships between instances of agency. Those instances might be, but
are not limited to, people, communities, technical systems, animals, the
weather or whatever. If you can see where I am coming from then you can
understand why I struggle with many of the fundamental apprehensions that
appear to underpin your arguments. If you read the text that is on the
splash-page of my website this argument is more clearly articulated (I
hope).
I think this is enough for now. I have stated where I am coming from. It
should be possible for you to extrapolate that to the various points you
have made and get a sense of why I would disagree with much of what you are
saying, whether it is about education and human-robots or any identifiable
difference between art and science.
Regards
Simon
Simon Biggs
Research Professor
edinburgh college of art
s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk
www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
simon@littlepig.org.uk
www.littlepig.org.uk
AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
From: Francis Wittenberger <director@culturebase.org>
Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:04:04 +0700
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
i dont have luxury of too much time to write daily, so it will
take me some time to replay to the few comments
thank you so far!
Hi Simon,
i saw some of your work on your website from 70es and 80s and its really
good work, and yes, you used a plotter, which was made by others,
perhaps even many people but i your work in itself did not require years
of research nor a large team to conceive or realize neither it really
required that plotter; for instance you probably could draw those by
(your/other's)hand and using technology is/was merely a
production/marketing tool; as i see it
i thought we are talking about art while you seem to talk about
scientific re/search (=trial&error) and attribute development of
miniaturization to large teams
i am talking about art and innovation (genius and 'jump')
an artist need not to cover a temple wall with ornaments nor does the
inventor need to miniaturize his invention - let craftsman and
labourers take on the task of 'search/trial&error and going to the moon
- as there is no art in any of those... (art is in a poem inspiring a voyage
to the moon and beyond but its not in building the rocket..)
i would rather encourage identification of excellence/artists who will
inspire and engage in "artistic research" and allow humanity to 'jump'
instead of taking linear research ways
while controlled education creates human robots , let us help to break
that invisible wall - human lifetime is not 'life=job' and ..
i would say that robots are only as complex as you make them and being
convinced that 'its extremely complex' will only create more trouble
solving 'the problem'
your son does not see the 'problem' you see therefore he is free; for
him its probably more easy to 'jump' before he is educated into thinking
that things are expensive and need large teams - let him be free to see
NEW solutions to new problems (often it can also happen that something
you see do not see as problem are a problem and vice-versa.
- -
re programmer - i agree that realtime programming , and far lower then C++
is what is needed assembly and diodes is still a good wat to go for realtime
;)
- -
and
have you thought that 'searching' could be obsolete? and 'finding' could
be a new way? (new technology that actually already exists, full scale
revolution developed by one person)
or have you considered that its rather *really easy* to evoke/create
consciousness
in a 'robot'?
or that what you call 'robot' is so rigid that slips thru your
'scientific' definitions..?
or for that matter 'emotions' by software are as simple to realize as as
those simply work in us if we just pay attention to see how we function
and respond?
anyhow, what i mean is that the above are tested things that i want to
find working-partners for
and you could send your son to Thailand but i think here he will find a
happy new life, really far from technology.. here people are much more
(i would call it) advanced in private, emotional and spiritual way
(simply to put it ' Thais really know how to party and dont find much
time to do 'serious' things (BTW. 'serious' in Thailand mostly mean 'sad' ..
)
all the best,
francis
> Hi Francis
>
> I sort of agree with you and disagree at the same time. I am an artist who
> programs. I regard programming as my primary medium � a form of writing. I
> consider computers themselves to be a form of writing, an augmentation of
> our capacity to make and interpret meaning. As an artist I put a lot of
> value on the capacity of the individual to make a difference, as you seem to
> do.
>
> However, I think it is na�ve to argue that individuals produce work of value
> when isolated from others. Even when we are not aware of it we are part of a
> large team of people. Newton stated that to achieve you need to stand on the
> shoulders of giants. By this he meant that shifts in understanding require a
> lot of prepatory work and the efforts of the many, not the few. He
> recognised his theories depended on those of others.
>
> I have worked with computers since the 1970�s and am familiar with how some
> of the chip-sets that have shaped the evolution of these systems have come
> into being. In the late 1970�s important steps were made in VLSI. This
> depended on large teams of scientists, engineers and programmers creating
> miracles of minutarisation. That sort of working pattern remains valid
> today. It is important to remember that creating the technical systems that
> allowed for all those transistors to be packed onto such small wafers of
> silicon required major scientific and industrial resources. You cannot fly
> to the moon with a few mates. As we have seen, it is a massive undertaking
> requiring the dedicated human and material resources of nations. The same is
> true in the development of other technologies � in the development of ideas.
