thanks for your uplifting message:)
i think there is a difference between technological advance and human
progress. the belief that "technological advance leads to human
progress" is a very materialistic approach, takes the tool as the end
(not the means) and is highly result/product oriented. a more
progressive human mind would take technology/machines/add-ons just as
tools, would not seek redemption in them and would not end up being just
an obedient user since the focus is on process, not the final product.
if you are just a user, technology turns you into a slave and you just
consume what's given. but if you go beyond this and take advantage of
technology for your mental evolution, material presence is just a base
for spiritual metamorphosis that, in turn, leads to a relatively more
progressive physical/physiological/biological/mechanical mutation. so
the name of the great leonardo conference that took place in prague in
2007; i.e. "mutamorphosis", is actually a great term to sort of
summarize this process:)
all the best,
murat
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On 7/22/09 1:13 PM, Veroniki Korakidou wrote:
> Dear Murat,
> Please don't stop this discussion. Not at his point, I think that
> it is right now getting where it actually should.
> By the way, I was not the least offended by you, not at all. You did
> not write this article, it was pretty clear that you have been
> schocked by at as well, as any of us would :-)
> Art, science and politics always come together, this is a fact
> embedded in human social behaviour. What could be interesting from an
> art-science perspective may be at the same time dangerous or harmful
> for society - it is a matter of different rhetoric, different
> manifestation.
> An artist may have an extreme point of view - make an extreme
> statement, it sounds sooo different when it comes to facts in real
> life :-))
> A scientist on the other hand, may be interested only in the
> innovation part of an invention and the technical complexity of the
> new machine. What it is used for is an issue of politics.
> I wish I could just blame this issue on you, then we could simply stop
> this discussion, close our eyes and forget about all war happening
> around the globe, - hopefully - somewhere else, as far away from
> whrere "we" live as possible :-))
> But I can't, this is not possible, so please, don't stop this
> discussion, not on my account, anyway :-)
> What I was trying to formulate in my previous e-mail, is what kind of
> society do we want to live in, how can we co-exist with the enviroment
> without harming it...what kind of art expresses these ideas...how can
> we involve technology?
> I never was a fan of a post-human condition, I still think that
> humanism is an un-finished business, machines are for me mere
> artefacts. I can understand why someone may be fascinated by the idea
> of perfect "human-like" machines, but these ideas are for me so
> old-fashioned and 'futuristic" that I can only recognize some
> aesthetic value to them, only as a theme for a retro exhibition.
> This is why I was so schocked by this article, and I really wish to
> thank you for it, what I would probably expect out of this discussion,
> now that politics are finally emerging as a core discussion topic,
> is adding a new argument for social thinking that could be a driving
> force to a better art/society and human/environment co-exisitng debate.
> My sincere apologies for not making myself previously clear :-)
> All the best,
> Veroniki
>
>
> --- Στις *Τετ., 22/07/09, ο/η Murat Germen
> /<muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu>/* έγραψε:
>
>
> Από: Murat Germen <muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu>
> Θέμα: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Flesh-eating military robots turn
> vegetarian...
> Προς: "Veroniki Korakidou" <vkorakidou@yahoo.gr>, "YASMIN
> DISCUSSIONS" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>, "ekmelertan"
> <eertan@a-m-b-e-r.org>
> Ημερομηνία: Τετάρτη, 22 Ιούλιος 2009, 9:34
>
> dear veroniki,
>
> maybe i am misunderstood. i do not see any irony at all in what
> this article tells us. on the contrary, i sent this article to
> show how far the notion of "cyborg" can go; actually, i was deeply
> shocked when i read the content. i am the one who first took the
> discussion to the military realm in order to remind that life is
> not all about art, creativity and technology...
>
> by the way, i think no war can be presented as politically correct...
>
> one last point with my apologies. if there is a mechanization
> dimension in the notion of cyborg, one should also think about
> equality in employment. there is a very serious economical crisis
> going on in the world. if cyborgness will add superiority to
> prospective employees and be subject of priority, is it really
> fair to become/make half/full cyborgs? what about people who do
> not have access, and more importantly enough money to be operated
> to take advantage of the "positive" cyborg features richly listed
> in previous messages? does the pitiless and money-driven logic
> prevail here too?
>
> anyway, i think i should stop at this point since it seems this
> kind of content is not welcome...
> sincere regards veroniki, thanks for enabling to avoid
> misunderstandings:)
>
> <<< +90 532 473 8970 (gsm mobile)
> <<< murat@muratgermen.com
> <http://gr.mc233.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=murat@muratgermen.com>
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>
> 2009/7/22 Veroniki Korakidou <vkorakidou@yahoo.gr
> <http://gr.mc233.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vkorakidou@yahoo.gr>>
>
> Dear Murat, Ekmel and all,
> I was enjoying this discussion, until I saw this
> article...does this mean that a non- anthropocentric
> (save-the-planet) point of view makes war politically correct?
> What kind of an emerging rhetoric could possibly so rapidly
> turn things upside down? It is all right to kill each other,
> as long as our robots are enviromentally friendly?
> Is this what post-humanism is all aboutt?
> In Donna Haraway's "Manifesto for Cyborgs", there was a
> distinct irony about women and the third wave movement, labor
> turning into services, everyobody wired in their machines, the
> "new" way of production and consumption.
> However, it is a different issue when we speak of art, of
> science or humanism. I don't actually see any irony in this
> article.
> Maybe I am missing all the fun :-)
> All the best
> Veroniki
>
> --- Στις *Τρίτ., 21/07/09, ο/η Murat Germen
> /<muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu
> <http://gr.mc233.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu>>/*
> έγραψε:
>
>
> Από: Murat Germen <muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu
> <http://gr.mc233.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=muratgermen@sabanciuniv.edu>>
> Θέμα: [Yasmin_discussions] Flesh-eating military robots
> turn vegetarian...
> Προς: "YASMIN DISCUSSIONS"
> <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> <http://gr.mc233.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>>
> Ημερομηνία: Τρίτη, 21 Ιούλιος 2009, 11:37
>
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jul/20/flesh-eating-robot-vegetarian
>
> --
> <<< +90 532 473 8970 (gsm mobile)
> <<< muratgermen@gmail.com
> <http://gr.mc233.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=muratgermen@gmail.com>
> <<< http://www.muratgermen.com <http://www.muratgermen.com/>
> <<< http://www.flickr.com/photos/muratgermen/
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>
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