> The invention of the web is (erroneously) laid at the feet of one person
> (Berner Lees) but I think he would be the first person to admit that he
> couldn�t have done it without the trillions of Euro�s spent on CERN, where
> he worked. He was a product of that whole process. HTTP was too. The web is
> a complex system. Robots are also extremely complex systems.
>
> My son, who is 9, has built a few robots, programming them in Scratch and
> NXT. He is lucky as his teacher is a professor of computing here in
> Edinburgh and at Stanford. It is terrific to see him develop these skills at
> a young age and you do not want to upset his apple-cart, but sometimes he
> says it is easy to build robots. Happily, it is not difficult to show to him
> the actual complexity of the systems he is only skimming the surface of.
> When he recognises just how much is involved he is clearly struck with the
> immensity of the task. Happily, he seems up for it. Perhaps I should send
> him to Thailand?
>
> In short, the creation of culture (including technology) is an activity that
> involves us all.
>
> Regards
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
> Research Professor
> edinburgh college of art
> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>
> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> www.littlepig.org.uk
> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>
>
>
> From: Francis Wittenberger <director@culturebase.org>
> Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:40:21 +0700
> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
>
> hi Simon,
>
> i do not agree that "Programmers good enough to do this kind of work are
> thin on the ground"
> - while i am not saying that any 'web designer' is equipped to do
> 'robotics' but there are hundreds of thousand programmers who do
> relative low-level programming and hardware - the problem is that there
> is nobody around to define for them WHAT to do - this is what i mean by
> 'talkers' - for example on this and other 'new media forums' - most if
> not all of those who discuss aren't able to define (to a programmer) what
> they are talking about - in fact, i think even they probably have no
> idea what they are talking about .. but their talk seems to enable
> university and other grants, which they spend on living normal, non
> artistic , non creative, middle class lives - that is the problem.
>
> i would suggest to aggregate funds by not granting to those who are
> unable to excel and define what what they are talking about , and
> dedicate the rest of the money to programmers and engineers who
> otherwise end up hungry on the commercial market just because they are
> not good 'talkers' enough to get academic grants.
>
> i also do not agree to the concept of "employing a single programmer is
> not going to get you very far" - if you take a close look - every good
> invention , just as any good software originate from a single mind or
> a tiny team. every efficient software was written by one person. unlike
> microsoft and alike who make money from deals and speculations creating
> ever-in-progress waste they call 'software'.
> compare that to the fact that every chip has tiny and efficient low
> level code that is virtually 100% fully debugged and error free and is
> result of work by a single programmer or a tiny team - this is why chips
> and CPUs work unlike 'MS office' that is forever "one version short of
> being finished"
>
> no computer or phone , or a hard disk would work today without every
> part being close to perfect on its own - the problem lies in the
> inability of programmers to link with artists (or free their own mind by
> other means), and the inability of academics and artists to pinpoint
> what type of integrated sub-systems to compile of the parts;
>
> the cases in which things work are the cases where the programmer was
> somewhat an artist, or an artist who pushed himself to actually code his
> creative thought.
>
> i do agree that more then one person or programmer would be required to
> realize a robotic project, but that is also true to publishing a book
> for example - normally a small team lead by a visionary is the best way.
>
> blindly accepting (or promoting) the idea that many top programmers and
> lots of rare resources are a must to make an innovative step - is bad
> for us who want to get down to the work and innovate - because every
> time we approach an institute or company they think to themselves 'i better
> keep distance from those crazy artists who need millions of dollars and
> for their crazy future projects' - while in fact - no more then a team
> of 3-4 developers and 1-2 artists are required to prototype ANY invention
> and the funds can be as low as really basic requirements - after all,
> true artists and creative people do what they do out of urge - and not
> for the money :)
>
> - -
>
> regards from thailand,
> francis
>
>
>
>
> > Programmers good enough to do this kind of work are thin on the ground and
> > valuable. I wish we had a few. I mean, we do, but they are all busily
> > employed on well funded research projects and have very little time for more
> > speculative and less well funded work. Those that do are special. We could
> > do with a lot more.
> >
> > I missed your call for a robotics programmer so am not sure what you were
> > looking for, but one observation I would make about development work in this
> > field is that employing a single programmer is not going to get you very
> > far. Robotics is one of the most multi-disciplinary and demanding of
> > technical areas. You need different kinds of programmers for different
> > aspects of the systems (sensing algorithms are very different to those
> > required for motor control). You also need engineers with various skill-sets
> > as well as specialists from other areas (computational linguistics, computer
> > vision, networking, micro-electronics, psychology, etc).
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> > Simon Biggs
> > Research Professor
> > edinburgh college of art
> > s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> > www.eca.ac.uk
> > www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> >
> > simon@littlepig.org.uk
> > www.littlepig.org.uk
> > AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
> >
> >
> >
> > From: <director@culturebase.org>
> > Reply-To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:19:15 +0700
> > To: <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] cyborgs skin and programmers
> >
> >
> > Sawasdee
> >
> > re. Digital Skin
> >
> > MAF Thailand (2005)
> > http://culturebase.org/home/thailand/MAF05/viewpage.php?menu_item=A_festival
> > _theme
> > http://culturebase.org/home/thailand/MAF05/viewpage.php?menu_item=B_maf_imag
> > es
> >
> > re. Cyborgs discussion
> >
> > everybody here TALKING about cyborgs but funny enough there were ZERO
> > programmers responding to my call "seeking hardcore programmer"
> >
> > i wonder what is this discussion all about and who is going to do the
> > work;
> >
> > it seems there is not a single hardware engineer or a serious programmer
> > reading this list - or?
> >
> > perhaps the heads of departments, historians, academics, philosophers and
> > talkers should unite with a FUND to hire programmers to do something
> > about all this talk..?
> >
> > hope to hear opinions
> >
> > best regards from thailand
> > francis
> >
> > Re.
> > > Hi Avi
> > >
> > > Thank you for your "Digital Skin".
> > > If Cyberspace is our skin, our body is a Network-body and a flat
> > > screen. If my memory is good, this made you say in a previous post
> > > that we are all cyborgs. At the same time there is a resistance to
> > > that. Actual matter resists to being resumed to digital matter.
> > > Thickness resists to being resumed to 2-dimensions. Physical bodies
> > > resist to being resumed to images. This resistence interests me.
> > > Things are not just flowing. They also scratch and scream. And cyborgs
> > > are not just the bright future of a superhumanity !
> > >
> > > In the 1970s, Jean-Fran�ois Lyotard wrote about "The great ephemeral
> > > skin" in his book Libidinal Economy (Theories of Contemporary
> > > Culture). He was describing it as a carnal extrusion and a virtual
> > > membrane where the world and our desires would meet. It is "ephemeral"
> > > because it is in constant mutation. Cyberspace is like this "great
> > > ephemeral skin", just as language is.
> > >
> > > Here is an intersting artwork where the human body is scanned,
> > > fragmented and recomposed through machines and softwares which pervert
> > > the idea of mapping (GoogleEarth)
> > > http://www.locurto-outcault.com/index.html
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > St�phane
> > >
> > > Le 22 juil. 09 � 07:12, Avi Rosen a �crit :
> > >
> > > > Hi St�phane,
> > > > Very interesting subject "Epithelia, Creative Skins"...
> > > > I made some artworks on this theme: "Digital Skin 2" -
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIO5bnV4i6E
> > > >
> > > > "The Cyberspace is an extension of the human foot, eye and the skin.
> > > > The
> > > > electronic gadgets and the data sphere are Galactic immediate Torus
> > > > like
> > > > extension of the human central nervous system, and the stage of
> > > > 'Digital
> > > > Skin' performance. It creates virtual extension of Marcel Duchamp's
> > > > unfinished "Big Glass" piece, his voice (manipulated by the speed of
> > > > light)on the video explains it. The transparent Cyberbody (digital
> > > > mummy) is
> > > > located eternally in cyberspace superposition. The departure and
> > > > arrival are
> > > > compressed to a singularity(Paul Virilio), on the digital skin's
> > > > surface.
> > > > 'Digital Skin 2' video sequence is bricolage of my endless virtual
> > > > voyages (
> > > > 'Digital Skin' is another example of such trajectory) in cyberspace,
> > > > superimposing personal data on public data base (Goggle Earth and
> > > > Sky). My
> > > > body digital data strips, merged with the Earth and cosmos digital
> > > > data
> > > > strips produced by the satellites and telescopes. The digitalization
> > > > of the
> > > > universe and our body transformed it to a flat image displayed on the
> > > > computer monitor ('Digital Skin').The digital video sequences are
> > > > the MEME
> > > > for further construction \deconstruction of cyber audiovisual mutual
> > > > memory
> > > > and universal knowledge."
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Avi Rosen,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is the first time I contribute to this discussion. I am a visual
> > > > artist and art theorist. I am wrighting a book about skin as a
> > > > creative process ( "Epithelia, Creative Skins", "Les peaux cr�atrices"
> > > > in French).
> > > >
> > > >
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